Backstrom + Kuznetsov vs. Tavares + Matthews

[LordZapp]

Because I want to encourage you to be more creative. It's more entertaining for everyone of the bait is engaging instead of the same old crap we've seen 100 times before. If there's gonna be a flame war, might as well get some entertainment value from it.

I don't see how you can consider me stating a very valid opinion as bait, especially if it's something you've seen 100 times before as you stated. I think that speaks more to your stubbornness on taking objective criticism from others more than anything else. Nevertheless, I'm sorry that my underwhelming creativity didn't satisfy your needs. I'll keep that in mind as I post in the future.

 

[LeafGrief]

I don't see how you can consider me stating a very valid opinion as bait, especially if it's something you've seen 100 times before as you stated. I think that speaks more to your stubbornness on taking objective criticism from others more than anything else. Nevertheless, I'm sorry that my underwhelming creativity didn't satisfy your needs. I'll keep that in mind as I post in the future.

I appreciate the consideration. You've clearly got the drive to post many "legitimate criticisms" in multiple Leafs threads. With some hard work and dedication to the craft, you could be one of the best Leafs criticizers on these boards. I look forward to seeing great things from you

 

[Peggy]

Reality
Career high in goals
Mathews 40
Tavares 38

Is this not real?

it's gross you thought to use career high goals as your argument

 

[LordZapp]

I appreciate the consideration. You've clearly got the drive to post many "legitimate criticisms" in multiple Leafs threads. With some hard work and dedication to the craft, you could be one of the best Leafs criticizers on these boards. I look forward to seeing great things from you

I shall do my best. What a great honor that would be.

 

[Munch89]

I think it is a very close match up between the two.

Backstrom is a very underrated center, oft overlooked because of his connection to ovy, however a lot of the time this year (excluding power play) he didn't play with ovy and still put up great numbers. Kuzy on the other hand is probably the craftiest of the bunch but also has shown that he doesn't always dominate the game. When he's on, he's on tho.

Matthews is fantastic, highest potential put of the 4, already the best goal scorer of the 4 as well. Consistent but has not reached the level that most people hype him at in my honest opinion... The biggest question, and possibly overlooked thing for Toronto centers is Tavares, he's coming into a brand new situation. Yes he put up those points last year with barzal being a dynamo but I don't think anyone looked at him as anything but the best player on the team. That being said, the question mark is how many points will he put up splitting the best wingers with Matthews?

I believe that Matthews and Tavares are better on paper than backstrom and kuzy.. but Backstrom and Kuzy played together and have cemented themselves as worthy to be talked about in the same breath as Matthews and Tavares, and untill I am able to see how two goal scoring centerman play together, I'm going to give it to Washington's duo for now.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Both Capitals have broken 70 points.
Only one Leaf has.
There is your answer.

ooohh....one whole point.

 

[jetsforever]

Up to now I'd say Tavares>Backstrom>Matthews/Kuznetsov
Going forward I'd take the Toronto guys

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Both Capitals have broken 70 points.
Only one Leaf has.
There is your answer.

Hilarious. Backstrom didn’t even play in the NHL in his D+1 season. Didn’t score 70+ until his D+3 year. Matthews will 100% crack 80, let alone 70, should he play eighty games this year.

 

[ScaredStreit]

ooohh....one whole point.

Both Caps have broken 80 points, only 1 Leaf has...ooohh...11 whole points. Yes 11 whole points.

Career highs:

Backstrom: 101
Tavares: 86
Kuznetsov: 83
Matthews: 69

Last year:

Tavares: 84
Kuznetsov: 83
Backstrom: 71
Matthews: 63

Previous 2 years combined (the only years where all 4 players were in the league):

Backstrom: 157
Tavares: 150
Kuznetsov: 142
Matthews: 132

Matthews is a very good young player don't get me wrong-but the amount of hyperbole that's been stated about him is ridiculous. Whether that he's easily going to be as good as Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, or that he's the Leaf's best center, or that only McDavid has a higher value.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Reality
Career high in goals
Mathews 40
Tavares 38

Is this not real?

You know someone's not interested in an honest discussion when they bring up only goal totals in a thread that includes two elite playmakers on the other side.

Quick: Who was the better player in 2005-05? Jonathan Cheechoo or Joe Thornton?
Cheechoo - 56 goals
Thornton - 29 goals

Easy choice, right?

 

[Halla]

Both Caps have broken 80 points, only 1 Leaf has...ooohh...11 whole points. Yes 11 whole points.

Career highs:

Backstrom: 101
Tavares: 86
Kuznetsov: 83
Matthews: 69

Last year:

Tavares: 84
Kuznetsov: 83
Backstrom: 71
Matthews: 63

Previous 2 years combined (the only years where all 4 players were in the league):

Backstrom: 157
Tavares: 150
Kuznetsov: 142
Matthews: 132

Matthews is a very good young player don't get me wrong-but the amount of hyperbole that's been stated about him is ridiculous. Whether that he's easily going to be as good as Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, or that he's the Leaf's best center, or that only McDavid has a higher value.

so the caps combo managed a whole 7 pts more in those 16 extra games? thats not good

nice job twisting it to make kuznetsov look better than matthews too.
give me 74g/132pts in 144 games over 46g/142pts in 161 games any day of the week

also LOL at the 80pt comment. Kuznetsov had 37pts in his draft +5. Matthews beat that in goals as a draft +1 rookie. Matthews, not close

 

[ScaredStreit]

so the caps combo managed a whole 7 pts more in those 16 extra games? thats not good

nice job twisting it to make kuznetsov look better than matthews too.
give me 74g/132pts in 144 games over 46g/142pts in 161 games any day of the week

also LOL at the 80pt comment. Kuznetsov had 37pts in his draft +5. Matthews beat that in goals as a draft +1 rookie. Matthews, not close

I didn’t twist anything everything I stated was a fact. There’s a difference between “could be better”, “will be better”, and “is better”.

 

[Craig Button]

Both Caps have broken 80 points, only 1 Leaf has...ooohh...11 whole points. Yes 11 whole points.

Career highs:

Backstrom: 101
Tavares: 86
Kuznetsov: 83
Matthews: 69

Last year:

Tavares: 84
Kuznetsov: 83
Backstrom: 71
Matthews: 63

Previous 2 years combined (the only years where all 4 players were in the league):

Backstrom: 157
Tavares: 150
Kuznetsov: 142
Matthews: 132

Matthews is a very good young player don't get me wrong-but the amount of hyperbole that's been stated about him is ridiculous. Whether that he's easily going to be as good as Messier, Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, or that he's the Leaf's best center, or that only McDavid has a higher value.

What I am really interested in is How many assists can Backstrom and Kuznetsev obtain if Ovy was only a 20-30 Goal Scorer.

Their assists are highly inflated because of Ovy

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

You know someone's not interested in an honest discussion when they bring up only goal totals in a thread that includes two elite playmakers on the other side.

Quick: Who was the better player in 2005-05? Jonathan Cheechoo or Joe Thornton?
Cheechoo - 56 goals
Thornton - 29 goals

Easy choice, right?

bringing up raw point totals to paint Tavares as better than Matthews isn't exactly an honest discussion either

 

[ScaredStreit]

What I am really interested in is How many assists can Backstrom and Kuznetsev obtain if Ovy was only a 20-30 Goal Scorer.

Their assists are highly inflated because of Ovy

In 2011 Ovechkin scored 32 goals and Backstrom scored 47 assists.
In 2012 Ovechkin scored 38 goals and Backstrom scored 30 assists in 40 games.

There's no doubt that playing with Ovechkin is going to increase anybody's production-there's no point in arguing that it doesn't. However the idea that Backstrom is a passenger or that he only produces at a high rate because of Ovechkin is false.

 

[ScaredStreit]

bringing up raw point totals to paint Tavares as better than Matthews isn't exactly an honest discussion either

When you see Tavares play more you'll realize why he's better than Matthews. He's stronger on the puck, dictates the play more, has softer hands, etc. Honestly his shot and release are just as good too. Matthews is more exciting since he's a better skater but other than that Tavares is better at just about everything else. Tavares might not be the fastest skater in the world but he's one of the few players who can slow down the game around him. When Matthews carries a team like Tavares has and is a two time Hart finalist and yes when he does score points at Tavares's level (he hasn't done so yet), then there might be a conversation. He MIGHT be better than Tavares someday, he might not be. But currently, as of right now, there's no doubt that Tavares is the better player.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

When you see Tavares play more you'll realize why he's better than Matthews. He's stronger on the puck, dictates the play more, has softer hands, etc. Honestly his shot and release are just as good too. Matthews is more exciting since he's a better skater but other than that Tavares is better at just about everything else. Tavares might not be the fastest skater in the world but he's one of the few players who can slow down the game around him. When Matthews carries a team like Tavares has and is a two time Hart finalist and yes when he does score points at Tavares's level (he hasn't done so yet), then there might be a conversation. He MIGHT be better than Tavares someday, he might not be. But currently, as of right now, there's no doubt that Tavares is the better player.

Tavares doesn't have Matthews' shot. Tavares scores his goals due to anticipation and being in the right place at the right time. He doesn't overpower goalies. Tavares also doesn't have an edge in puck protection or ability to come away with the puck off the boards.

The only edge I can see right now is Tavares' playmaking ability. But Matthews is already better at anything goal-scoring related, and I'd argue he's already better defensively.

 

[Felidae]

so the caps combo managed a whole 7 pts more in those 16 extra games? thats not good

nice job twisting it to make kuznetsov look better than matthews too.
give me 74g/132pts in 144 games over 46g/142pts in 161 games any day of the week

also LOL at the 80pt comment. Kuznetsov had 37pts in his draft +5. Matthews beat that in goals as a draft +1 rookie. Matthews, not close

The comment you responded to did conveniently leave out games played, but how is the bolded relevant when we're talking about who's better now?

 

[Halla]

The comment you responded to did conveniently leave out games played, but how is the bolded relevant when we're talking about who's better now?

perspective. dude i was responding too is cherry picking stats hard (conveniently leaving out goals, games played, point per game)

Matthews has 74g/132pts in 144 games since he came in the league

Vs

Kuznetsov with 46g/142pts in 161 games

call me crazy but im taking the guy with +28g and -10pts in 17 less games

Matthews has simply been the more productive player, Kuznetsov is only in this convo because he just had a great playoffs. the comments about matthews not being a playoff producer are a bit short sighted considering kuznetsov only had 2pts in 13 games his 2nd trip to the playoffs...

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Flip a coin. Which is what the poll shows as well.
There should be a too close to call option.

 

[DanM]

[mod]
Matthews was UNREAL before he was injured last year, was injured 3 times (which is the only concern I had with him last year, hopefully not reoccurring) Babcock said he didn't skate the same after, Matthews said it would not heal fully, and you could see the change in his game.

Even with all this, he was over PPG lol

This guy would have had 90 points last year if healthy [mod]

But I get it, HFBoards lol

 

[WetcoastOrca]

[mod]
Matthews was UNREAL before he was injured last year, was injured 3 times (which is the only concern I had with him last year, hopefully not reoccurring) Babcock said he didn't skate the same after, Matthews said it would not heal fully, and you could see the change in his game.

Even with all this, he was over PPG lol

This guy would have had 90 points last year if healthy [mod]

But I get it, HFBoards lol

He was on pace for 84 points in three quarters of a season, assuming of course that he kept up the pace. That’s a fact.
The rest is hyperbole, excuses and trying to get a rise out of people who want to see him produce at least a PPG for a full season.
Lots of players played through injuries last year.

 

[Haatley]

"Matthews is so good defensively and gets no PP time."

In actuality, Matthews basically gets 2 minutes more per game on the powerplay than penalty kill....

Backstrom plays more on the PP and the PK because you play your best centres in all situations.

Also Washington won the cup.

 

[DanM]

He was on pace for 84 points in three quarters of a season, assuming of course that he kept up the pace. That’s a fact.
The rest is hyperbole, excuses and trying to get a rise out of people who want to see him produce at least a PPG for a full season.
Lots of players played through injuries last year.

Yes, an 84 point pace

My opinion was he would have had 90, but you are right.

However, people taking a crap on him and saying "he has not lived up to the hype last year" are idiots. He had a very good season, considering the injuries and games missed.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Yes, an 84 point pace

My opinion was he would have had 90, but you are right.

However, people taking a crap on him and saying "he has not lived up to the hype last year" are idiots. He had a very good season, considering the injuries and games missed.

I agree that he had a good season and that the comments about him not breaking 70 points are deliberately misleading. I think he showed that he can go a PPG.
He’s one of a great group of young players who it will be fun to watch over the next few years to see how they compare to each other.