Barzal vs Marner

[koyvoo]

It should be noted that Babcock matches Marner against other top lines. He had even said if Matthews was put with Marner he would need to be prepared to play against top lines.
Marner also has the best +- as a forward on the team which is pretty telling for how good he has been.

Babcock has figured out what only some of the fans have yet realized. Mitch is the man, the architect, the engine. He’s the best, most important and most dependable of all leaf forwards.

 

[AppsSyl]

Most of Barzal point regression has come from the massive system change, not so much from lack of sheltering. He took a majority of the hard match ups the second half of last season and his production went up. I dont know if Barzal will ever get back to 85 points again. His defensive play also isnt much better this year. In a vacuum, I would say Marner>Barzal right now. However in reality Isles need Barzal more than Marner and vice versa for the Leafs

So it is ok to act like he is the second coming last season with his high point totals, because he played in a system where he had no defensive conscience, but the excuse for his drop in production is that he actually has to pay attention to the other 100 feet. So where was all this logic last season when comparing him to players like Marner, who played 200 feet, but had less points. Also love how the fact he is seeing top match ups this year is underplayed, like that makes no difference. He benefited a lot from JT taking those match ups last season.
Such hypocrisy.

 

[wingnutks]

So it is ok to act like he is the second coming last season with his high point totals, because he played in a system where he had no defensive conscience, but the excuse for his drop in production is that he actually has to pay attention to the other 100 feet. So where was all this logic last season when comparing him to players like Marner, who played 200 feet, but had less points. Also love how the fact he is seeing top match ups this year is underplayed, like that makes no difference. He benefited a lot from JT taking those match ups last season.
Such hypocrisy.

I bet him "seeing top matchups" this year is nearly identical to last year, especially compared to the second half of last year.

 

[LeafGrief]

Marner has 29 more points than Barzal. How much of a premium do non-Leafs get? Can I use that in the next Matthews versus Kucherov thread?

I’m not a big proponent of +/-, but when the disparity is so great, or when a player is at such an extreme in relation to his own teammate peers and team performance, then it must be mentioned.

Ron Hainsey is +36. Auston Matthews is -1. This is not the hill I think Leafs fans should be fighting on.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Marner has 29 more points than Barzal. How much of a premium do non-Leafs get? Can I use that in the next Matthews versus Kucherov thread?



Ron Hainsey is +36. Auston Matthews is -1. This is not the hill I think Leafs fans should be fighting on.

-1 ain’t bad.

Barzal’s -15, on the other hand, is among league leaders for worst.

 

[koyvoo]

-1 ain’t bad.

Barzal’s -15, on the other hand, is among league leaders for worst.

Relative to their teammates and relative to their team’s total goal differential, they’re both awful.

 

[LeafGrief]

-1 ain’t bad.

Barzal’s -15, on the other hand, is among league leaders for worst.

Here's your post.

I’m not a big proponent of +/-, but when the disparity is so great, or when a player is at such an extreme in relation to his own teammate peers and team performance, then it must be mentioned.

The Leafs are 2nd in the league for goal differential. I think that fits your criteria if we're being fair. Barzal is is 41st from the bottom in +/-. I am sure you can find plenty of better metrics to compare the two where Marner is better. I'm an advocate for the 29 point gap myself. Ron Hainsey's +36 is the league leader by +5, the next closest is at +31. +/- is next to useless and I won't call anyone's awful or outstanding.

[mod]

 

[Beyonder91]

Here's your post.



The Leafs are 2nd in the league for goal differential. I think that fits your criteria if we're being fair. Barzal is is 41st from the bottom in +/-. I am sure you can find plenty of better metrics to compare the two where Marner is better. I'm an advocate for the 29 point gap myself. Ron Hainsey's +36 is the league leader by +5, the next closest is at +31. +/- is next to useless and I won't call anyone's awful or outstanding.

Though I get the feeling that there are some people from the 'ol ignore list populating this thread, so if you're having a cheeky laugh with them, carry on.

Absolutely... Matthews has not been that great since be came back from injury and his +- does reflect that. Anybody who is being honest with themselves knows that Matthews hasn't been much of a big factor since his injury.
The fact that Marner is going against top lines and has the best forward +- is certainly worth noting though.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Relative to their teammates and relative to their team’s total goal differential, they’re both awful.

It just means the rest of the Leafs have super good +/-, and Barzal has very bad +/-.

 

[LeafGrief]

Absolutely... Matthews has not been that great since be came back from injury and his +- does reflect that. Anybody who is being honest with themselves knows that Matthews hasn't been much of a big factor since his injury.
The fact that Marner is going against top lines and has the best forward +- is certainly worth noting though.

Matthews is the best player on the Leafs. He has 44 points in 41 games since he came back, I 'll dare say that he's a pretty big factor pretty often. He's been struggling a little for a variety of reasons, such as the Leafs forgetting how to powerplay and carrying around the corpse of Marleau. He's had games and weeks where he's looked mediocre (for him) and we haven't seen him putting in the same level of detail to his defensive game this year, but wow I take a lot of issues with that first paragraph.

There are miles better measurements for looking at the success of the Marner line, such as ToIQoC, xgf%, and HDCF%.

It just means the rest of the Leafs have super good +/-, and Barzal has very bad +/-.

I’m not a big proponent of +/-, but when the disparity is so great, or when a player is at such an extreme in relation to his own teammate peers and team performance, then it must be mentioned.

Come on.

 

[stickty111]

One player is PPG. The other has 62 points.
Matt stats inflator isn't allowed to ignore defence, and just go full out offense. When he actually is forced to play in his zone, Barzal is not as effective. He won't like it, however Barzal can't go around playing offense only hockey.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Easily Marner.

 

[garyturner3]

One player is PPG. The other has 62 points.
Matt stats inflator isn't allowed to ignore defence, and just go full out offense. When he actually is forced to play in his zone, Barzal is not as effective. He won't like it, however Barzal can't go around playing offense only hockey.

PPG is an understatement too....the guy is likely gonna hit 95 points. Barzal plays C and that's definitely an advantage in his favor, but not nearly enough to make up for the gap in offensive production Marner has over him.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

Hard not to take the play driving 1C who has proven he can produce 80+ points without an elite linemate, and is now the 1C on one of the top teams in the league. This season's production is pretty misleading due to on ice percentage variance - if Barzal enjoyed the same oiSh% as Marner (and we assume point production scaled with oiSh%), he'd have ~81 points.

Barzal's on ice shooting percentages are still way low at (7.37 at 5v5, 8.51 all situations), while Marner's are very high at 11.57 at 5v5, 13.21 all situations). So shots are going in at a 55-56% higher rate for Marner than for Barzal. Part of that is due to Marner spending time with elite finishers like Tavares and Matthews, and the other part is probably puck luck.

Beyond that, I think Barzal is just flat out more naturally talented. Marner has the better overall anticipation, but Barzal is a game breaking skater and puck carrier, is stronger on the puck, and has the better shot. Both guys have elite vision and hands, tough to pick a winner there.

This is not to take anything away from Marner who is having a terrific season and is a great player.

One year proves nothing pal

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

I would also like to point out that Marner plays on the PK now and is a great all around player. Leafs are near the bottom of the league in terms of penalties taken and his PK per game is only bout 1:23. Had leafs been near the middle of the pack or higher he would be closing in on 2 pk mins per game.

Marner also asked to be on the PK said he wants a challenge and says he can do it.

That's the kind of players with winning mentality that teams should desire.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

One year proves nothing pal

So Marner's 92 point campaign proves nothing?

Interesting.

 

[Space Coyote]

Funny how this discussion is pretty much dead this season because Marner has been better but last year the neutral fans were very active in voicing their opinion how Barzal was/is better.

2017

Matt Barzal vs Mitch Marner

2018

Barzal vs Marner

 

[BlueBaron]

Is Barzal getting votes for last year or is this all about HF not seeing talent when it is in Blue and White?

This year it is no contest and shouldn't be a poll. Long term Barzal may prove to be an equal talent but we still aren't sure what he is yet.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

So Marner's 92 point campaign proves nothing?

Interesting.

Marner’s been a 60 plus point player throughout his career and improved every year. He didn’t take one dip

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Marner’s been a 60 plus point player throughout his career and improved every year. He didn’t take one dip

He didn't dip in the first half of his sophomore season?

You know Barzal has also been a consistent 60+ point player while playing the more difficult position with much less offensive support.

 

[Stamkos4life]

Funny how last year the "nuetral" fans were so sure that barzal is much better than marner.

Chalk that up for another swing and a miss

 

[IPS]

Barzal fans / Leafs haters are well familiar with the taste of crow by this point.

Marner is so much better than Barzal it's not even funny

 

[The Kessel Run]

Marner 81 pts, +25

Barzal 52 points, -15

Like the folks have said, equal seasons, all things considered.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Both very good players, I take Marner given the choice.

 

[Los merengues]

Marner not close. Plays against top competition, PKs, Runs The PP.

Barzal was sheltered as a rookie and is having hard Time this season with top matchups.