Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge

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billy blaze

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I think its been said that, if no one bids than there will be an auction open to relocation.

The asset is still open to anyone submitting a proposal- and I use proposal because the auction was part of the process shot down because of time constraints- so if I had the means, I could submit to Judge Baum my proposal to satisfy the creditors, he would consider the proposal and should he deem it satisfactory to get the best deal for the creditors then he accepts it. This is why other proposals must be forthcoming buy interested parties. If Balsillie is the only one to submit a proposal, Judge Baum would have to consider it the "best" proposal to satisfy creditors

Balsillie could submit new proposal as early as tonight ( though it prudent that he not) , asking for a reasonable time for NHL to vote on ownership acceptance ( NHL loathe to do as anti-trust door then opens), relocation fee ( NHL loathe to do as fee could undercut future expansion) and indemnity fee ( here is Rodier stance, you are a Doctor licensed by the government to run your medical practice, you have a competing medical Doctor who has a practise on Park Place, you want to open your practise around the corner on Boardwalk, there are enough patients to go around to satisfy you both, the government cannot stop you from opening your practice on Boardwalk even being as close to Park Place as it is if there are enough patients to satisfy both medical practises, the government can't stop you while the Doctor on Park Place has too many patients and there lining up around the corner to see him)
 

SoCalPredFan

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First off it's the GTA. Hamilton is not part of the GTA.
No other area in the GTA has an arena, other than Maple leaf Gardens which would require millions in upgrades.(and is way too close to the ACC)
Hamilton has an arena that requires upgrades but is a lot cheaper than building a new arena.
Though I can't guarantee it, I think Hamilton would sell out every game, with many left wanting tickets.
I'm actually one that believes that a team in Hamilton and another in the GTA would be successful.

I meant GTA, sorry...

IMO, going into Hamilton is "settling" for something less than ideal. If you're going to add a second team into the GTA, do it right. Maximize corporate revenue. Keep it far enough away from potentially harming a small market team (Buffalo).

All I'm saying is there are better solutions out there, and without JB's ridiculous timeline there are the means to explore them appropriately.
 

Tra La La

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Simple question:
What if in the next act of this theater in Phoenix, Balsillie by far puts in the best bid to buy the team?

And:
What role would the courts have handling such a situation as Balsillie putting in by far the highest bid?

And lastly:
The judge didn't agree with Balsillie's timetable; however, being that there still are creditors who are owed and waiting some kind of settlement on their behave, ... How long will the judge likely let this situation drag on? How much time will he allow the League to find buyers for the team, and thus pay the creditors? Getting the creditors paid, I think, is still the judge's first priority.

If there is a keep the team in Glendale auction? Balsillie won't bid in that one. Glendale was already talking to Reinsdorf.

The west-side suburb also has been working with the NHL and had discussions with Reinsdorf regarding a possible bid and lease concessions and other help the city might offer.

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2009/06/15/daily27.html
 

New User Name

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Simple question:
What if in the next act of this theater in Phoenix, Balsillie by far puts in the best bid to buy the team?

And:
What role would the courts have handling such a situation as Balsillie putting in by far the highest bid?

And lastly:
The judge didn't agree with Balsillie's timetable; however, being that there still are creditors who are owed and waiting some kind of settlement on their behave, ... How long will the judge likely let this situation drag on? How much time will he allow the League to find buyers for the team, and thus pay the creditors? Getting the creditors paid, I think, is still the judge's first priority.

My understanding is there will be a first bid based on keeping the team in Phoenix.
If there are no offers with the conditions set out by the courts/city/NHL in the first auction, then a second auction will happen.
 

New User Name

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I meant GTA, sorry...

IMO, going into Hamilton is "settling" for something less than ideal. If you're going to add a second team into the GTA, do it right. Maximize corporate revenue. Keep it far enough away from potentially harming a small market team (Buffalo).

All I'm saying is there are better solutions out there, and without JB's ridiculous timeline there are the means to explore them appropriately.

I understand what you're saying, though I think a team in Hamilton will create a fierce rivalry with the Sabres.
One that will actually strengthen the Sabres.
 

MoreOrr

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My understanding is there will be a first bid based on keeping the team in Phoenix.
If there are no offers with the conditions set out by the courts/city/NHL in the first auction, then a second auction will happen.

Do you believe that those conditions involve some "minimum" amount? And if so, what would you venture that minimum bid amount to be?

And even if Balsillie isn't allowed to participate in a first round of bidding because he wants to move the team, it would seem logical that he could make his potential bid amount known. What if Balsillie's potential bid is significantly above the minimum that the judge is anticipating? Would that have NO influence on the judge's decision?
 

Fish on The Sand

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Do you believe that those conditions involve some "minimum" amount? And if so, what would you venture that minimum bid amount to be?

And even if Balsillie isn't allowed to participate in a first round of bidding because he wants to move the team, it would seem logical that he could make his potential bid amount known. What if Balsillie's potential bid is significantly above the minimum that the judge is anticipating? Would that have NO influence on the judge's decision?

I'm sure that it wouldn't, and if it did it would be a pretty open and shut appeal.
 

SoCalPredFan

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Do you believe that those conditions involve some "minimum" amount? And if so, what would you venture that minimum bid amount to be?

And even if Balsillie isn't allowed to participate in a first round of bidding because he wants to move the team, it would seem logical that he could make his potential bid amount known. What if Balsillie's potential bid is significantly above the minimum that the judge is anticipating? Would that have NO influence on the judge's decision?

It's not about the highest bid, it's about the best bid.

Balsillie's bid would presumably leave the City of Glendale out in the cold -- moving them into the creditor pile ... something a local bid avoids.

He could outbid a local bid by $150m, but if Baum determines that Glendale is owed $300m as a creditor, that larger bid still leaves the pool of creditors less as a whole b/c of Glendale now getting their share of the pool.
 

billy blaze

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My understanding is there will be a first bid based on keeping the team in Phoenix.
If there are no offers with the conditions set out by the courts/city/NHL in the first auction, then a second auction will happen.

this thought process was put forth by the NHL, Judge Baum has never accepted or denied this thought process, however their was only one proposal before him, as of now there are none, Balsillie's people are stating they are going to move forward, it's up to other parties to step forward to compete with what Balsillie will put forward
 

MoreOrr

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I'm sure that it wouldn't, and if it did it would be a pretty open and shut appeal.

If I may, just to clarify what I meant by that last question... If the judge were to see that the creditors would only be minimally served by a "minimum" expected bid, but a potentially much higher bid from Balsillie would significantly serve the creditors better, wouldn't it be something that the judge would have to consider?

All that I see that has happened so far is that the judge decided for allowing the League more time to find potential buyers who could not only serve what the League wants but also serve as a good option for the creditors.
 

LadyStanley

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Why do people keep referencing a September auction?, the Judge has not accepted this time frame

NHL submitted proposed timeline (weeks ago) of August participation and September auction should Judge Baum "rule against" relocation (on short time frame).

(There's a calendar in the "Coyotes/Phoenix" legal download thread.)

I think its been said that, if no one bids than there will be an auction open to relocation.

There will be bids.

However for the auction to declare a "winner" (and new owner of NHL franchise) the NHL wants to pre-approve potential owners and the Judge gets to make the final determination of the bid is "enough". (If a winner, then the creditors get paid off and the franchise taken out of bankruptcy.)

Simple question:
What if in the next act of this theater in Phoenix, Balsillie by far puts in the best bid to buy the team?

Has to be better than any bid to keep team in Phoenix, plus cover added claim from Glendale on loss of tenant (and requires judge to break lease contract).

And:
What role would the courts have handling such a situation as Balsillie putting in by far the highest bid?

Judge is the final decider of who the new owner(s) will be. If he does not like an owner that the NHL endorses (and that corresponding bid), he can send them back to find something/someone else.

And lastly:
The judge didn't agree with Balsillie's timetable; however, being that there still are creditors who are owed and waiting some kind of settlement on their behave, ... How long will the judge likely let this situation drag on? How much time will he allow the League to find buyers for the team, and thus pay the creditors? Getting the creditors paid, I think, is still the judge's first priority.

The league has promised to pay the day-to-day bills.

It's the outstanding creditors who may want to push things. But they might prefer to get $0.75 on the dollar than $0.50 that might come from rushing too much.
 

New User Name

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Do you believe that those conditions involve some "minimum" amount? And if so, what would you venture that minimum bid amount to be?

And even if Balsillie isn't allowed to participate in a first round of bidding because he wants to move the team, it would seem logical that he could make his potential bid amount known. What if Balsillie's potential bid is significantly above the minimum that the judge is anticipating? Would that have NO influence on the judge's decision?

The Judge already knows Jim's bid this time is 212.5 million.
(though Jim's bid in a second round would more than likely be a lot less)
Somehow I doubt it gets to a second round.
The NHL will work their ***** off to get lease concessions and other perks from Glendale. Gary and the NHL will be burning up the "blackberries" :laugh: to contact prospective buyers.
The one thing Bettman does not want to look like is a fool.
That said, even if there is a 7 year stay in Phoenix clause; if the team still is losing money (if a buyer can be found in the first round) the NHL will somehow get out of this clause and allow the new owner to move the team to KC or Vegas
 
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SoCalPredFan

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If I may, just to clarify what I meant by that last question... If the judge were to see that the creditors would only be minimally served by a "minimum" expected bid, but a potentially much higher bid from Balsillie would significantly serve the creditors better, wouldn't it be something that the judge would have to consider?

All that I see that has happened so far is that the judge decided for allowing the League more time to find potential buyers who could not only serve what the League wants but also serve as a good option for the creditors.

Mod: deleted.... but JB's bid would also have to address relocation and territorial infringements as indicated by the NHL's bylaws (and generally supported by Baum's ruling).

Also, given that a JB bid doesn't serve Glendale well at all (and thus making them the single largest creditor), I don't see an example whereby a JB bid actually "serves the creditors significantly better" ---- unless of course, he would be willing to keep the team in Phoenix and thus satisfy Glendale.
 
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Fourier

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If no one will step up and support a team where it is, it gets moved eventually. That's the ultimatum every team gets when it is up for sale.

Edmonton didn't get one. However, Bettman and the BoG decided to let Edmonton try 37 small ones together instead, which they were under NO obligation to do. The safe and smart decision would have the Oilers in Houston today. Bettman took the risky and dangerous option instead for the benefit of Albertan and Canadian hockey.

You don't have to like the truth, but it's in the public record.



I find it funnier that you would so quickly turn on the guy when told he was a huge Bettman supporter, and gave Bettman credit for helping save the Oilers in Edmonton. That does not speak well for objectivity.

;)

Personally I think that the real truth of the Edmonton situation lies somewhere between the two polarized stories. First of all the threats to move the team began long before the team was actually sold. In this respect Bettman was certainly a friend of Pocklington's by supporting the threat publically to achieve consessions from Northlands and the City.

Here is an article from the NY Times dated Feb 21, 1993 that shows the Oilers were already talking about moving. The article also suggest, and I think rightfully so, that this is not a simple Canada/US feud, as it seemed that Minnesota was also expendable if it meant getting a foothold in Texas.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/21/sports/on-pro-hockey-nhl-s-northern-lights-starting-to-dim.html

As the piece also suggests, at the time, there was serious talk of Northlands buying the team. But in reality Pocklington did not want to sell as it would have meant goodbye to the one thing keeping his empire afloat. Despite his threats he was also not in a position to move the team or it would have brought his whole empire under threat because of the nature of his financing deals. In this respect, the threats to move were very much akin to what Lemieux did to gain the new arena. He said publically that they never intended to sell the Pens and that the whole thing was a game of chicken.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_582923.html

Both schemes were with clear support of Bettman and the NHL.

By 1996-1997 it was clear that the Oilers were in deep trouble. Nichols did a great job leading a season ticket drive that was crucial to keep the Oilers in the city. Then Pocklington came up with his public offering scheme, with his plan to sell 45% of the team. But the Alberta Treasury Branch had had enough with the Puck and forced his hand. The lease was the key here because it forced Pocklington to give local interests time to counter the offer from Alexander.

At this point there is no doubt that Bettman had a positive influence in making the EIG bid work. But there is no question in my mind that they would not have fought the relocation beyond the short specified period. Moreover, it is not clear that the NHL was soley concerned about the great fans in Edmonton, but rather was also very worried about losing a substantial portion of the Canadian footprint. Afterall, Quebec and Winnipeg were already lost and all but the Leafs were under the gun. Losing the Oilers could well have snowballed to the point that the league would be left with only a minimal Canadian presence. It is this latter point that I think is the real link to the Phoenix situation.

The NHL wants the US footprint and views this as a key to its long-term plans. As one of the largest markets in its, region Phoenix is important in this respect. Bettman will fight for this market because it is in his bosses interests not because he is a savior. He fought for Edmonton for the same reason. But he also was a player in the movement of other teams for the exact same reason. As Us teams in markets deemed expendable suffered the same fate as Winnipeg and Quebec, I find it hard to attribute any of this to his hate for Canada.

It is almost ridiculous that we are debating Balsillie and Betmann as gods or devils. In reality both are likely very similar. They are certainly both accomplished individuals who are very used to getting their own way even if it is at the expense of others. Neither is particularly warm and fuzzy, and neither is at all above stretching the truth to benefit their own case.

Finally, I am in agreement with both Bryden and Nichols in that a clear win for Balsillie would have set a bad precedent for Canadian teams like Edmonton and Ottawa that could well see tough times again.
 

Crazy_Ike

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Finally, I am in agreement with both Bryden and Nichols in that a clear win for Balsillie would have set a bad precedent for Canadian teams like Edmonton and Ottawa that could well see tough times again.

Hotchkiss, not Nichols. I have no idea if Nichols has ever been asked about the current mess caused by Balsillie.

I would bet dollars to donuts he'd support the league, though. The people who know the most about what it takes to support hockey in Canada and backed it up with their wallets generally support Bettman nearly unconditionally. Mod: deleted.

;)
 
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Proboscis

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GSC2k2 said:
Egil said:
So how the **** are these 2 owners of the Argonauts bidding? This seems so unbelievably random, and as owners of 1 of the 2 non MLSE sports teams in Toronto, very suspicious.

Um, because they are both extremely wealthy?

A bit jarring to all who think that the PHO market is a without-question miserable market (not you per se, Egil).

Like a few others, I have to question the extreme wealth of these two guys given that David Braley subsidized their purchase of the Toronto Argos. What kind of an offer could they cobble together for the Phoenix Coyotes?
 

Fourier

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Hotchkiss, not Nichols. I have no idea if Nichols has ever been asked about the current mess caused by Balsillie.

I would bet dollars to donuts he'd support the league, though. The people who know the most about what it takes to support hockey in Canada and backed it up with their wallets generally support Bettman nearly unconditionally, contrary to those who view him differently and post on internet message boards.

;)

Here you go wrt Nichols,

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/story.html?id=1668112

He also says he admires Balsillie's spunk so it cuts both ways.
 

Brodie

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Like a few others, I have to question the extreme wealth of these two guys given that David Braley subsidized their purchase of the Toronto Argos. What kind of an offer could they cobble together for the Phoenix Coyotes?

Extremely wealthy as in they can't afford $2 million.
 

LadyStanley

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http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyotes/articles/2009/06/16/20090616spt-bickley.html

Some local response to Monday's ruling.
Through a city-commissioned report that suggested Wayne Gretzky take a $6 million pay cut, Beasley made his position clear. The problem is not the sport or the location. It's this flawed product they're putting on the ice, and this overpaid coach who is sucking the trough dry. He's right on both counts.

n a market that supposedly doesn't care about hockey, many of us were riveted to Game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals. Playoff hockey is 10 times better than what is offered up during the regular season, and it's where deep relationships with the sport are formed.

Yet the Coyotes haven't been to the playoffs since 2002. The franchise hasn't won a series - i.e., made a playoff run - since 1987. Logic, and our history, indicate the market could grow 10 times in Phoenix almost overnight, if the team ever got its act together.

But the clock is ticking. When new ownership groups emerge, you can bet there will be money rooted in Las Vegas, a possible escape route. There will be Canadian money, too, and another group ready to take the team across the border. This will be Bettman's litmus test, proving how much he really cares about us.
 

LadyStanley

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http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/140562
More local ink
The NHL is paying the bills until a new owner comes forward. With free agency looming July 1, will the league allow general manager Don Maloney to pursue a couple of much-needed veterans? How about re-signing some of their own free agents like Scottie Upshall or Keith Yandle? Or will the NHL operate the Coyotes much like Major League Baseball did the Montreal Expos in 2002, when financial restrictions placed on the club were so severe the Expos couldn’t even afford the payment required to call up players from the minor leagues?

“It’s a little early right now to have an answer about our budget,†said Coyotes general manager Don Maloney, who currently reports to league officials and representatives of Jerry Moyes. “Once the dust settles, we’ll get some direction.â€
 

LadyStanley

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http://www.thestar.com/article/651372
Toronto Star on ruling
It's unclear whether this is it for Balsillie. His peculiar statement last night that the fight wasn't over and the team could still be in Hamilton by the fall seemed more bravado than substance, but he's got lots of money to keep his lawyers cooking up schemes.

The Coyotes, meanwhile, have now gone from being a financial mess to being a financial mess in limbo.
 

GSC2k2*

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Like a few others, I have to question the extreme wealth of these two guys given that David Braley subsidized their purchase of the Toronto Argos. What kind of an offer could they cobble together for the Phoenix Coyotes?
Snarkiness of posts 970 and 971 aside, good question.
 
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