Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge

[Crazy_Ike]

Mod edit: delete

Another great article showing that not everyone was bedazzled by the song and dance.

http://www.nationalpost.com/rss/story.html?id=1668112

"I do not understand why fans in Edmonton and Ottawa, in particular, would be cheering the prospect of a team being sold to the highest bidder and moved to the most convenient place," said Rod Bryden, the former owner of the Ottawa Senators. "There are undoubtedly places in North America where a franchise, if it is managed the same way as it is in Ottawa -- or Edmonton -- would be worth more than where it is now."

 

[Kritter471]

A few points , comparing NFL - NHL is not possible NFL does so well on tv they can afford to have no fans show up and still survive so lets not use that one
Hockey is about as popular in Canada as NFL is in USA it owns our sports landscape
and as for hamilton and area it is huge untapped market which has been wanting NHL hockey for a very long time and will have no issues succeeding it has no real competition and corporate support is on JBs side now he has also built a very strong business in his own right and will draw others who like his success and want to be along for the ride i do think they would do well and i have been all through S ontario often , i will also put to you how i have seen the Cowboys play in dallas 3 times and Texas A&M also at home tell me how the NFL and big college succeed in same markets i watched aggies with what 70k in seats there if you are correct thats NFL money being lost or is there enough support for a lot of football in the region
As for Winnipeg well it would be nice to see but i am not so sure it has population its still 600-800 k range and not near as much corporate support as Hamilton would find so i think it would create another bad ending as of now , one day i hope that is possible im just not sure it is yet.
As for Leafs and the big franchise well fans there have had enough they cant buy tickets you wait to inherit or get a freinds giveaways and for that you get 40 yrs of losers i worked in Ont and i was told many would love a team in rival range who could fill a void , after all those points i do beleive it does not really matter GB hates Canada complete hatred so wont matter what we do

Trying to interpert this the best I can.

NFL teams must sell out their stadiums to be on TV (blackout rule) so I'm not following your logic of "it'd be okay if no fans came" other than if you're saying "this league works in these scenarios because of massive money from TV deals" which is precisely my point. The scenario wouldn't work in the NHL because the money isn't there.

Texas A&M is nowhere near Dallas. The two "major" college football teams in DFW get little to no support. It's kinda down near Houston, and it's as clannish as a team/school can be. Aggies get support from other Aggies, not corporations in that area of Texas. College football is another huge part of the reason the NFL won't touch Austin (Texas is too ingrained in the fans and corporate culture - the NFL wouldn't stand a chance). Also, in cities were they do somewhat thrive side by side, a lot of it has to do with alcohol sponsorships. NCAA teams can't take money from beer companies.

And if Bettman hated Canada, Edmonton, Ottawa and Calgary would be long gone. I don't know if he goes to bed at night under a poster of a maple leaf, but this whole "he hates Canada" spiel is an excuse for the mismanagement of the Jets and Nordiques that led to their moving south, and those situations were already unraveling well before he became commissioner. Does he hate Hartford too?

 

[Bitterman]

For consistency sake, every potential new market would have an NHL-specified (using court-based formula) relocation fee. That fee would almost assuredly be different for each market.

And that's where I see a problem with this scenario. Regardless of whatever "fee" the formula came up with for each bidding city, the highest overall bid will still come from a SO team that can generate the revenues to justify said bid.

IF this truly does go to auction I just don't see how the NHL could stop a SO bidder (One even has a warchest of $1 billion) from winning unless they disallowed all SO teams to enter the auction. A PR disaster will massive blowback. The same result if they select a lower bid from a US city to keep it away from SO.

 

[bbud]

I cant wait till the fans on GBs side realize he really only wants Canadians tv money and for them to shut up and be happy with being allowed to watch, we will never see a cup won by a Canadian team as long as he runs this game .
The more you buy in the less chance we get close to fair shake so its simple if you are Canadian and see what has been done since GB has been here think of 20 more yrs of his leadership , based on PHo not succeeding due to being losers we will have no teams left but Leafs if this continues

 

[bbud]

Bettman has lied to us time and time again IKE i dont know why you take pleasure in him winning when all he cares about is using canada like wall street used investors nothing more than take their money till its gone then sell them off and spit them out

 

[Crazy_Ike]

Looks like the thread is breaking.

And that's where I see a problem with this scenario. Regardless of whatever "fee" the formula came up with for each bidding city, the highest overall bid will still come from a SO team that can generate the revenues to justify said bid.

IF this truly does go to auction I just don't see how the NHL could stop a SO bidder (One even has a warchest of $1 billion) from winning unless they disallowed all SO teams to enter the auction. A PR disaster will massive blowback. The same result if they select a lower bid from a US city to keep it away from SO.

A SO bidder would not necessarily be the bid best able to satisfy the creditors, as relocating costs huge amounts of money to both the relocation-fee demanding NHL and the broken lease to Glendale.

If Glendale were able to demand 250m, and the NHL required a 150m relocation fee, a 150m bid to stay in the city would be better than a 500m bid to move it in the eyes of the bankruptcy court. The NHL's rights were reaffirmed and Glendale's supported, though no numbers given, so that's where things stand.

 

[NotBad*]

Bettman hardly put up a fight for edmonton when Huston was Knocking on the door. Instead it was a plea from locals who answered the call. 13.5k Season tickets and 32 owners later we fought to keep the oilers from moving not Bettman.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Bettman hardly put up a fight for edmonton when Huston was Knocking on the door. Instead it was a plea from locals who answered the call. 13.5k Season tickets and 32 owners later we fought to keep the oilers from moving not Bettman.

difference was EDM didn't declare bankruptcy nor had any of us heard of JB

 

[Crazy_Ike]

Bettman hardly put up a fight for edmonton when Huston was Knocking on the door. Instead it was a plea from locals who answered the call. 13.5k Season tickets and 32 owners later we fought to keep the oilers from moving not Bettman.

Flat out incorrect. Cal Nichols gave Bettman huge kudos for allowing the no-owner collection of investors to take control of the Oilers, something against the rules of most the other major leagues.

Bettman took a huge risk by letting the Oilers be purchased by a 38 headed monster but felt it was worth taking a chance on it to avoid losing another Canadian team.

Nichols was one of Bettman's strongest supporters during the second lockout.

For most of the 1990s, the Oilers were desperately trying to stay alive. In 1998, the team was nearly sold to Houston interests who sought to move the team, but before the sale was finalized, and with just hours left on the deadline, the Edmonton Investors Group, a consortium of 37 Edmonton-based owners, raised the funds to purchase the team from Pocklington, vowing to keep the Oilers in Edmonton. The Oilers received support in this endeavour from the NHL, which had already seen two Canadian teams (the Nordiques and Jets) move to the United States earlier in the decade.

Don't let your revisionist Bettman hate get in the way of the truth, as it has for some here.

 

[NotBad*]

difference was EDM didn't declare bankruptcy nor had any of us heard of JB

Nope But Bettman was quite willing to sell the team to one guys who was a fraud... Follow that up by giving Edmonton an Ultimatum which we responded to.

Bankruptcy is a last straw and the only reason it was used it because bettman cant stand to watch the Jets fail in a market that was in the long run no better than where it was ripped out from.

Oh yeah a shiny rink that sells out .......... Maybe they should charge real prices for tickets... not the 4 for 80 which include food and bevy's..

LOL

 

[NotBad*]

Flat out incorrect. Cal Nichols gave Bettman huge kudos for allowing the no-owner collection of investors to take control of the Oilers, something against the rules of most the other major leagues.

Bettman took a huge risk by letting the Oilers be purchased by a 38 headed monster but felt it was worth taking a chance on it to avoid losing another Canadian team.

Nichols was one of Bettman's strongest supporters during the second lockout.



Don't let your revisionist Bettman hate get in the way of the truth, as it has for some here.

You mean he "Allowed" the EIG to purchase a team that had been in the community for 25years by issuing an Ultimatum?

Nichols a supporter? You mean a guy who watched his favorite team get gutted by out of control contracts and a piss poor dollar.... Funny how much money did Nichols make after the lockout on the oilers?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Nope But Bettman was quite willing to sell the team to one guys who was a fraud... Follow that up by giving Edmonton an Ultimatum which we responded to.

Bankruptcy is a last straw and the only reason it was used it because bettman cant stand to watch the Jets fail in a market that was in the long run no better than where it was ripped out from.

Oh yeah a shiny rink that sells out .......... Maybe they should charge real prices for tickets... not the 4 for 80 which include food and bevy's..

LOL

then maybe Katz should declare bankruptcy so we can move the Oilers to Hamilton, deal

 

[Bitterman]

Looks like the thread is breaking.



A SO bidder would not necessarily be the bid best able to satisfy the creditors, as relocating costs huge amounts of money to both the relocation-fee demanding NHL and the broken lease to Glendale.

If Glendale were able to demand 250m, and the NHL required a 150m relocation fee, a 150m bid to stay in the city would be better than a 500m bid to move it in the eyes of the bankruptcy court. The NHL's rights were reaffirmed and Glendale's supported, though no numbers given, so that's where things stand.

No. All those issues regarding creditors and the lease will be addressed prior to the auction. If there are overly restrictive measures put in place to force a team to stay long term there just won't be any bids at all. Don't forget the NHL has been trying to find a buyer long before this bankruptcy mess and there wasn't a long line of truly interested buyers before and there are even less now who might be willing to keep the team in Phoenix, even short term.

Now that the water has been poisoned you can be certain any offer by Reinsdorf will now be less... if it comes at all and will still demand early escape clauses that the CoG must agree with. If they don't there will be no buyers and the NHL will pay the losses for an immovable asset for years to come.

*Edited for typos

 

[NotBad*]

then maybe Katz should declare bankruptcy so we can move the Oilers to Hamilton, deal

Except for he making money...... Makes sense to me

 

[bbud]

Trying to interpert this the best I can.

NFL teams must sell out their stadiums to be on TV (blackout rule) so I'm not following your logic of "it'd be okay if no fans came" other than if you're saying "this league works in these scenarios because of massive money from TV deals" which is precisely my point. The scenario wouldn't work in the NHL because the money isn't there.

Texas A&M is nowhere near Dallas. The two "major" college football teams in DFW get little to no support. It's kinda down near Houston, and it's as clannish as a team/school can be. Aggies get support from other Aggies, not corporations in that area of Texas. College football is another huge part of the reason the NFL won't touch Austin (Texas is too ingrained in the fans and corporate culture - the NFL wouldn't stand a chance). Also, in cities were they do somewhat thrive side by side, a lot of it has to do with alcohol sponsorships. NCAA teams can't take money from beer companies.

And if Bettman hated Canada, Edmonton, Ottawa and Calgary would be long gone. I don't know if he goes to bed at night under a poster of a maple leaf, but this whole "he hates Canada" spiel is an excuse for the mismanagement of the Jets and Nordiques that led to their moving south, and those situations were already unraveling well before he became commissioner. Does he hate Hartford too?

exactly my point NFl has done so well with tv deals they have money as do college programs in USA , some huge differences are population and grassroots support of football as well very similar to hockey in most of Canada where major junior which would be similar to college exists and succeeds in most pro markets .
I honestly do beleive GB hates Canada ive watched him in interviews here seems he rather dislikes us , taken 2 teams away did not do anything about the huge issues canadian teams had when our dollar was half of USA dollar even with GMs like Brian Burke warning we would lose teams , so now why should canadians feel good knowing we provide a huge part of profits to NHL coffers and are treated like 3rd class but are paying through equlaization to support Pho that is why many of us beleive and have some idea MR GB hates us can you see where we come from

 

[Crazy_Ike]

You mean he "Allowed" the EIG to purchase a team that had been in the community for 25years by issuing an Ultimatum?

If no one will step up and support a team where it is, it gets moved eventually. That's the ultimatum every team gets when it is up for sale.

Edmonton didn't get one. However, Bettman and the BoG decided to let Edmonton try 37 small ones together instead, which they were under NO obligation to do. The safe and smart decision would have the Oilers in Houston today. Bettman took the risky and dangerous option instead for the benefit of Albertan and Canadian hockey.

You don't have to like the truth, but it's in the public record.

Nichols a supporter? You mean a guy who watched his favorite team get gutted by out of control contracts and a piss poor dollar.... Funny how much money did Nichols make after the lockout on the oilers?

I find it funnier that you would so quickly turn on the guy when told he was a huge Bettman supporter, and gave Bettman credit for helping save the Oilers in Edmonton. That does not speak well for objectivity.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

No. All those issues regarding creditors and the lease will be addressed prior to the auction. If there are overly restrictive measures put in place to force a team to stay long term there just won't be any bids at all.

The judge reaffirmed that the lease, and the NHL's rules for gaining approval to relocate, were not "overly restrictive". That goose is cooked, sir.

Don't forget the NHL has been trying to find a buyer long before this bankruptcy mess and there wasn't a long line of truly interested buyers before and there are even less now who might be willing to keep the team in Phoenix, even short term.

We'll deal with "no one bid" when the time comes. I find the idea that no one would bid to keep the team in Phoenix quite laughable, actually, with lease improvements implemented. Now, if the lease can't be approved, then there could be trouble. But that in no way makes SO the best relocation destination in the league's eyes (which is now what matters). As Bettman is on record as preferring a Winnipeg destination, wouldn't it be something if it went back there? It would be worth far less there, lowering the relocation fee and giving more money to the creditors. I would laugh my head off.

But, we'll see about that when it happens. As for right now, I'll just enjoy Balsillie's epic defeat.

 

[NotBad*]

If no one will step up and support a team where it is, it gets moved eventually. That's the ultimatum every team gets when it is up for sale.
We did support the oiler's We just couldnt support pocklington anymore. Gary had pretty much sold the Oilers to Huston befor ehis big kind heart opened up

Edmonton didn't get one. However, Bettman and the BoG decided to let Edmonton try 37 small ones together instead, which they were under NO obligation to do. The safe and smart decision would have the Oilers in Houston today. Bettman took the risky and dangerous option instead for the benefit of Albertan and Canadian hockey.
Interesting that since Bettman became the savior of Edmonton the oilers value trippled.....

You don't have to like the truth, but it's in the public record.



I find it funnier that you would so quickly turn on the guy when told he was a huge Bettman supporter, and gave Bettman credit for helping save the Oilers in Edmonton. That does not speak well for objectivity.
WHo said i didnt support Cal? he did a great thing. He knew with a cap the Oilers would be financially safe. The only credit Bettman gets for the lockout is he stopped the insanity with contracts. the Only problem is the Cap came 10years too late

 

[bbud]

then maybe Katz should declare bankruptcy so we can move the Oilers to Hamilton, deal

Edmonton has no need to go bankrupt half population of Pho and profitable maybe GB should spend some time there oh during hockey season in winter

 

[LadyStanley]

Folks, please keep to the topic of Phoenix's bankruptcy, not the history and impact of pop culture.

 

[Crazy_Ike]

We did support the oiler's We just couldnt support pocklington anymore. Gary had pretty much sold the Oilers to Huston befor ehis big kind heart opened up

In this context support entails buying the team with money. You don't get to keep a team forever with no owner. Not even Phoenix gets that.

Interesting that since Bettman became the savior of Edmonton the oilers value trippled....

Does this have some relevance to the fact Bettman supported keeping the team in Edmonton?

 

[bbud]

In this context support entails buying the team with money. You don't get to keep a team forever with no owner. Not even Phoenix gets that.



Does this have some relevance to the fact Bettman supported keeping the team in Edmonton?

actually by taking over Pho Gb seems to have said no owner is ok and for another yr if needed
Gb actually was about to put Oilers in Houston he would have loved it i am sure that is what made local group come together not Gb they came along in spite of not for, he wasnt going to run a money loser in Edmonton for a season.
Just to add i remember how much went on and how the NHL itself was so out of touch with the whole thing at the time

 

[Crazy_Ike]

actually by taking over Pho Gb seems to have said no owner is ok and for another yr if needed

Sorry, but you have confused "one year" with "indefinitely".

Gb actually was about to put Oilers in Houston he would have loved it i am sure that is what made local group come together not Gb they came along in spite of not for, he wasnt going to run a money loser in Edmonton for a season

Yeah I'm sure you're a neutral observer of Bettman's motivations and feelings.

 

[triggrman]

Why? Washington was doing the same stuff before they actually got the Expos. Teams need to hit the ground running so there are all sorts of things that need to get done in advance, if only to show that your new market is serious and capable.

You mean Washington did so without MLB's consent? I don't remember hearing it that way. MLB was actually the ones marketing Washington. Big bid difference.

If I started selling tickets to the Birmingham Titans and was using the NFL's logo's and trademarks, I promise you, they would sue me.

JB was marketing and selling tickets to a team he didn't own in a market that he had no right too. I've never seen anyone do that in the past.

 

[KevFu]

Seems like all that's being discussed is how Bettman is the devil.

The bigger question is: What now?