Babcock's coaching method Vs Success

[charliolemieux]

We're supposed to be deep offensively but they had more guys with 30 points or more despite facing many more injuries than we did this year. Their middle 6 depth was above average. The 09 Chicago team that won on their offensive depth had less guys with 30 points or more, less guys with 40 points or more, and that was at their peak before the big depth sell-off.

No other team can touch having 2 90+ point Selke winners/contenders + a top5 all-time D + another #1 just for the fun of it. Lilja/Lebda/Chelios aren't enough to drag them down IMO, you have enough quality minutes between Lidstrom/Rafalski/Stuart/Kronwall that it doesn't really matter, especially with the two-way forwards that team had. Obviously there's going to spots you can't fill in a cap world, but I just can't see a team topping that lineup any time soon unless you get a Miami heat situation (which Detroit kind of was those 2 years with Hossa coming in under market value).

It's a good team. really good team. But it has to be said, I doubt that team beats the 2017-18 Bruins.

 

[TimPeel]

Lol no


Lol no.

I watched every game this season and last, and I feel like we played significantly better last year, especially in the playoffs. Our overall stats improved significantly, but on many nights this team did not give a 60 minute effort. Many of us here lamented the fact that Babcock was trying to play a system that wasn't suited to our strengths. The last bit of flair and momentum this team carried from 2017 was snuffed out in the first game against the Senators. It seemed like Babcock was flabbergasted by trap hockey and never recovered.

The amount of icings and self inflicted errors were significant enough to make me question a coach that insists on stretch passes when our primary stengths are quick close passes out of defensive zone or simply skating the puck with speed out of the defensive zone. Dermott, Reilly, Zaitsev, and Hainsey are more than capable of making smart defensive plays in close. Gardiner can sometimes make those plays as well. Sadly, we haven't really seen Carrick extensively; however, he does have okay numbers for a guy that played so little, so there is potential. which brings me to my next point, Babcock's stubborness with regards to Leivo, Carrick, and Holl. Leivo looked okay this season, but everytime he scored a goal or showed flashes he belonged, he was subsequently scratched. Carrick should have been used as much as Polak, perhaps a little bit more considering he is 22 and is still considered a prospect. Holl just baffled me. The guy comes in scores 2 in 2 and is a refreshingly calm and composed defender during a solid stretch run and you just make him disappear? Borgman should have gotten his fair shot as well. He is a very rugged and surpisingly good puck moving defender. It just pisses me off that our coach never goes for the hot hand so to speak.

I wouldn't spend a penny on a high priced and overrated free agent. I would promote the next round of players from within and force them on Babcock. If I was GM I would also force Babcock to play the best players together. This year the Golden Knights proved to me truly how inept the old boys club of the NHL is when evaluating talent. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the fact that an expansion team is playing the way I envision our team playing and closer to winning the Stabley Cup.

 

[IPS]

It's a good team. really good team. But it has to be said, I doubt that team beats the 2017-18 Bruins.

Prime Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidstrom would have embarrassed the Bruins top line on all 200 feet of the ice.

 

[charliolemieux]

Prime Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Lidstrom would have embarrassed the Bruins top line on all 200 feet of the ice.

Lidstrom was not Prime. He was 37.
I think embarrass is a bit much.
If Dats and Zetts are playing together to shut down the Bruins top line lets remove both top lines from the equation.
After that I give the edge to Boston.

Does Bergeron or Dats win the battle in the faceoff circle?
Does Marchand lick Zetterberg?
Who has the better/hotter goalie?

I think there is a good chance Boston could have beat them. Would make for a good series.

 

[CujosMask]

I won't make an actual comment to avoid outting myself as a blind Babcock worshipper.

 

[drewjenks]

Oh man, some of you fans are so terrible.

Matthews, Andersen, Nylander, Gardiner, now the coach, who took a last place team to the playoffs two years in a row and built them into a top 10 team in the league... a team filled with sophomores and rookies... a team that was in a rebuilding stage 2 years ago... a team with barely any playoff experience.

Can’t blame the coach if some players were invisible and some made boneheaded decisions. He doesn’t teach them to do that stuff.

Relax. A team like the current young Leafs will feed off of this and get better/smarter. Not to mention what management will do (RHD + Tavares?)

I don't disagree, but if we're honest, he didn't take a last place team to the playoffs.

His last place team got some reinforcements a year later:

- Matthews
- Marner
- Nylander
- Brown
- Hyman
- Zaitsev
- Anderson

And then his average team got some reinforcements:

- Marleau
- Dermott
- Hainsey
- Johnsson
- Kapanen

And then his above average team got some reinforcements:

- Tavares
- Pesce
- DeHaan
- Grundstrom
- Borgman

And then his contender got some reinforcements:

- Doughty
- Panarin
- Liljegren
- Bracco
- Sparks

And that's the only reason he won 3 consecutive cups.


Wait what?

 

[Martin Skoula]

Lidstrom was not Prime. He was 37.
I think embarrass is a bit much.
If Dats and Zetts are playing together to shut down the Bruins top line lets remove both top lines from the equation.
After that I give the edge to Boston.

Does Bergeron or Dats win the battle in the faceoff circle?
Does Marchand lick Zetterberg?
Who has the better/hotter goalie?

I think there is a good chance Boston could have beat them. Would make for a good series.

2018 Chara is the #4 D on that Wings team. Lidstrom put up 70 points and was +40 that season, he was better than any two of Boston's defensemen combined.

I genuinely can't understand why you think this, there's no basis for it. Dats and Zetterberg wouldn't be playing to shut down Bergeron, Bergeron would be playing to hope to shut them down. They both were in their offensive peaks that none of the current Bruins have touched while also being better defensively.

Honest question did you actually watch that Detroit team?

 

[charliolemieux]

2018 Chara is the #4 D on that Wings team. Lidstrom put up 70 points and was +40 that season, he was better than any two of Boston's defensemen combined.

I genuinely can't understand why you think this, there's no basis for it. Dats and Zetterberg wouldn't be playing to shut down Bergeron, Bergeron would be playing to hope to shut them down. They both were in their offensive peaks that none of the current Bruins have touched while also being better defensively.

Honest question did you actually watch that Detroit team?

Lol I love Lidstrom but really?
He is still mortal.
Krug had 59pts and more goals than Lidstrom. McAvoy is a stud. Chara can still shut down a player.
Marchand was on pace this season to outscore both Zetts and Dats 07-08.
Bergeron is also a Selke winner and maybe he does shut down Dats.

I think you are looking at that team through the rose coloured glasses of history, and are discounting some important Boston players because of their youth.

Boston gives that team a run for its money and I think could beat them in a 7 game series.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

I like Nylander, I appreciate Matthews talents, but the biggest question this summer has to be if you can count on either of them in the playoffs. Matthews seemed disinterested in the playoffs, Nylander was afraid of the rough going.

Those are two huge problems moving forward. I don't care about much else.

Look at all the stars on Winnipeg and it appears they are going down. To a team of second liners.

I think Babcock has already lost some of the guys. I see Babcock getting fired at some point, I highly doubt he finishes the full length of the contract.

 

[moon111]

I like Nylander, I appreciate Matthews talents, but the biggest question this summer has to be if you can count on either of them in the playoffs. Matthews seemed disinterested in the playoffs, Nylander was afraid of the rough going.

You don't get as great a hockey player (or anything else for that matter) as Matthews if you have an tantrum when losing. He's use to going out and doing something about it. This season, you didn't see it much emotion about that one goal getting called back, but he was pissed. What did he do? Scored another. I honestly think there have been some serious Cup contending clubs built in Toronto that were doomed by injuries. It happens.

 

[AM34WN29MM16]

The more I'm seeing of Babcock the more I think he's a bit of a strange duck (no pun intended). His actual coaching methods do seem more old school, but he's earned himself a year or two to continue the Leafs development. One concern is his how intense he is - maybe too much so. Obviously his history shows he can rub players the wrong way and that's the last thing we need going forward. Marner seems to have taken his line assignments pretty well, but that might be a product of finally being on a line where he could succeed. That took awhile. His treatment of Nylander may be exaggerated but there is definitely something there. And now some hints of discontent by Matthews. That stuff may all be normal, but I have to confess it's a little disconcerting that he plans his family vacation to go to Arizona to meet with Matthews and his parents. Then off to Europe to meet with Andersen; and his parents. This just seems a little obsessive or intrusive to me. NHL players get so little down time in the summers now and if I'm a player I'm not sure I want to have my coach come visit me at my home or especially my parents' home. Actually, it seems a little creepy. Maybe that's just me, but I don't relish the idea of my boss coming to my home.

 

[mapleleaf979]

I like Nylander, I appreciate Matthews talents, but the biggest question this summer has to be if you can count on either of them in the playoffs. Matthews seemed disinterested in the playoffs, Nylander was afraid of the rough going.

Those are two huge problems moving forward. I don't care about much else.

Look at all the stars on Winnipeg and it appears they are going down. To a team of second liners.

I think Babcock has already lost some of the guys. I see Babcock getting fired at some point, I highly doubt he finishes the full length of the contract.

Matthews compete level is his biggest weakness. With Nylander's compete level being worse they can both rub off on one another and make the other one dis-interested. When Brown replaced Nylander on the top line, Matthews had Hyman and Brown both hard working players on his line and it rejuvenated him. Matthews was influenced positively by having 2 workers on his line, he competed his hardest during the playoffs in this situation. This tells me one thing, he needs Marners work ethic and skill on his line to keep him going. Nylander and Matthews will never work long term, the compete levels can negatively impact one or both at any given time , see first 5 games of the playoffs.

Babcock will get fired before his contract runs out.. Ill guess in the next 2 years. Dubas had Keefe in SSM and hired him as Marlies coach. Babcock at times seems more interested in power vs winning. Trolling his star players by over playing Komarov, demoting Marner and Nylander for missed assignments but never punishing JVR /Bozak, under playing Auston Matthews for no reason.

* Who stepped in told Babcock to bench Martin, play Komarov less and give Dermott a look? It all happened at the same time when the Leafs were in a bad losing stretch. Babcock always praised Martin and literally gave up on him overnight, some one from management stepped in and questioned his coaching.

 

[kindalaidback]

Matthews compete level is his biggest weakness. With Nylander's compete level being worse they can both rub off on one another and make the other one dis-interested. When Brown replaced Nylander on the top line, Matthews had Hyman and Brown both hard working players on his line and it rejuvenated him. Matthews was influenced positively by having 2 workers on his line, he competed his hardest during the playoffs in this situation. This tells me one thing, he needs Marners work ethic and skill on his line to keep him going. Nylander and Matthews will never work long term, the compete levels can negatively impact one or both at any given time , see first 5 games of the playoffs.

Babcock will get fired before his contract runs out, Dubas had Keefe in SSM and hired him as Marlies coach. Babcock at times seems more interested in power vs winning. Trolling his star players by over playing Komarov, demoting Marner and Nylander for missed assignments but never punishing JVR /Bozak, under playing Auston Matthews for no reason.

do you ever stop with this bullsh1t?

 

[mapleleaf979]

do you ever stop with this bullsh1t?

Ask any GM in the league, they will echo the same thing.

 

[kindalaidback]

Ask any GM in the league, they will echo the same thing.

yeah, no.

you sit here and blame nylander for matthews' bad games when he has no one to blame but himself. you have been on this 'william nylander is lazy and is dragging his linemates down' train for two years now and it's bs. matthews has not shown yet he can carry linemates that are less skilled than him. nylander, on the other hand, has.

you assume that our players hate playing with nylander, but you can't prove any of this. just talk, no show. and if you watch the games, you can clearly see that matthews enjoys playing with william, based on their interactions on the bench and the ice, them talking about each other in interviews, but you refuse to see/accept this because it doesn't fit your narrative of the lazy swedish guy who only cares about himself and not the team.

and funny that you've mentioned hyman and brown- william was back on that line in every game. and those guys love him.

 

[meefer]

Honestly, my head darn near explodes when I read a thread such as this. Do people actually pay attention to who and what we are and have been? For crying out loud, no really, please, pay attention to this, we are a team two years removed from last place overall and we're seeing people complaining. Over a team that just set a season's (adjusted) highest point total...ever. And yet...WTF is wrong with some people? Yes: he, she, they, them, me and you...we all want more, but for goodness sake is there not a wit of patience residing in that Maple Leaf shell of desire in which you wrap yourself? Of course, Babcock is open to criticism, as is every coach alive. However, unless one knows the intent of the organization's coaching strategy, it may be a bit premature to condemn. Perhaps, while winning is the primary goal, the manner in which victory is achieved is open to interpretation. I'm more than willing to accept the direction that a competent staff lays forward for this team and I believe this staff is, and has proved, it's medal. We would not be where we are, otherwise. So many here rip the moment as opposed to examining the intent. Unless you, or me, know the intent, then our criticisms are somewhat self-serving.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Can’t beat the contender drum, make moves like they feel they can compete, then when they get out-classes in th first round, revert back to the “it’s only been two years” thing.
High point totals are great and all, but mean dick all in he playoffs.

 

[Al14]

Matthews compete level is his biggest weakness. With Nylander's compete level being worse they can both rub off on one another and make the other one dis-interested. When Brown replaced Nylander on the top line, Matthews had Hyman and Brown both hard working players on his line and it rejuvenated him. Matthews was influenced positively by having 2 workers on his line, he competed his hardest during the playoffs in this situation. This tells me one thing, he needs Marners work ethic and skill on his line to keep him going. Nylander and Matthews will never work long term, the compete levels can negatively impact one or both at any given time , see first 5 games of the playoffs.

Babcock will get fired before his contract runs out.. Ill guess in the next 2 years. Dubas had Keefe in SSM and hired him as Marlies coach. Babcock at times seems more interested in power vs winning. Trolling his star players by over playing Komarov, demoting Marner and Nylander for missed assignments but never punishing JVR /Bozak, under playing Auston Matthews for no reason.

* Who stepped in told Babcock to bench Martin, play Komarov less and give Dermott a look? It all happened at the same time when the Leafs were in a bad losing stretch. Babcock always praised Martin and literally gave up on him overnight, some one from management stepped in and questioned his coaching.

It was likely Lou, after being nudged by Shanahan to do so! I do not know this for sure, but, it sure explains why things changed with Babcock!

If it had been done a lot sooner, maybe, just maybe, our Leafs somehow earn home ice advantage!

 

[AM34WN29MM16]

we are a team two years removed from last place overall and we're seeing people complaining.

Please stop this "last overall" narrative. Since 1967 the only time the Leafs have finished last overall is with Babcock as the coach, so what does that say? Either he did a good job intentionally driving them into last place in which case don't argue they were a real last place team. Or he simply wasn't good enough to avoid a last place finish in a year where there were a few other teams that had rosters worse than ours.

I lived through the undying faith of the "in Burke we trust" years and endured both Wilson and Carlyle. We have every right to be concerned about the path forward. I think Babcock is a good coach but he has his flaws that we can all see. I think Dubas is a good choice to be GM but we have no way of knowing for sure. Time will tell. We are blessed with an unbelievable roster that should be successful whether Babcock is coaching them or not. There is nothing I can do so at the very least I'm entitled to vocalize my concerns and criticisms. The minute you have blind faith in others is when you get hit by something you didn't see coming.

 

[meefer]

Please stop this "last overall" narrative. Since 1967 the only time the Leafs have finished last overall is with Babcock as the coach, so what does that say? Either he did a good job intentionally driving them into last place in which case don't argue they were a real last place team. Or he simply wasn't good enough to avoid a last place finish in a year where there were a few other teams that had rosters worse than ours.

I lived through the undying faith of the "in Burke we trust" years and endured both Wilson and Carlyle. We have every right to be concerned about the path forward. I think Babcock is a good coach but he has his flaws that we can all see. I think Dubas is a good choice to be GM but we have no way of knowing for sure. Time will tell. We are blessed with an unbelievable roster that should be successful whether Babcock is coaching them or not. There is nothing I can do so at the very least I'm entitled to vocalize my concerns and criticisms. The minute you have blind faith in others is when you get hit by something you didn't see coming.

Please take a look at the post in its entirety. The 'last overall' comment was not the narrative.

 

[PromisedLand]

Hypothetical, but suppose leafs lose again in the 1st round next year (or not make playoffs); who is to blame? can babcock finally shoulder the blame? or is it going to be:

-Dubas sucks
-Players suck
-Opposition was so much better; their top line is the best in the league

????

 

[mapleleaf979]

It was likely Lou, after being nudged by Shanahan to do so! I do not know this for sure, but, it sure explains why things changed with Babcock!

If it had been done a lot sooner, maybe, just maybe, our Leafs somehow earn home ice advantage!

Yes I think so too. I do think he was on the verge of this team quitting on him. Thats how they were playing.

If the Leafs win the Stanley Cup with this core, Keefe is coaching the team. Babcock is gone, imo in less than 2 years. If they lose next year first round again for the 3rd year, the voices will get louder, 4th year same thing happens, he is gone. If this team quits on him, he is gone. It could happen next year if Babcock goes on his power trips is how I would sum up Matthews lack of playing time, stunning how little he plays her game. Also stunning Komarov playing time.

 

[charliolemieux]

Yes I think so too. I do think he was on the verge of this team quitting on him. Thats how they were playing.

If the Leafs win the Stanley Cup with this core, Keefe is coaching the team. Babcock is gone, imo in less than 2 years. If they lose next year first round again for the 3rd year, the voices will get louder, 4th year same thing happens, he is gone. If this team quits on him, he is gone. It could happen next year if Babcock goes on his power trips is how I would sum up Matthews lack of playing time, stunning how little he plays her game. Also stunning Komarov playing time.

Maybe Matthews should learn to kill penalties?

But now that JVR and Bozak are gone AM should get more PP time and the pts that come with it.

 

[AM34WN29MM16]

Please take a look at the post in its entirety. The 'last overall' comment was not the narrative.

Then why do so many people bring it up?

Essentially your narrative was we should sit back, wait and see what develops. My second paragraph addresses that.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

This guy still has a coaching job?!! Kick this country bumpkin back to Saskatoon.