Babcock

[Blanche Blanche]

It sure looks and feels like we are going down the same road.

The only one ive ever known -
I walk alone -
I walk this empty street -
On the boulevard of broken dreams-

 

[Mr Hockey]

Playing Brown more than Matthews is insulting.

has this happened this year?

 

[saffronleaf]

has this happened this year?

last night, but daisy brings up a good point -- brown is on the PK. I wonder what their ES TOIs are.

 

[Al14]

Same head coach, upgraded roster with Tavares, new season, same problems rearing their ugly heads!

What's up? And no, missing Nylander can't be the only reason!

Sure, we still have a winning record, but, I think we've sustained 2 unnecessary losses! JMHO.

 

[NightTrain1]

Same head coach, upgraded roster with Tavares, new season, same problems rearing their ugly heads!

What's up? And no, missing Nylander can't be the only reason!

Sure, we still have a winning record, but, I think we've sustained 2 unnecessary losses! JMHO.

Ok the questions then become, what constitutes an unnecessary loss. Do we expect the team to win 82 games this year. What is a reasonable loss criteria.

Both Pittsburgh and St Louis, just like Toronto, are in the top 10 favorites to win the Cup this year based on Vegas odds. Now of course odds dont mean everything or anything, but usually they are the most in-depth researched aspects of sports. Pittsburgh is a recent back to back Cup winner with 2 of the best players in the game and we fought them to what was a 1-0 game essentially (and even that one goal was just terrible luck). St Louis is a fast, strong team expected to be a top player as well. I think the only unacceptable loss this year was Ottawa so far although I know what you are getting at.

I dont believe Toronto last season allowed more than 2 losses in a row and I think that is the most important part right now. How they regroup and preform in the next 2 games against another defensively strong Cup contender will be a huge statement.

 

[DarkKnight]

Same head coach, upgraded roster with Tavares, new season, same problems rearing their ugly heads!

What's up? And no, missing Nylander can't be the only reason!

Sure, we still have a winning record, but, I think we've sustained 2 unnecessary losses! JMHO.

I'm glad we mentioned JT, because he's repeatedly said Babs was a factor in him coming here, he has great respect for him and likes his vision. What does he know...

 

[IPS]

Does Brown penalty kill?
because we had 3 penalties, thus he'd probably play more than matthews.

You are aware that Matthews played 2 and a half minutes more of special teams time than Brown did right? He got 7 more seconds of TOI in total than Brown.

I wonder when people will stop this mental gymnastics to defend Babcock, it's getting absurd.

 

[Al14]

Ok the questions then become, what constitutes an unnecessary loss. Do we expect the team to win 82 games this year. What is a reasonable loss criteria.

Both Pittsburgh and St Louis, just like Toronto, are in the top 10 favorites to win the Cup this year based on Vegas odds. Now of course odds dont mean everything or anything, but usually they are the most in-depth researched aspects of sports. Pittsburgh is a recent back to back Cup winner with 2 of the best players in the game and we fought them to what was a 1-0 game essentially (and even that one goal was just terrible luck). St Louis is a fast, strong team expected to be a top player as well. I think the only unacceptable loss this year was Ottawa so far although I know what you are getting at.

I dont believe Toronto last season allowed more than 2 losses in a row and I think that is the most important part right now. How they regroup and preform in the next 2 games against another defensively strong Cup contender will be a huge statement.

No, I don't expect them to win all their games!

The Ottawa loss was a huge disappointment! With a little bit of effort from the coaches, and the players, we could have won one of the games against St. Louis or Pittsburgh. St. Louis came into last night's game ripe to be beaten. Our team looked uninterested in competing IMHO.

 

[Dreakmur]

I have coached for over 30 years and last year was my last. Parents/players and fans all think they can coach better. Think being the important word. Not everything is as it seems. We have played two very good games the last two. Limited scoring chances against but not creating enough good chances at the same time. Reason why... in my opinion Babs is not getting enough buy in to a very simply concept, play below the puck in our zone and be prepared to battle and sacrifice in all areas of the ice to win.

Johnsson who many on here thought should have been playing ahead of Hyman last year is afraid and it shows in his game far to much. The sad part is that Kappy has not been much better. Our best line the last 3 games has been Kadri line as they are all willing to take a hit to make a play.

I laugh when people attack Babs for playing players who play a team game and insist he is stupid. Rewarding players who are fearful with ice time is stupid.

This is my 20th season coaching, and I've seen the same thing. The most common thing I notice is that novice coaches or non-coaches misunderstand is that there is one system that works perfectly for every situation. They look at Babcock's system and poke holes in it, thinking that if he just had a better system, we'd never lose a game.

There is no perfect system.

In terms of how Babcock handles ice time with players, I do think he handles it more as a coach who is trying to teach rather than win. That is certainly the way to coach young players when you're building to a contender. Once we are a contender, I'd rather he coaches to win.

I saw the coaching to win as Nazem Kadri's largest obstacle under Randy Carlyle. He was a young player who was prone to making gaffs, and he was punished by losing ice time. Kessel made the same gaffs and didn't lose ice times. If you're Kadri, how are you not confused? That's why Kessel was moved before Babcock started - because he would have either been consistently benched and lose value, or he'd be a hinderance to Babcock's attempts to teach the young guys to play the right way.

 

[White Shadow]

You are aware that Matthews played 2 and a half minutes more of special teams time than Brown did right? He got 7 more seconds of TOI in total than Brown.

I wonder when people will stop this mental gymnastics to defend Babcock, it's getting absurd.

It's a completely normal response to a few people on here whose M.O. is clearly to discredit the coach. It's Pavlovian with you people. The Leafs lose two in a row and there's a puddle at your feet.

 

[Mr Hockey]

last night, but daisy brings up a good point -- brown is on the PK. I wonder what their ES TOIs are.

Brown actually play 8 seconds less than Matthews, Brown played 3 minutes on the PK.

In my opinion when ever you see something strange in the players TOI stats, its usually one of the following:

• Lots of special team play
• Top line is playing like crap
• other team is shutting down a top line
• Coach is chasing a match up
• blow out
• injury

 

[diceman934]

You are aware that Matthews played 2 and a half minutes more of special teams time than Brown did right? He got 7 more seconds of TOI in total than Brown.

I wonder when people will stop this mental gymnastics to defend Babcock, it's getting absurd.

Tell me just how good was Mathews and his line last night...

They were not very good and that is not Babcocks fault. There is the mental gymnastics for you right there.

 

[Semantics]

Can we say that about any coach that's won a cup? I don't think those Wings team were THAT good.

That's true, considering that Dan Bylsma and Randy Carlyle won the cup as coaches. And Trotz is a good coach, but won when the team had already decided they were going to fire him.

But isn't this all the more reason to suspect Babcock may not be that good a coach? Winning the cup doesn't seem to say all that much about a coach. He certainly does some things well, but his systems don't impress me at all, I'm not sure his systems still work in the modern NHL. I'd love to see what someone like Mike Sullivan could do with this team. I wouldn't want to fire Babcock and replace him with just anyone though. There are maybe 5 other coaches I'd consider on his level.

 

[Semantics]

Datsyuk Zetterberg Lidstrom >>>> Matthews Tavares Rielly

But Matthews Tavares Rielly Marner > Datsyuk Zetterberg Lidstrom Cleary

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Tell me just how good was Mathews and his line last night...

They were not very good and that is not Babcocks fault. There is the mental gymnastics for you right there.

they were fine. but even if they weren't, it is Babcock's fault for insisting on playing Matthews with a dead weight in Marleau

 

[diceman934]

This is my 20th season coaching, and I've seen the same thing. The most common thing I notice is that novice coaches or non-coaches misunderstand is that there is one system that works perfectly for every situation. They look at Babcock's system and poke holes in it, thinking that if he just had a better system, we'd never lose a game.

There is no perfect system.

In terms of how Babcock handles ice time with players, I do think he handles it more as a coach who is trying to teach rather than win. That is certainly the way to coach young players when you're building to a contender. Once we are a contender, I'd rather he coaches to win.

I saw the coaching to win as Nazem Kadri's largest obstacle under Randy Carlyle. He was a young player who was prone to making gaffs, and he was punished by losing ice time. Kessel made the same gaffs and didn't lose ice times. If you're Kadri, how are you not confused? That's why Kessel was moved before Babcock started - because he would have either been consistently benched and lose value, or he'd be a hinderance to Babcock's attempts to teach the young guys to play the right way.

Babs is coaching right now to win in the playoffs as we can not win playing a run and gun game come Jan never mind the playoffs.

Like it or not there will always be different rules for different players. Mathews has been hot garbage these past 3 games and he is still getting his ice time. If that was a player still working his way into the line up he would be watching from the press box.

The proof is right in front of our ice. Two games against teams that clog up the middle and who out man the puck as well as will hit to regain possession and play a heavier game and we have created no offence. It is like getting a free education as we have to adapted a similar game in order to be a team that can win its last game of the year.

Kessel was traded simply because he was a head case who failed to meet any standard you would want from your best player.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

When he does something egregious I will call him on it. The Dermott move makes sense if you actually watched the game.

Dermott was good. But even if he wasn't, scratching a good player because of a poor game does not make any sense. may as well scratch Marner too then

 

[Mr Hockey]

That's true, considering that Dan Bylsma and Randy Carlyle won the cup as coaches. And Trotz is a good coach, but won when the team had already decided they were going to fire him.

But isn't this all the more reason to suspect Babcock may not be that good a coach? Winning the cup doesn't seem to say all that much about a coach. He certainly does some things well, but his systems don't impress me at all, I'm not sure his systems still work in the modern NHL. I'd love to see what someone like Mike Sullivan could do with this team. I wouldn't want to fire Babcock and replace him with just anyone though. There are maybe 5 other coaches I'd consider on his level.

im thinking Babs had to resort to the stretch pass and dump and chase because Mike Sullivan went old school and trapped the Leafs in the neutral zone, like the Blues last night. Leafs are pretty up to date and considered a very fast puck moving team, dunno what you are seeing, can you expand?

 

[diceman934]

they were fine. but even if they weren't, it is Babcock's fault for insisting on playing Matthews with a dead weight in Marleau

No they were not fine Kappy playing like a chicken shit. And Mathew attempting to beat everyone on the ice. Neither are those Marleau fault.

 

[diceman934]

Question for all the individuals who are questioning Babs systems.

Please describe our D zone system and the rotations?

 

[Jozay]

Theres a couple things I dont like about Babcock, but its hard to deny the results. He's done a good job here.

He definitely takes a long time to make adjustments, which is frustrating. I hate the long breakout passes.

Certain things like playing Martin for 40 games, not putting Leo on the 4th line, continuing to play Polak. Once you have his trust, you're good, and if you dont you're f***ed.

I was shocked when he scratched Leo in favour of Johnsson during the playoffs, even though it seemed like such an obvious decision.

 

[Gabriel426]

It’s funny how it is Babs fault that the Leafs lost TWO games and no one is blaming the players.
The Pens game, I must admit, they just lost to a better team. But last night, the players were not playing and just playing really bad. I am not defending Babs or trashing players but JT is making 11mil a year and he is the 2nd or 3rd highest paid player in the league, I expected more from him. Matthews and Marner, if they want that 11mil or 9mil contract comes season end, they need to show more when the team is struggling.
What makes Sid the best player now is that even when he is not scoring, he is doing a lot of stuff that helps his team or at the very least shows everyone that he is the best player in the league.
What bothered me the most last year was the fact that Bozak and JVR, the vets on the team only show themselves when they scored and the Leafs need more than that. They signed JT and I thought, here is a pro that can lead the young guns....I Still beleive he can do that once he settled in.

 

[frizzer1]

they were fine. but even if they weren't, it is Babcock's fault for insisting on playing Matthews with a dead weight in Marleau

Yep...for me it's not all about systems.....I don't know much about them anyway....
It's how he sets up his lines....and his refusal to adjust..
One player on a line who can't perform can kill that line and
right now Marleau is pretty much dead weight...he is not contributing anything other than standing in front of the net..
So how long will it take for Babcock to move him off the line?
Based on Hyman with Matthews.....are we looking at 2 years?

 

[Gabriel426]

Theres a couple things I dont like about Babcock, but its hard to deny the results. He's done a good job here.

He definitely takes a long time to make adjustments, which is frustrating. I hate the long breakout passes.

Certain things like playing Martin for 40 games, not putting Leo on the 4th line, continuing to play Polak. Once you have his trust, you're good, and if you dont you're ****ed.

I was shocked when he scratched Leo in favour of Johnsson during the playoffs, even though it seemed like such an obvious decision.

Polak played the PK and the Leafs D needed someone that played the PK last year instead of another offensive Dman in Carrick. ESP., since Zai was injured last year.
Playing Martin was mainly for protection for the kids, it was a gamble bc if one of the kids got injured by a cheap hit or just not a clean hit, like Peterrsson a few games back, I am sure most here would be saying taking Martin out was a mistake.
As for Leo, I think he did tried to help Leo out as kind of a reward for hard work... but at the end Leo was a shell of himself.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yep...for me it's not all about systems.....I don't know much about them anyway....
It's how he sets up his lines....and his refusal to adjust..
One player on a line who can't perform can kill that line and
right now Marleau is pretty much dead weight...he is not contributing anything other than standing in front of the net..
So how long will it take for Babcock to move him off the line?
Based on Hyman with Matthews.....are we looking at 2 years?

But who are you going to replace Marleau on the top line?
It won’t be Hyman as I think Hyman is better with JT and Marner has a lot to do with JT and Marner is not as fast as Matthews and Willie.
Can’t be Leivo and Brown.
Pretty sure the Ennis experiment failed.
The other option is Lindholm but he is pretty much Marleau light.
AJ is the last option, but he really has not been playing all that well for a promotion. If he is playing like he did in the playoffs, I have no doubt he is already playing with Matthews and Kap.
You can argue Gundy but unless he is lighting it up in the AHL, like 3pts/game, there is no way you promote someone from the AHL and put him on your top line.