Barzal vs Marner

[The Winter Soldier]

So it would be fact to say that Barzal was only able to achieve those point totals thanks to being sheltered by Tavares. I say this based on something you said in another thread:

Glad you read that. But my post was more rhetorical as @Riseonfire noted. It seems to be a one way argument with Leafs fans. Point made. Glad you are consistent Marner's production is sheltered and dependent on Tavares this year. Lord knows we heard this constantly last year for Barzal's production.

Also Marner has already outproduced Barzals best season, didn't you say something about actual point production trumping anything?

Not as a rookie. Barzal has outproduced Marner 85-61, and as a 2nd year player they are very close. 69-63 while Barzal has played on an air tight defensive team.

 

[BayStreetBully]

In fairness, all this tells you is who is better this season.

Their career points per game works out to:
Marner - 0.929 (222 points in 239 games)
Barzal - 0.896 (147 points in 164 games)

Over 82 games, they average:
Marner - 76 points
Barzal - 73 points

I personally give the edge to Marner for the reasons I outlined in my first post in this thread when it was originally created, but the only way there's a massive gap like you're trying to portray is if you ignore everything except this season.

Couple problems with your post:

1) Marner played a full season in the NHL as a 19 year old. Barzal didn’t. If he did, he may not have reached 40 points, thus bringing his career average down. Heck, maybe not even 30 points. We can only speculate, since NYI chose not to dress him as a 19 year old. Not good enough for the NHL at that time? Speculate as you may.

2) Marner is no longer a 60 point player. Seems disingenuous to bring down his career average numbers by including numbers which aren’t even reflective of him anymore. Marner is a 90 point player now. In contrast, we do know that Barzal is a 60 point player right now.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Would also add, I give the positional advantage to Barzal. It is a lot harder playing Center in the NHL than on the wing. Don't think anyone would argue this.

 

[X66]

Can Barzal fanboys finally admit that Tavares sheltered Barzal and that Weight let him cheat?

Now that the has a real coach the numbers went down, no surprise, the Islanders are better off for it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Couple problems with your post:

1) Marner played a full season in the NHL as a 19 year old. Barzal didn’t. If he did, he may not have reached 40 points, thus bringing his career average down. Heck, maybe not even 30 points. We can only speculate, since NYI chose not to dress him as a 19 year old. Not good enough for the NHL at that time? Speculate as you may.

And in comparisons between Marner and a player who played as an 18 year old rookie, are we going to drop Marner's career average down as well to assume he'd get 30 points? So did I overestimate Marner's career averages because I didn't include some wacky, made up assumption that he'd score 30 points if he played in the NHL at age 18?

This is just weird logic. Who cares who was more NHL-ready earlier? What matters is how each produce when they finally make it, and when you compare those actual totals (and not these hypothetical if Mat Barzal played at age 18 or 19 stuff), their career numbers are as above.

2) Marner is no longer a 60 point player. Seems disingenuous to bring down his career average numbers by including numbers which aren’t even reflective of him anymore. Marner is a 90 point player now. In contrast, we do know that Barzal is a 60 point player right now.

So your argument boils down to we know what type of player Marner is based on his best season, and we know what type of player Barzal is based on his worst season? Speaking of the word disingenuous.

Why do you assume that what each player produced this year is what they are going forward? Why do you assume that Barzal will forever be the 60 point player he is this year and not the 80 point player he was last year going forward?

 

[Kamiccolo]

And in comparisons between Marner and a player who played as an 18 year old rookie, are we going to drop Marner's career average down as well to assume he'd get 30 points? So did I overestimate Marner's career averages because I didn't include some wacky, made up assumption that he'd score 20 points if he played in the NHL at age 18?

This is just weird logic. Who cares who was more NHL-ready earlier? What matters is how each produce when they finally make it, and when you compare those actual totals (and not these hypothetical if Mat Barzal played at age 18 or 19 stuff), their career numbers are as above.



So your argument boils down to we know what type of player Marner is based on his best season, and we know what type of player is based on his worst season? Speaking of the word disingenuous.

Why do you assume that what each player produced this year is what they are going forward? Why do you assume that Barzal will forever be the 60 point player he is this year and not the 80 point player he was last year going forward?

Except Marner broke out last year. He played at a 90 point pace in Jan on on a line with Kadri and JVR. It's more than 1 good year of sample size for Marner.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

And in comparisons between Marner and a player who played as an 18 year old rookie, are we going to drop Marner's career average down as well to assume he'd get 30 points? So did I overestimate Marner's career averages because I didn't include some wacky, made up assumption that he'd score 30 points if he played in the NHL at age 18?

This is just weird logic. Who cares who was more NHL-ready earlier? What matters is how each produce when they finally make it, and when you compare those actual totals (and not these hypothetical if Mat Barzal played at age 18 or 19 stuff), their career numbers are as above.



So your argument boils down to we know what type of player Marner is based on his best season, and we know what type of player Barzal is based on his worst season? Speaking of the word disingenuous.

Why do you assume that what each player produced this year is what they are going forward? Why do you assume that Barzal will forever be the 60 point player he is this year and not the 80 point player he was last year going forward?

in the context of deciding who's better now, sure. In the context of looking at career numbers, it's skewed to be advantageous to the player who started playing later

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Except Marner broke out last year. He played at a 90 point pace in Jan on on a line with Kadri and JVR. It's more than 1 good year of sample size for Marner.

But we've only got two years as a sample size for Barzal as well. One in which he scored 85 points, the other in which he has 62 (in 80 games). My point is, why are people concluding that Barzal is closer to the 62 point guy than the 85 point guy?

Do people forget Nathan MacKinnon and how he dipped in his sophomore year? Do you know how silly people look now if they made statements about MacKinnon never being more than a ~50 point guy based on his sophomore/third year?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

in the context of deciding who's better now, sure. In the context of looking at career numbers, it's skewed to be advantageous to the player who started playing later

So take out Marner's 19 year old season and just do his career average from his 20 and 21 year old season, if you think playing as a 19 year old skews it that much.

 

[Kamiccolo]

But we've only got two years as a sample size for Barzal as well. One in which he scored 85 points, the other in which he has 62 (in 80 games). My point is, why are people concluding that Barzal is closer to the 62 point guy than the 85 point guy?

Do people forget Nathan MacKinnon and how he dipped in his sophomore year? Do you know how silly people look now if they made statements about MacKinnon never being more than a ~50 point guy based on his sophomore/third year?

I don't even know what to tell you. If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. We have no way to know if Barzal had last season or this season as a fluke. We know Marner has 1.5 seasons of high level play.

When I watch the Islanders, Barzal has flashes that make me think he will be a PPG center. Very similar kinds of games. However Marner is easily the best player on the ice most nights. I just think Marner is incredible and I think he will be better than a lot of players going forward.

I'd take Marner over Matthews without even hesitating and I take Matthews over Barzal.

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

If you want to include them for your argument, I have no problem HavocWreaker I think your Leafs alias was at some point. It doesn't really change the context of the 5v5 GA60 stats I posted.

that was my old username but i dont see how that has any relation to the topic at hand?

and having one of the best goals agasint league wide i would wager many islanders players have a low ga number in general and its not a barzal only thing.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't even know what to tell you. If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. We have no way to know if Barzal had last season or this season as a fluke. We know Marner has 1.5 seasons of high level play.

When I watch the Islanders, Barzal has flashes that make me think he will be a PPG center. Very similar kinds of games. However Marner is easily the best player on the ice most nights. I just think Marner is incredible and I think he will be better than a lot of players going forward.

I'd take Marner over Matthews without even hesitating and I take Matthews over Barzal.

Not sure what this has to do with my posts, considering I literally said I'd give the edge to Marner and if you read my first post in this thread, outline what Marner has that I think Barzal is currently lacking.

My original point is this idea there's this MASSIVE GAP based on judging them ENTIRELY on what they produced this year. That's my issue. Not that Marner isn't better. Not that Marner isn't a guy who can score 90+ points most seasons. Just this argument that there's a massive gap because of this season's production, and this season ONLY.

 

[BayStreetBully]

And in comparisons between Marner and a player who played as an 18 year old rookie, are we going to drop Marner's career average down as well to assume he'd get 30 points? So did I overestimate Marner's career averages because I didn't include some wacky, made up assumption that he'd score 30 points if he played in the NHL at age 18?

This is just weird logic. Who cares who was more NHL-ready earlier? What matters is how each produce when they finally make it, and when you compare those actual totals (and not these hypothetical if Mat Barzal played at age 18 or 19 stuff), their career numbers are as above.



So your argument boils down to we know what type of player Marner is based on his best season, and we know what type of player Barzal is based on his worst season? Speaking of the word disingenuous.

Why do you assume that what each player produced this year is what they are going forward? Why do you assume that Barzal will forever be the 60 point player he is this year and not the 80 point player he was last year going forward?

1) I’m not the one averaging their career numbers to begin with, because I know it’s Useless with a capital U.

2) I’m not being selective by considering their best or worst years, like you wish to do. I’m using their most recent year. I’m not disingenuous enough to think their rookie year matters as much as their most recent year. If Barzal had 2 great seasons before having a massive setback like this year? Fine. But not after merely one good rookie year- may have been a fluke for all we know. At least with Marner, we see a continuous upward trajectory, so we don’t assume it’s a fluke until proven otherwise. Barzal is a fluke until proven otherwise.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Both great players. I'll take Barzal for obvious reasons. But for a comparison of sheer individual output with respect to their team's output:

Total team G-A-P awarded 18-19 (through 80 games):
TOR: 280 - 473 - 753
NYI: 219 - 364 - 583

Marner: 25-67-92
Barzal: 18-44-62

Percentage of total team G-A-P:
Marner: 8.9% - 14.2% - 12.2%
Barzal: 8.2% - 12.1% - 10.6%

 

[Nithoniniel]

Not sure what this has to do with my posts, considering I literally said I'd give the edge to Marner and if you read my first post in this thread, outline what Marner has that I think Barzal is currently lacking.

My original point is this idea there's this MASSIVE GAP based on judging them ENTIRELY on what they produced this year. That's my issue. Not that Marner isn't better. Not that Marner isn't a guy who can score 90+ points most seasons. Just this argument that there's a massive gap because of this season's production, and this season ONLY.

Seems very fair to me. I think this season will look like an outlier soon enough for Barzal. He does too many things too well for him to not produce at a higher level, regardless of system. And I don't feel like Trotz is utilizing him as well as he could.

 

[IPS]

Boy do people bend over backwards to justify their bias when Leafs are on the better end of polls

Barzal's got a lot of work to do to earn his spot back in this poll.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

that was my old username but i dont see how that has any relation to the topic at hand?

and having one of the best goals agasint league wide i would wager many islanders players have a low ga number in general and its not a barzal only thing.

That's because I remember your old alias and how your posts would lean more in the direction of your team affiliation. Not trying to call you out, but I want you to know I know who you were.

Obviously playing for a more conscientious defensive team is going to affect points production. But Barzal has been fine this year. He is the #1C and leading scorer on a 99 pts team this year. He doesn't have as talented a top 6 as Marner has to play with. Now Marner is a fine talent too. I think Hunter did a good job taking at #4. Expectations are higher for him than Barzal based on draft position. For me if talent is similar you always go with the Center. To me these 2 will always be close points wise in their careers. When talent is more equal surrounding these 2, I believe this will be even more evident. Barzal should have 60+ assists again this season, if he could have someone finish for him. Maybe he gets this this summer.

 

[IPS]

That's because I remember your old alias and how your posts would lean more in the direction of your team affiliation. Not trying to call you out, but I want you to know I know who you were.

Obviously playing for a more conscientious defensive team is going to affect points production. But Barzal has been fine this year. He is the #1C and leading scorer on a 99 pts team this year. He doesn't have as talented a top 6 as Marner has to play with. Now Marner is a fine talent too. I think Hunter did a good job taking at #4. Expectations are higher for him than Barzal based on draft position. For me if talent is similar you always go with the Center. To me these 2 will always be close points wise in their careers. When talent is more equal surrounding these 2, I believe this will be even more evident. Barzal should have 60+ assists again this season, if he could have someone finish for him. Maybe he gets this this summer.

Feels nice when I don't need to use wishy-washy hypotheticals to prove how blatantly superior Marner is to Barzal.

Marner was producing a superior PPG with even worse linemates than Barzal now, as a rookie with a worse team

Doesn't matter how it's spun, Marner is obviously superior.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Not sure what this has to do with my posts, considering I literally said I'd give the edge to Marner and if you read my first post in this thread, outline what Marner has that I think Barzal is currently lacking.

My original point is this idea there's this MASSIVE GAP based on judging them ENTIRELY on what they produced this year. That's my issue. Not that Marner isn't better. Not that Marner isn't a guy who can score 90+ points most seasons. Just this argument that there's a massive gap because of this season's production, and this season ONLY.

Ok that is fair. What is ironic is the same argument was used last year to support Barzal though lol.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Feels nice when I don't need to use wishy-washy hypotheticals to prove how blatantly superior Marner is to Barzal.

Marner was producing a superior PPG with even worse linemates than Barzal now, as a rookie with a worse team

Doesn't matter how it's spun, Marner is obviously superior.

Marner had 61 pts playing sheltered mins as a rookie with a proven 36 goal scorer on the #2PP team in the NHL on a run and gun team.

When has Barzal had this as a rookie. Ladd, Beauvillier? The Isles played a looser defensive game last year. But he still led the team in scoring as a rookie over a certain 11M player. Those are facts!

 

[razkaz]

Glad you read that. But my post was more rhetorical as @Riseonfire noted. It seems to be a one way argument with Leafs fans. Point made. Glad you are consistent Marner's production is sheltered and dependent on Tavares this year. Lord knows we heard this constantly last year for Barzal's production.

Except that thread was about Mackinnon, Matthews and Dahlin. How would anyone know you were being sarcastic in reference to what some Leafs posters were saying about Barzal? As you and another Isles fan have already pointed out, if you're going to make these "rhetorical" posts than be prepared to have it go the other way too. You can't control what others say but you're responsible for what you put out there. If you actually don't think this is true for either Marner or Barzal, then you wouldn't even bring it up, yet you did.

Not as a rookie. Barzal has outproduced Marner 85-61, and as a 2nd year player they are very close. 69-63 while Barzal has played on an air tight defensive team.

What does that have to do with this season and career highs? Andreas Johnsson has a better rookie year than both Point and Rantanen, guess he's better than both based on that criteria?

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

That's because I remember your old alias and how your posts would lean more in the direction of your team affiliation. Not trying to call you out, but I want you to know I know who you were.

Obviously playing for a more conscientious defensive team is going to affect points production. But Barzal has been fine this year. He is the #1C and leading scorer on a 99 pts team this year. He doesn't have as talented a top 6 as Marner has to play with. Now Marner is a fine talent too. I think Hunter did a good job taking at #4. Expectations are higher for him than Barzal based on draft position. For me if talent is similar you always go with the Center. To me these 2 will always be close points wise in their careers. When talent is more equal surrounding these 2, I believe this will be even more evident. Barzal should have 60+ assists again this season, if he could have someone finish for him. Maybe he gets this this summer.

again my team affliation shouldnt matter still, espeically since I dont vote.

im not saying barzal doesnt have the offensive talent to be a big time point getter but him having a lower ga isnt as big a deal when his whole team generally should have a low ga.

 

[IPS]

Marner had 61 pts playing sheltered mins as a rookie with a proven 36 goal scorer on the #2PP team in the NHL on a run and gun team.

When has Barzal had this as a rookie. Ladd, Beauvillier? The Isles played a looser defensive game last year. But he still led the team in scoring as a rookie over a certain 11M player. Those are facts!

Why are you bringing up Matthews? This thread isn't about him. Stay on topic please or don't involve yourself in the discussion.

The facts are facts, Marner has outscored Barzal in many different contexts and this year seems to be the ultimate back-breaker given that he's not playing any sheltered minutes, he's a mainstay on the PK, and he's vastly outproducing Barzal in very similar circumstances. Sorry the facts don't support your opinion, stick with your vague hypotheticals about alleged sheltered minutes and "favorable" offensive teams.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Why are you bringing up Matthews? This thread isn't about him. Stay on topic please or don't involve yourself in the discussion.

The facts are facts, Marner has outscored Barzal in many different contexts and this year seems to be the ultimate back-breaker given that he's not playing any sheltered minutes, he's a mainstay on the PK, and he's vastly outproducing Barzal in very similar circumstances. Sorry the facts don't support your opinion, stick with your vague hypotheticals about alleged sheltered minutes and "favorable" offensive teams.

Why are you bringing up run and gun offences to discredit Barzal when he outscored Tavares who is paid as the 2nd highest player this year in the same run and gun offence you downplay? Got a good reply?

 

[Martin Skoula]

Marner had 61 pts playing sheltered mins as a rookie with a proven 36 goal scorer on the #2PP team in the NHL on a run and gun team.

When has Barzal had this as a rookie. Ladd, Beauvillier? The Isles played a looser defensive game last year. But he still led the team in scoring as a rookie over a certain 11M player. Those are facts!

When Marner had 61 points, JVR had not scored 36 goals yet. He was not a proven 36 goal scorer. If you're going to lie and invent facts, please remove yourself from the discussion :~)