Barzal vs Marner

[razkaz]

I'm going to try and reply using your own quotes

This is just weird logic. Who cares who was more NHL-ready earlier? What matters is how each produce when they finally make it, and when you compare those actual totals (and not these hypothetical if Mat Barzal played at age 18 or 19 stuff), their career numbers are as above.

Why would you use entire career numbers for Draisaitl? You're intentionally handicapping him by including his 9 points in 37 games rookie season, where it was clear he wasn't ready for the NHL at that point. Even including his 51 point second year is a bit questionable given the fact he's shown he's taken his game to another level since then.

If you want to "average out" what you can expect from Draisaitl next year, it would be more accurate to focus on his past three seasons -- 77, 70 and 99 points -- as they're the most reflective of what he's likely to be during his prime years. Doing the math, his average is 1.04 PPG (246 points in 236 games), or 85 points over a full 82 games.

Your including his rookie totals completely fails to account for the fact Draisaitl isn't that player anymore. It would be like trying to predict what Nikita Kucherov will score next year and using his 18 point rookie season as part of the calculations.

So your argument boils down to we know what type of player Marner is based on his best season, and we know what type of player Barzal is based on his worst season? Speaking of the word disingenuous.

Why do you assume that what each player produced this year is what they are going forward? Why do you assume that Barzal will forever be the 60 point player he is this year and not the 80 point player he was last year going forward?

Because he's closer to his "career year" than his rookie season. If the object of the exercise is to "predict what he'll produce next year", which seems the most logical? That he'll produce somewhere close to this year, or that he'll produce somewhere close to his rookie season?

So if you're trying to project/predict what Draisaitl will produce next season, why would you include what he did as a 9 point rookie in your calculations unless you believe that's a viable option for what he'll play like?

Again, if this was a "what do you think Kucherov will produce next year", would anyone in their right mind use his 18 point rookie season as part of the calculation? Or would they focus on what Kucherov has produced over the past 3 seasons as they most closely represent the type of player he currently is? So why would Draisaitl be any different?

How did I do?

 

[BayStreetBully]

I'm going to try and reply using your own quotes


How did I do?

Good Lord that’s embarrassing. It’s inconsistent flip flopping like that that make posters lose all credibility.

 

[Martin Skoula]

That's all he has - lying, fact distortion, and hypotheticals.

Literally nothing tangible to support Barzal nowadays in this comparison. He's a good talented kid for sure, but he's got no business being compared to Marner.

It's more that you can type out a well supported argument for your point and he'll pick out some tiny technicality to argue about and ignore the rest of it. Call JVR a proven 30 goal scorer as a side point, he'll have a meltdown about JVR only scoring 30 goals once and 29 goals doesn't count. As soon as JVR is a Flyer, he's a proven 36 goal scorer all of a sudden and all those arguments he made earlier seemingly never happened.

Follow his logic in this thread:

Barzal is better than Marner because he has to play in a defensive system -> Barzal put up more points than Tavares one time therefore is better than Marner -> Tavares is the 2nd highest paid player in the league -> something about run and gun offenses???

Can't make a coherent point about Barzal being better than Marner? Just change the conversation to make it about Tavares's contract instead and hope people get bored and leave.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

When Marner had 61 points, JVR had not scored 36 goals yet. He was not a proven 36 goal scorer. If you're going to lie and invent facts, please remove yourself from the discussion :~)

JVR has proven himself to be a 36 goal scorer in the NHL. You are being disingenuous if you think that is overplaying his value since most would agree he is atleast a 30 goal scorer in the NHL.

The post that inferred Marner was in no position to put up points as a rookie in a sheltered 3rd line role facing weaker D pairings and being on the #2 PP unit in the NHL is simply false.

As for the other part of my post that you ignored. That Barzal was being sheltered and he only got 85 points as a rookie, what is the difference this year with Marner, and he did outscore Tavares on that same offensive team didn't he?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm going to try and reply using your own quotes











How did I do?

Not sure what my posts about Draisaitl have to do with my argument in this thread being contradictory?

You'd have "got me" if I was arguing that Marner is closer to a 76 point player (his career average) than a 90 point player. But I didn't do that. The only reason I even brought up career averages was just to show that, at this point their careers, they've been close enough as producers that any "there is a massive gap" doesn't hold weight. It wasn't because I was arguing "LOL Marner's 90 point season isn't really what he is".

The argument for Drasaitl being closer to this year's player than his rookie year is true. So the only way I'd be contradicting myself is if I'm now saying that Marner's closer to what he was as a rookie rather than what he produced this year. Not once did I make such a claim.

 

[Martin Skoula]

JVR has proven himself to be a 36 goal scorer in the NHL. You are being disingenuous if you think that is overplaying his value since most would agree he is atleast a 30 goal scorer in the NHL.

The post that inferred Marner was in no position to put up points as a rookie in a sheltered 3rd line role facing weaker D pairings and being on the #2 PP unit in the NHL is simply false.

As for the other part of my post that you ignored. That Barzal was being sheltered and he only got 85 points as a rookie, what is the difference this year with Marner, and he did outscore Tavares on that same offensive team didn't he?

JVR was not a 36 goal scorer. He only had one single 30 goal season at that point in time. Please stop lying to everyone :~)

How is Marner being sheltered by a guy that's on his line?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

JVR was not a 36 goal scorer. He only had one single 30 goal season at that point in time. Please stop lying to everyone :~)

How is Marner being sheltered by a guy that's on his line?

Is JVR not a proven 36 goal scorer in the NHL? He is also a proven 30 goal scorer in 13-14. He has 26 in 64 games this year. Marner had more than enough talent in linemates. Are you sure you are ok today?

The Bozak, Marner, JVR line got the easiest match ups in his rookie year. Are you actually going to deny this? He also got time on the #2 PP in the NHL.

I am not seeing this argument he didn't have an opportunity to succeed argument @IPS tried to spin earlier.

Nor am I understanding the argument that Barzal was sheltered last year when Marner is not this year, nor is his 85 points season pumped up, when he outscored a proven scorer, a 11M dollar cap hit John Tavares, 85-84 as rookie on the same team and system.

Do you have any good responses to any of this?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Good Lord that’s embarrassing. It’s inconsistent flip flopping like that that make posters lose all credibility.

Read my post above. How is it contradictory? I'm NOT saying Marner shouldn't be considered a 90 point player or being dismissive of what Marner is. My argument is more on the side of people assuming that Barzal is going to be closer to a 60+ point guy than an 80+ point guy going forward based on one season.

My argument literally has nothing to do with arguing against the idea that what Marner is this year isn't reflective of what he is going forward.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Is he not a proven 36 goal scorer in the NHL? He is also a proven 30 goal scorer in 13-14. He has 26 in 64 games this year. Marner had more than enough talent in linemates. Are you sure you are ok today?

The Bozak, Marner, JVR line got the easiest match ups in his rookie year. Are you actually going to deny this? He also got time on the #2 PP in the NHL.

I am not seeing this argument he didn't have an opportunity to succeed argument @IPS tried to spin earlier.

Nor am I understanding the argument that Barzal was sheltered last year when Marner is not this year, nor is his 85 points season pumped up, when he outscored a proven scorer, a 11M dollar cap hit John Tavares, 85-84 as rookie on the same team and system.

Do you have any good responses to this?

Barzal did not play with Tavares. Tavares drew the #1 defensive matchups, Barzal got the leftovers. Tavares is currently drawing the #1 defensive matchups, and Marner is on the ice with him when that happens. Marner gets #1 defensive matchups, Barzal did not last year. I can't explain that any simpler without breaking out some crayons.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Barzal did not play with Tavares. Tavares drew the #1 defensive matchups, Barzal got the leftovers. Tavares is currently drawing the #1 defensive matchups, and Marner is on the ice with him when that happens. Marner gets #1 defensive matchups, Barzal did not last year. I can't explain that any simpler without breaking out some crayons.

You are dancing a lot around here. Now we are on to linemates. Ok. Barzal played with Ladd, a sophomore in Beauvillier who had 9 goals the year before for much of the year. Quite a difference than Hyman and Tavares agreed?

Barzal faced as tough match ups in the second half of the season when coached noticed he was the best 5v5 threat on the Islanders. The metrics will back this up any one you want to use.

So again, how was Barzal in a better position last year, where he was considered sheltered. And Marner who has better linemates, and is on a deeper team not considered sheltered.

If Barzal not outscoring Tavares as a rookie does not indicate he is as good a producer as Tavares is or better, again on the same team, same system, than you are simply ignoring the facts.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Basically I'm calling you out as misrepresenting certain players based on your bias against a certain team. You can try and hide it as much as you want but it's clear as day.

This is the best part of your quote. I literally said in this thread I'd take Marner. I think he's the better player. I've even praised Marner in multiple polls on this forum. I predicted a 90-point season out of him prior to this season.

But apparently my bias against Toronto is the reason why I'm arguing the gap between them isn't this massive chasm that Leaf fans claim there is.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think you understand the point I'm making. You are using two different sets of calculations to show player progression/career point totals because it doesn't jive with your opinion of the Leafs and their players. You are saying that Marner and Barzal are close in offensive production because of career point averages (including rookie seasons in calculations). In another thread, you said that Draisaitl is more valuable because he produces better than Matthews (not including Drai's rookie or sophomore years in the calculations for some reason). So your method of comparison has changed from one thread to another and we can all see why.

I don't believe I said Draisaitl is more valuable than Matthews because he produces better. I believe my entire argument in that thread was that you can't judge the type of player Draisaitl will be next year by including his rookie year in some kind of career average of his.

In that specific thread, my argument was that including Draisaitl's rookie season and using it as part of the calculation to determine what he'd produce next year was flawed.

In this thread, the person I quoted listed their point totals for ONLY this year as a "here's proof there's a gap". So I listed their career totals to show that there's not a gap. I didn't list it to say one was better than the other, or that you can only expect Marner to produce next year what he did as a rookie. Just that there's not as big a gap if you move the sample size beyond just one solitary year.

The OP is asking who you would pick between the two, you brought up careers as if it has any bearing on this year or are you trying to make a pick for going forward in which case career totals need to be considered to project what each player could do. You keep flip flopping on the point you're trying to make

I made no such statement about how their career averages would determine who I'd pick going forward. The fact I've said I choose Marner and listed exactly why in my original post on I believe page 1 should illustrate clearly who I'd take going forward. I only brought up career averages to counter someone who decided that ONE YEAR is the best way to compare players.

Judging players on ONE YEAR is short sighted. And bringing it back to your quotes of mine from the Draisaitl discussion, you'll notice I didn't just use Draisaitl's current year. I averaged out his last three years to factor in the possibility this is a fluke year. The person I quoted did no such thing. They used ONE year and ONE year only to determine a massive gap.

 

[MarkovsKnee]

Thread was bumped and is just trolling at this point. Closed.