Babcock's coaching method Vs Success

[Buds17]

Can people stop saying 'he took a last place team to 6th in 2 years', he was our ****ing coach when we got last place. I don't think he's had 0 impact on the improvement but Jesus Christ he was here when we were last and when we were 6th, the variable that changed in that time was not our coach, it was the quality of our lineup.

And I do think that this team could've accomplished more, Babcock did not get everything out of the team. It could've accomplished less as well. But 1 more 1st round loss and I'm ditching the attachment to Babcock's successes 10 years ago.

The quick jump from last to wildcard to divisional spot is what makes it all the better. The influx of talent is undoubtedly the catalyst, but coaches sometimes fall in the tough position of not enough credit for success, and too much blame for failure.

I don't put much stock in the last overall finish because I'd say that was by design. Not having some of the apparently ready rookies on the team from start to finish (Nylander, Brown) and the amount of one year stopgap signings gives that impression IMO.

Fair enough if you think we could've accomplished more this season. I will say my early hope for next season is home ice advantage and a Round 1 win.

 

[stickty111]

..meaning quennville. He has been better in the last 8 years than babcock.

No the conversation was about comparing the imbicle Quenvelle's last 4 years to Babcock's last 8 years, which Babcock has been better in.

 

[A1LeafNation]

No the conversation was about comparing the imbicle Quenvelle's last 4 years to Babcock's last 8 years, which Babcock has been better in.

If anyone who would know what I meant...would be me..not you.

 

[Brock Radunske]

He's earned enough rope to last at least two more seasons.
That being said, if he continues to struggle to get out of the 1st round due to his stubbornness/arrogance, I think Dubas will gas him and bring in his own guy.

 

[stickty111]

If anyone who would know what I meant...would be me..not you.

Actually if it was anyone that knew, it would be me. Considering you keep forgetting or ignoring the actual conversation since you were proven wrong.

 

[Gary Nylund]

He's earned enough rope to last at least two more seasons.
That being said, if he continues to struggle to get out of the 1st round due to his stubbornness/arrogance, I think Dubas will gas him and bring in his own guy.

I haven't given this a lot of thought TBH but this sounds exactly right. Overall Babcock's done a great job and any talk of replacing him today is nuts. But if the bolded happens, yup two years sounds about right. Let's hope him and Dubas get on the same page, who knows, maybe Dubas is so brilliant that he can "coach the coach" and bring Babcock into the future, now wouldn't that be something!

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Don't think it will Dubas's decision all to fire Babcock. Shanahan and the owners are the decision makers about Babcock.
That being said, I don't think Babcock is a good game management coach. If he goes, fine with me.

Mod Edit

 

[IBeL34f]

He's earned enough rope to last at least two more seasons.
That being said, if he continues to struggle to get out of the 1st round due to his stubbornness/arrogance, I think Dubas will gas him and bring in his own guy.

In both of the past 2 years we've been the underdog in the 1st round - Last year as the Wild Card against the Presidents' Trophy winners, and this year against a very strong, very experienced Bruins team. Do you really think the reason we've struggled to get past the 1st round is because Babcock is arrogant?

We're still very much in a development stage, and I'd actually be upset at this point if Babcock, when forced to make a choice that would only benefit one of the present or the future, made his decisions to benefit the former. I feel like most of the people who are upset about Babcock's lineup decisions and stubbornness are on a totally different page of this rebuild than where we actually are, and it leads to some really bizarre evaluations of the coaching staff and players.

I'd be absolutely shocked if anyone in the Leafs front office is looking at Babcock the way many around here are. I honestly can't imagine a more secure coaching job in the League right now, except maybe Gallant's in Vegas.

 

[IPS]

LMFAO I suggest before you talk any more foolishness you go actually look at the roster and stats of the 2008 Cup team.

2007-08 Detroit Red Wings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Looking at it again that honestly looks like a roster that's custom-tailored to Babcock's desires.

Incredible top-end talent with Dats/Zetterberg/Lidstrom/Rafalski that can dominate any situation, and a supporting cast consisting of a few skill guys with lots of grinders who wear teams out. Not too hard to see how Babcock's system was almost perfect for that roster.

 

[IPS]

List of NHL statistical leaders - Wikipedia

All anybody needs to know

Impossible not to be impressed with what Quenville did as a coach.

Babcock's done some very impressive things as well but let's be real, he is not as accomplished as Quenville.

 

[charliolemieux]

2007-08 Detroit Red Wings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Looking at it again that honestly looks like a roster that's custom-tailored to Babcock's desires.

Incredible top-end talent with Dats/Zetterberg/Lidstrom/Rafalski that can dominate any situation, and a supporting cast consisting of a few skill guys with lots of grinders who wear teams out. Not too hard to see how Babcock's system was almost perfect for that roster.

Custom-tailored maybe, but not all-world like MikeyG was trying to say.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Can people stop saying 'he took a last place team to 6th in 2 years', he was our ****ing coach when we got last place. I don't think he's had 0 impact on the improvement but Jesus Christ he was here when we were last and when we were 6th, the variable that changed in that time was not our coach, it was the quality of our lineup.

And I do think that this team could've accomplished more, Babcock did not get everything out of the team. It could've accomplished less as well. But 1 more 1st round loss and I'm ditching the attachment to Babcock's successes 10 years ago.

Wouldn't he have a direct impact on said quality? What would their quality be with him versus without? Hard to say. Some seem to have improved under his "tough love" though.

You know what else he's done? Minimize weakness and maximize strengths. Do you know who the two leading forwards were in ice time prior to Babcock? JVR and Bozak. Do you know who the two lowest ice time forwards were this season (save Martin)? JVR and Bozak. You could argue "quality" but I think reality is Babcock knows he has to shelter them at ES and exploit them on PP.

He could probably accomplish more by front loading but this is a process. I think ditching after another first round loss is a bit extreme. Last year no one gave us a sniff of a chance and we came through 6 games with 5 overtimes and a one goal game for the 6th. This year we fell one period short against a very good team. Now personally my goal for next year would be home ice and a 1st round win but I wouldn't jump off a cliff if it doesn't happen. I do expect the year after to be the start of several years of being a true Cup contender.

 

[nsleaf]

No, i’m saying hes a bad coach because he can only win win a worldclass nhl team that had two 1c’s an all time great 1D, and a great goaltending combo. He hasn’t won anything in the NHL with a “good” team. Hes been irrelevant in terms of NHL achievements for nearly a decade now. You bab buddies need to learn that your boy is full of ****.

OK, this Bab's buddy would be curious to know who your buddy is that could do a better job? It's fine to criticize but unless you can opine a better option, what's the point?
For me, it's all about "what have you done for me lately", not ancient history.

 

[moon111]

Reading this thread makes my head spin. It's like listening to people who think vaccines cause autism.

There's simple things to comment about. Like why did Babcock give 9 minutes/game more ice-time to Gardiner when Dermott
lead the team in giveaways in the playoffs? Personally, I don't think Dermott comes out looking that bad in these playoffs.
Babcock could of crushed him like Gardiner was. Dermott comes out of this all without a loss of confidence, but knowing he's got work to do.
Just another example of Babcock putting young players on the proper development curve.

Now to more complicated and speculative comments. Is Babcock the ultimate puppet-master?
Do you really think the Leaf's coaching believed in this team? I tried not to think of the facts, praying for victories,
but deep down I knew... this club has all kinds of holes in the roster. Did he play Gardiner to win, or was he driving home
his internal protests Gardiner needs to be removed by giving Jake enough rope to hang himself with?
Did he showcase JVR/Bozak during the season expecting Lou Lamoriello to make a trade for a defenseman?
Giving them premium ice-time under idea situations? Even now, during an interview you can see him promote
how good they are. Maybe he's not trying to sell them to the audience, but to another team.
Was this his way of getting rid of them? Making sure they're not resigning with the Leafs?
Babcock knows what he wants, did he have hand in Lou Lamoriello's exit? Babcock has final say on who plays or not.
He stipulated that when he signed with the team. The G.M. does not control who's on the ice. What I see is players like
Josh Leivo and Matt Martin sitting while Babcock loves his energy players. While we're all bickering about Komarov
v.s Johnsson in the line-up, Babcock seems to like both of them. Lou gave Babcock a steady stream of the old-style
New Jersey Devil players and I don't think Babcock was impressed. After the season was over, did Babcock consult
with Shanahan that this isn't going to work in the new NHL. Think Babcock is forward-thinking and
him and Dubas will work out great.

Babcock knows exactly what strings to pull. He understands how far to push a team's roster to perform not just
on the ice, but off it as well. Not only would he bring a team to success, but keep it there. Players who have holes
in their game will know about it. A player like Mike Green doesn't want to play for Babcock, but the fact is, Babcock
knows you don't win with a $6 million dollar blueliner who gives away the puck 68 times and generates 33 points.
Babcock sees him for what he is, an offensive player who's defensive game results in no gain. Meanwhile, Polak
was a +5 in the regular season and a +3 in the playoffs and cost $1.1 million. Perhaps Babcock knows net-gain at
all price points?

As fans were concerned about how the chairs were arranged on the Titanic, I think Babcock
was putting the pieces he wants into the lifeboats. I might be speculating on a lot here, but can think you can take
it to the bank Babcock has this down to a science.

 

[DarkKnight]

Dubas sinks or swims with Babs, the idea that he could actually turf him at some point is delusion of the highest order. If we ever get to the point Babs is canned, I assure you Dubas will be too, because we failed.

 

[charliolemieux]

Reading this thread makes my head spin. It's like listening to people who think vaccines cause autism.

There's simple things to comment about. Like why did Babcock give 9 minutes/game more ice-time to Gardiner when Dermott
lead the team in giveaways in the playoffs? Personally, I don't think Dermott comes out looking that bad in these playoffs.
Babcock could of crushed him like Gardiner was. Dermott comes out of this all without a loss of confidence, but knowing he's got work to do.
Just another example of Babcock putting young players on the proper development curve.

Now to more complicated and speculative comments. Is Babcock the ultimate puppet-master?
Do you really think the Leaf's coaching believed in this team? I tried not to think of the facts, praying for victories,
but deep down I knew... this club has all kinds of holes in the roster. Did he play Gardiner to win, or was he driving home
his internal protests Gardiner needs to be removed by giving Jake enough rope to hang himself with?
Did he showcase JVR/Bozak during the season expecting Lou Lamoriello to make a trade for a defenseman?
Giving them premium ice-time under idea situations? Even now, during an interview you can see him promote
how good they are. Maybe he's not trying to sell them to the audience, but to another team.
Was this his way of getting rid of them? Making sure they're not resigning with the Leafs?
Babcock knows what he wants, did he have hand in Lou Lamoriello's exit? Babcock has final say on who plays or not.
He stipulated that when he signed with the team. The G.M. does not control who's on the ice. What I see is players like
Josh Leivo and Matt Martin sitting while Babcock loves his energy players. While we're all bickering about Komarov
v.s Johnsson in the line-up, Babcock seems to like both of them. Lou gave Babcock a steady stream of the old-style
New Jersey Devil players and I don't think Babcock was impressed. After the season was over, did Babcock consult
with Shanahan that this isn't going to work in the new NHL. Think Babcock is forward-thinking and
him and Dubas will work out great.

Babcock knows exactly what strings to pull. He understands how far to push a team's roster to perform not just
on the ice, but off it as well. Not only would he bring a team to success, but keep it there. Players who have holes
in their game will know about it. A player like Mike Green doesn't want to play for Babcock, but the fact is, Babcock
knows you don't win with a $6 million dollar blueliner who gives away the puck 68 times and generates 33 points.
Babcock sees him for what he is, an offensive player who's defensive game results in no gain. Meanwhile, Polak
was a +5 in the regular season and a +3 in the playoffs and cost $1.1 million. Perhaps Babcock knows net-gain at
all price points?

As fans were concerned about how the chairs were arranged on the Titanic, I think Babcock
was putting the pieces he wants into the lifeboats. I might be speculating on a lot here, but can think you can take
it to the bank Babcock has this down to a science.

Interesting view.

I was really upset last year when Babcock seemed to refuse to play Rielly on the PP, and again this year when he was playing Marner on the 4th line. So even though I have been called a "Babs Buddy" I am by no means wearing blinders when it comes to his coaching. I do think that he deserves a chance with this team to teach our youth to be complete players. That doesn't mean 2 or 3 yrs and then fired like a lot of people want to do, because that's what Ballard era to present, Toronto has almost always done. That means having some consistency for 5+yrs to grow with the team.

We are fortunate enough to have an incredible group of young talent in our system. Give them some stability with a good coach to see what they can do.

 

[IPS]

Custom-tailored maybe, but not all-world like MikeyG was trying to say.

You're joking right?

Lidstrom was the best defensemen in the world almost up until his retirement and Datsyuk and Zetterberg were 2 of the best shutdown players in the league who happened to be 2 of the best offensive players in the world at the same time. Those 3 alone make the Wings border on an all-world type of team. Throw in Franzen, Holmstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Filpulla and the rest of their depth and it's an exceptional roster.

 

[Mikeyg]

OK, this Bab's buddy would be curious to know who your buddy is that could do a better job? It's fine to criticize but unless you can opine a better option, what's the point?
For me, it's all about "what have you done for me lately", not ancient history.

But babs literally hasn’t won lately..... hes won like 3 rounds in 9 years. I would make hiller coach on an interm basis, just like how sully became a great coach after he left torts shadow. Hiller would forsure make more competitive lineups

 

[charliolemieux]

You're joking right?

Lidstrom was the best defensemen in the world almost up until his retirement and Datsyuk and Zetterberg were 2 of the best shutdown players in the league who happened to be 2 of the best offensive players in the world at the same time. Those 3 alone make the Wings border on an all-world type of team. Throw in Franzen, Holmstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Filpulla and the rest of their depth and it's an exceptional roster.

It is a good team. But it is not all world, or world class, or even really that exceptional.
The argument wasn't if it was a good team, it was that Babcock can only win with a world class lineup. That 2007-08 Roster is far from world class, and he won.

You don't bash the coach because he won with a good team. It takes a good team to win.

07-08 Detroit is a good line up, but falls short of world class or all-world, imo.

 

[charliolemieux]

But babs literally hasn’t won lately..... hes won like 3 rounds in 9 years. I would make hiller coach on an interm basis, just like how sully became a great coach after he left torts shadow. Hiller would forsure make more competitive lineups

You don't know that. lmao
MAkes zero sense to dump a coach after only 3yr when he was handed a bunch of 20 somethings and next to no defense corps and has managed to set a record for PTS for a 100+yr old franchise. NO Sense at all.

BTW, how did you like that 2003 ANH roster. lmfao

 

[A1LeafNation]

Actually if it was anyone that knew, it would be me. Considering you keep forgetting or ignoring the actual conversation since you were proven wrong.

I'm not ignoring. Lol. You misinterpreted what I meant.

 

[Martin Skoula]

It is a good team. But it is not all world, or world class, or even really that exceptional.
The argument wasn't if it was a good team, it was that Babcock can only win with a world class lineup. That 2007-08 Roster is far from world class, and he won.

You don't bash the coach because he won with a good team. It takes a good team to win.

07-08 Detroit is a good line up, but falls short of world class or all-world, imo.

Go look up any poll on the main boards that compares cup winners over the past 15+ years, the 08 Detroit team takes every single one in a walk. No other cup winner was that elite at every position. That was the closest to an all-world team you can get in a cap world without drafting 1st overall 4 times in a row except in good years (McDavid, Matthews, Hichier, Dahlin with 3 on ELCs).

That lineup would still have won if all the coach did was tell them "go have fun out there."

 

[charliolemieux]

Go look up any poll on the main boards that compares cup winners over the past 15+ years, the 08 Detroit team takes every single one in a walk. No other cup winner was that elite at every position. That was the closest to an all-world team you can get in a cap world without drafting 1st overall 4 times in a row except in good years (McDavid, Matthews, Hichier, Dahlin with 3 on ELCs).

That lineup would still have won if all the coach did was tell them "go have fun out there."

I said the team was good.
I don't contest that.
But how do you fault a coach for winning with the same type of line up every championship team has?

*Best over the last 15yrs??? lol We aren't talking about Prime Hasek, and Lidstrom, but ok. I kind of like the '10 Hawks.

As for the team winning if the coach just told them to have fun out there, that's just a dumb statement.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Go look up any poll on the main boards that compares cup winners over the past 15+ years, the 08 Detroit team takes every single one in a walk. No other cup winner was that elite at every position. That was the closest to an all-world team you can get in a cap world without drafting 1st overall 4 times in a row except in good years (McDavid, Matthews, Hichier, Dahlin with 3 on ELCs).

That lineup would still have won if all the coach did was tell them "go have fun out there."

Their top end talent was world-class but the rest of their roster was pretty meh .. I mean Franzen was a beast when healthy but then you're looking at Dan Clearly as your third highest scoring forward, Holmstrom who was really only useful in front of the net, the offensively inept Kris Draper and Kirk Maltby .. Flip was decent but still young and heavily sheltered (59% o-zone starts) ... Mikael Samuelsson was another top 6 wingers and only scored 11 goals in the regular season.

On defense they had Brett f***ing Lebda anchoring their third pairing with Andreas Lilja - hardly stout - and had Chelios who was on fumes in his career.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Their top end talent was world-class but the rest of their roster was pretty meh .. I mean Franzen was a beast when healthy but then you're looking at Dan Clearly as your third highest scoring forward, Holmstrom who was really only useful in front of the net, the offensively inept Kris Draper and Kirk Maltby .. Flip was decent but still young and heavily sheltered (59% o-zone starts) ... Mikael Samuelsson was another top 6 wingers and only scored 11 goals in the regular season.

On defense they had Brett ****ing Lebda anchoring their third pairing with Andreas Lilja - hardly stout - and had Chelios who was on fumes in his career.

We're supposed to be deep offensively but they had more guys with 30 points or more despite facing many more injuries than we did this year. Their middle 6 depth was above average. The 09 Chicago team that won on their offensive depth had less guys with 30 points or more, less guys with 40 points or more, and that was at their peak before the big depth sell-off.

No other team can touch having 2 90+ point Selke winners/contenders + a top5 all-time D + another #1 just for the fun of it. Lilja/Lebda/Chelios aren't enough to drag them down IMO, you have enough quality minutes between Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart/Kronwall that it doesn't really matter, especially with the two-way forwards that team had. Obviously there's going to spots you can't fill in a cap world, but I just can't see a team topping that lineup any time soon unless you get a Miami heat situation (which Detroit kind of was those 2 years with Hossa coming in under market value).