Barkov or Matthews?

[goblin3]

I don't know why you need to create some sort of subterfuge in order to advance an extremely faulty and poorly conceived opinion.

The Panthers made the playoffs in 2015-16 and brought in two guys in Marchy and Rielly that were targeted by the analytics department later that summer. When Ekblad, Huberdeau, Barkov, Bjugstad, etc. went down with injuries in 2016-17, the entire front office overreacted and let several analytics personnel go in favour of more grittier approaches that had little to no roots in analytics.

Your front office has little to no analytical approaches, creating a cult of personality based around Dale Tallon, who has been extremely reluctant to embrace the analytics approach compared to Rowe.

Do you even know your own team?

And last season they missed by 1 point and are expected to make it this season.
And honestly that Marchessault & Smith to Vegas thing made no sense to anyone.

Anyway what's the point of this? You feel personally insulted because I prefer Barkov to Matthews?

 

[pb1300]

I don't know why you need to create some sort of subterfuge in order to advance an extremely faulty and poorly conceived opinion.

The Panthers made the playoffs in 2015-16 and brought in two guys in Marchy and Rielly that were targeted by the analytics department later that summer. When Ekblad, Huberdeau, Barkov, Bjugstad, etc. went down with injuries in 2016-17, the entire front office overreacted and let several analytics personnel go in favour of more grittier approaches that had little to no roots in analytics.

Your front office has little to no analytical approaches, creating a cult of personality based around Dale Tallon, who has been extremely reluctant to embrace the analytics approach compared to Rowe.

Do you even know your own team?

Yet you speak as if you know our team. The team still usse analytics, and still has an analytics staff, Boughner has brought it up several times. And they switched to an full fledged analytics system because our owner had no intention of being patient with Tallon, went with Rowe, who created a sour taste in the locker room, and then went back with Tallon as they saw the turmoil unfolding with the Rowe situation. Our owner meddling in our build is what set us off course for a season.

Tallon is old school I will admit, and we wouldnt be against going with someone younger to move us forward, but it will only be if he continues their current plan. Boughner is very much into technology, and using a lot of statistics and videos to coach on a per player basis, so I doubt they get away from using advanced stats anytime soon.

 

[hockeeyyy]

And last season they missed by 1 point and are expected to make it this season.
And honestly that Marchessault & Smith to Vegas thing made no sense to anyone.

Anyway what's the point of this?

You posted:

Oh but I guess these don't count, because loose puck retrievals or ESG/60 or something like that.

... which comes off as dismissing analytics that provides a clearer and more discerning picture of Matthews and Barkov's performance. It's very ironic since your team has refused to embraced the analytics revolution and have had little to show for it.

Barkov is insanely overrated by most hockey fans and only gets bumped up by the average hockey fan because of his small-market aura. He's a fantastic two-way centre, but to suggest he's on Matthews offensive level in both categories? Heh. Okay.

 

[goblin3]

You posted:



... which comes off as dismissing analytics that provides a clearer and more discerning picture of Matthews and Barkov's performance. It's very ironic since your team has refused to embraced the analytics revolution and have had little to show for it.

Barkov is insanely overrated by most hockey fans and only gets bumped up by the average hockey fan because of his small-market aura. He's a fantastic two-way centre, but to suggest he's on Matthews offensive level in both categories? Heh. Okay.

It was in response to this:

I mean y'all post made up nonsensical analytic stats that dictate barkov is a God despite scoring like 28 as a season high missing the playoffs. Its hilarious that these stats are taken as gospel on this site. Y'all prob don't watch the games you wait for the formulas to be released and froth at the mouth at what his xl240bp is

As I said I think advanced stats are fine.

 

[hockeeyyy]

Yet you speak as if you know our team. The team still usse analytics, and still has an analytics staff, Boughner has brought it up several times. And they switched to an full fledged analytics system because our owner had no intention of being patient with Tallon, went with Rowe, who created a sour taste in the locker room, and then went back with Tallon as they saw the turmoil unfolding with the Rowe situation. Our owner meddling in our build is what set us off course for a season.

Tallon is old school I will admit, and we wouldnt be against going with someone younger to move us forward, but it will only be if he continues their current plan. Boughner is very much into technology, and using a lot of statistics and videos to coach on a per player basis, so I doubt they get away from using advanced stats anytime soon.

Every team has an analytics department at this stage of the game. That's the result of the revolution in the last five years. But not every team is utilizing those resources to find an advantage. Burke is a picture perfect microcosm of what happens when you live in the old-school mentality of prioritizing size and strength over speed and skill. Tallon has fallen a bit into that trap, but not completely (see: Chicago). Having the opportunity to draft players like Kane and Toews has made it easier to hide his beliefs, but it hasn't fully obscured his distaste for it. He's made several comments about the analytics revolution over the years, and about the most he's been willing to say is that he's trying to find a balance for it.

Rowe was a fine option as a GM and had some pretty strong ideas. He's been relegated to being an advisor in your organization, and his aggressive approach to using analytics to find inefficiencies has been neutered.

Using one season to judge the impact of Rowe's decision making when you had all those injuries is pretty much impatience and shortsightedness on every level of the organization.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Matthews. His first two seasons were easily better than Barkov's, and I feel he has a higher ceiling.

 

[pb1300]

Every team has an analytics department at this stage of the game. That's the result of the revolution in the last five years. But not every team is utilizing those resources to find an advantage. Burke is a picture perfect microcosm of what happens when you live in the old-school mentality of prioritizing size and strength over speed and skill. Tallon has fallen a bit into that trap, but not completely (see: Chicago). Having the opportunity to draft players like Kane and Toews has made it easier to hide his beliefs, but it hasn't fully obscured his distaste for it. He's made several comments about the analytics revolution over the years, and about the most he's been willing to say is that he's trying to find a balance for it.

Rowe was a fine option as a GM and had some pretty strong ideas. He's been relegated to being an advisor in your organization, and his aggressive approach to using analytics to find inefficiencies has been neutered.

Using one season to judge the impact of Rowe's decision making when you had all those injuries is pretty much impatience and shortsightedness on every level of the organization.

Tallon has evolved to an extent. He still is in his caveman days, but he has opened up to the idea of analytics, as evident by how his team's coach uses advanced statistics with his players. Tallon still wants his big guys (Bjugstad/drafted Noel, who is having a monster season in the minors ATM), but he has gone away from his approach to not drafting smaller, more skilled players, or players from Europe (Barkov, Denisenko this past draft). And this current Panthers team is one of the fastest, most skilled teams in the league, not so much of that big and strong mentality that Tallon used to like.

Rowe was the one who decided to fire Gallant, and decided to take over as coach, when their were other options available, that could have gotten a better result out of the team. The Panthers had a very successful road trip in that season to get them back in the hunt, were set to start a big home stand, and got Huberdeau back during that time as well (who played huge for us then), and yet they still crapped the bed because of his inabilities behind the bench. I have an idea to why Tallon decided to move on from Marchy and Smith last summer, but I still think replacing Tallon with Rowe hampered the team more than anything. This team could have been in a much worse situation, but Tallon has gotten the ship back on track. And BTW, Rowe might be an "advisor" to Tallon, but this is Tallon's team.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Matthews. His first two seasons were easily better than Barkov's, and I feel he has a higher ceiling.

He didn't have to learn defense and was sheltered in his first year.

 

[hockeeyyy]

Tallon has evolved to an extent. He still is in his caveman days, but he has opened up to the idea of analytics, as evident by how his team's coach uses advanced statistics with his players. Tallon still wants his big guys (Bjugstad/drafted Noel, who is having a monster season in the minors ATM), but he has gone away from his approach to not drafting smaller, more skilled players, or players from Europe (Barkov, Denisenko this past draft). And this current Panthers team is one of the fastest, most skilled teams in the league, not so much of that big and strong mentality that Tallon used to like.

Rowe was the one who decided to fire Gallant, and decided to take over as coach, when their were other options available, that could have gotten a better result out of the team. The Panthers had a very successful road trip in that season to get them back in the hunt, were set to start a big home stand, and got Huberdeau back during that time as well (who played huge for us then), and yet they still crapped the bed because of his inabilities behind the bench. I have an idea to why Tallon decided to move on from Marchy and Smith last summer, but I still think replacing Tallon with Rowe hampered the team more than anything. This team could have been in a much worse situation, but Tallon has gotten the ship back on track. And BTW, Rowe might be an "advisor" to Tallon, but this is Tallon's team.

Tallon drafting Barkov might be the most important pick he has ever made, and that includes Toews and Kane (just to be clear -- he took a major risk on Barkov compared to the low risk he took on Kane and Toews). It has stabilized the organization's core, but he still struggles to find the right pieces to surround his core players with. You say that the team is one of the fastest and most skilled group in the league, but last year, they barely broke even on their goal differential.

This is why analytics is important. It cuts out the bias and shows who's providing value, who's the offensive facilitator and who's providing defensive value.

Barkov in 2017-18 (79 games)
ES Points: 44
Primary Points: 29
On-ice GF: 66
On-ice GA: 53
P1/60: 1.44

Matthews in 2017-18 (62 games)
ES Points: 45
Primary Points: 40
On-ice GF: 63
On-ice GA: 31
P1/60: 2.6

We know the story. Barkov finished with 78 points in the season, and Matthews finished with 63. We also know those numbers can be pretty misleading. Is Barkov a point per game player in his prime? Probably. He's pretty damn good. Defensively? He's a perennial Selke candidate simply based on the work he does for the rest of the team.

But based on the response in this thread, you'd think that the difference between the two players is so wide, Matthews is lucky to be in this conversation.

It's crazy. Absolutely crazy.

As I said I think advanced stats are fine.

If that's the case, you should be more willing to accept the offensive disparity between Matthews and Barkov is extremely wide compared to their defensive talents. Certainly, we can all agree that Barkov has the edge defensively though; even if the stats don't really bear that out at the moment.

 

[HarryLime]

Now Barkov is a bigger pick than guys that have won 3 cups with Chicago...... Good grief HF


fake analytics defensive stats > cup rings and conn smythe awards

 

[hockeeyyy]

Now Barkov is a bigger pick than guys that have won 3 cups with Chicago...... Good grief HF


fake analytics defensive stats > cup rings and conn smythe awards

It was mostly referencing that Toews and Kane were obvious picks, but Barkov was the biggest home-run swing he's made. Barkov was a huge risk, considering the crazy hype Drouin had, and Jones right in the mix for second overall.

It wasn't clear on my part. My bad.

 

[HarryLime]

It was mostly referencing that Toews and Kane were obvious picks, but Barkov was the biggest home-run swing he's made. Barkov was a huge risk, considering the crazy hype Drouin had, and Jones right in the mix for second overall.

I get it but it's just wrong to say that. I wasn't surprised when Barkov went there. If the draft was in April I would have been but Jones stock went down and Barkov's went up considerably leading up to the draft. It was the right pick though. Barkov will likely retire the best Panther of all time if he stays there for his career. Bobby Lou might give him a run but unfortunately for him he played on mostly bad teams.

 

[hockeeyyy]

I get it but it's just wrong to say that. I wasn't surprised when Barkov went there. If the draft was in April I would have been but Jones stock went down and Barkov's went up considerably leading up to the draft. It was the right pick though. Barkov will likely retire the best Panther of all time if he stays there for his career.

And I don't think anyone will argue that. But the point is that Barkov, for all his incredible depth of skill, isn't the obvious choice between him and Matthews.

Ironically, in the seven or eight games that they've played against each other, it's been pretty even between the two of them.

 

[gamer1035]

LMAO. HF at its finest.

 

[DieTomi]

Matthews will outscore Barkov every single year for the rest of his career.

 

[Sojourn]

I'm not trying hard at all. just pointing out the simple, amusing truth -you voted Matthews, but have been arguing non stop that Barkov is better.

that is YOU trying way, way too hard.

Sure it is.

 

[FinlandPanther]

Matthews will outscore Barkov every single year for the rest of his career.

LOL

 

[34]

Matthews will outscore Barkov every single year for the rest of his career.

Yup.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

Matthews will outscore Barkov every single year for the rest of his career.

I guess Barkov has no say in this.

 

[BAM]

I guess Barkov has no say in this.

It took Barkov 5 seasons to reach the offensive output Matthews did in his second with significantly more ice-time lmao...yes, offensively speaking, pretty good bet that Matthews outscores Barkov going forward.

 

[Stephen]

Barkov is quite the talent and is evolving into quite the hipster pick, but he wasn't anywhere near the impact player Matthews was coming out of the gate.

 

[Fire Benning]

Matthews but it's insanely close.

 

[Semantics]

LMAO. HF at its finest.

Haha yeah, Barkov is one of the best centers in the game, but as I said in another thread:

"I'm jealous of the Leafs, so I'm going to make a fool of myself, that'll show 'em!!!" - half of HF posters

 

[Ryan Michaels]

He didn't have to learn defense

So dumb. I'm not going to get involved in this thread because I like Barkov and its really close, and Leaf polls are the worst place on earth. But this is just so dumb. Like you should delete it, and feel bad.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Barkov is quite the talent and is evolving into quite the hipster pick, but he wasn't anywhere near the impact player Matthews was coming out of the gate.

Well that settles it. Matthews had the better start. Someone should have told the Sedins they were always going to be behind all of the quick starters.