Ansar Khan: Babcock to Weiss: Do it Right or You'll Hate the Coach

[RedWingsNow*]

Flip is a great secondary player, but Zetterberg makes everybody better. I made a joke, which often include exaggeration for comedic effect.

If we're taking my comment seriously, note that Fippula was Yoda in the joke, and Yoda was the greatest Jedi ever, so there's that.

The joke implied that Flip was just a passenger on the line. I certainly never believed Flip was ever going to be a 60+ point guy, after years of 40ish points. But he was excellent in his role.

And the truth is, Filppula made Zetterberg, too. Because Filp had the wheels to cover for Z and he was often the first forward back on D.

I feel like we wasted Hudler and Filppula. As soon as they showed us how good they could be, they were gone.

We bring back and Sammy and Bertuzzi and stretch to Bring back Cleary -- but actually skilled, puck possession players like Flip and Hudler? Lost for nothing

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Who are these "average" goalies you talk about?

I don't know. Name some goalies. looking at last year's GAA rankinngs...
Jonas Hiller 25th. I don't think we'd lose a ton with him.
Tomas Vokoun 29th. He's too old. But on a one year deal, I don't think we lose much with him.
Niclas Backstrom. I don't see us losing much.
Nabokov. Same.
Luongo? Price? Lehtonen? Miller?

Plug in any of these guys. There are a lot of capable goalies in this league.
Howard and Crawford are two of them.

The major difference is, Crawford just won the cup.
So that question that exists about Crawford is gone....For now, anyway.

 

[Heaton]

I don't know. Name some goalies. looking at last year's GAA rankinngs...
Jonas Hiller 25th. I don't think we'd lose a ton with him.
Tomas Vokoun 29th. He's too old. But on a one year deal, I don't think we lose much with him.
Niclas Backstrom. I don't see us losing much.
Nabokov. Same.
Luongo? Price? Lehtonen? Miller?

Plug in any of these guys. There are a lot of capable goalies in this league.
Howard and Crawford are two of them.

The major difference is, Crawford just won the cup.
So that question that exists about Crawford is gone....For now, anyway.

I don't see GAA as a goalie stat though, neither with wins. I look at sv% and PK sv% as the two big determining factors.

And I disagree with your last line, Osgood had questions his whole career, regardless of how many cups he won.

 

[Chance on Chance]

I don't know. Name some goalies. looking at last year's GAA rankinngs...
Jonas Hiller 25th. I don't think we'd lose a ton with him.
Tomas Vokoun 29th. He's too old. But on a one year deal, I don't think we lose much with him.
Niclas Backstrom. I don't see us losing much.
Nabokov. Same.
Luongo? Price? Lehtonen? Miller?

Plug in any of these guys. There are a lot of capable goalies in this league.
Howard and Crawford are two of them.

The major difference is, Crawford just won the cup.
So that question that exists about Crawford is gone....For now, anyway.

And put Howard on those other teams and they would probably do the same too.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

And put Howard on those other teams and they would probably do the same too.

Probably is the key word.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Probably is the key word.

Same with yours too. Just because if we have any of the other guys doesnt for sure mean we'd do better

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don't see GAA as a goalie stat though, neither with wins. I look at sv% and PK sv% as the two big determining factors.

And I disagree with your last line, Osgood had questions his whole career, regardless of how many cups he won.

Osgood had questions -- but he was considered Good Enough for the Red Wings for several years until he lost the faith of the fans and the organization.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Same with yours too. Just because if we have any of the other guys doesnt for sure mean we'd do better

Agreed.
But the general point is that I think there are a lot of capable goalies in the NHL who are basically interchangeable.
Crawford and Howard are in that mix.

I don't think there are many guys in the NHL who can replace Pavel Datsyuk.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Okay, do you think the Hawks don't win with Howard in net?

It isn't hard to say that is the only decisive advantage we had over them in that series.

Center wasn't as pronounced with Datsyuk's offense going MIA in that series.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Okay, do you think the Hawks don't win with Howard in net?

It isn't hard to say that is the only decisive advantage we had over them in that series.

Center wasn't as pronounced with Datsyuk's offense going MIA in that series.

At the end of the day, goaltending wasn't a decisive advantage for us.

When Chicago needed to score, they scored on Howard.
When Detroit needed to score, Crawford stopped us.

If Howie plays games 5-6-7 like the first four games, then yeah, I'd agree with you.
But at the end of the day, Crawford stepped up and Howard's play dropped.

 

[odin1981]

Why are people still talking about the chi series? Our top 6 as well as theirs cancelled each other out. Look at the production of both teams players in that series it was nothing to write home about. Kronwall reverted back to screening our goaltender in game 7 and that plus a squirrly bounce off his pad/skate is the reason we were sent golfing.

If their third line outplayed ours that series it would have been over for us in 6 games if we got lucky breaks to stretch it out that far. Our secondary scoring was the reason we got to the second round let alone stretched the chi series to game 7.

 

[BinCookin]

Probably is the key word.

That applies to every statement made on this board regarding players.

I think sometimes you like arguing

 

[Chance on Chance]

That applies to every statement made on this board regarding players.

I think sometimes you like arguing

We could have Lundqvist and then he would complain that he cost to much and we didnt have money for other people.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I feel like we wasted Hudler and Filppula. As soon as they showed us how good they could be, they were gone.

I don't think that's exactly how it went with Fil. It was more like he showed us how good he could be, but then he sort of sucked, and then he left. If he had performed up to par last season, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. He'd be happily making about 5.5 million here in Detroit.

But beyond that, I think not every player can play Mike Babcock hockey. Fil and Huds are good players, but they might just not be good Mike Babcock Detroit Red Wings. Even if Fil goes on and succeeds in T, I don't know that we could point a finger at Holland and say that he screwed up here. Unless we're prepared to say that Holland should have had Babcock change things just to accommodate Fil, which is unreasonable IMO.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

That applies to every statement made on this board regarding players.

I think sometimes you like arguing

Guilty as charged.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don't think that's exactly how it went with Fil. It was more like he showed us how good he could be, but then he sort of sucked, and then he left. If he had performed up to par last season, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. He'd be happily making about 5.5 million here in Detroit.

But beyond that, I think not every player can play Mike Babcock hockey. Fil and Huds are good players, but they might just not be good Mike Babcock Detroit Red Wings. Even if Fil goes on and succeeds in T, I don't know that we could point a finger at Holland and say that he screwed up here. Unless we're prepared to say that Holland should have had Babcock change things just to accommodate Fil, which is unreasonable IMO.

It's common knowledge that Filppula wasn't healthy last year. Red Wings fans seem extraordinarily willing to overlook how bad Weiss was (1 goal in 17 games). Not willing at all to overlook Flip's injury.

We should bring back Danny Cleary, Todd Bertuzzi and Mikeal Samuelsson though - because they are Mike Babcock Red Wings?
Even though they've never been as good as Flip and Hudler here.
Even though they are on the wrong side of 35 (Well, Cleary's only 34...but he plays like he's 37.)

 

[Heaton]

It's common knowledge that Filppula wasn't healthy last year. Red Wings fans seem extraordinarily willing to overlook how bad Weiss was (1 goal in 17 games). Not willing at all to overlook Flip's injury.

We should bring back Danny Cleary, Todd Bertuzzi and Mikeal Samuelsson though - because they are Mike Babcock Red Wings?
Even though they've never been as good as Flip and Hudler here.
Even though they are on the wrong side of 35 (Well, Cleary's only 34...but he plays like he's 37.)

So Filppula wasn't healthy and neither was Weiss. Kinda cancels each other out, no? Especially since one was a playoff team and the other got the 2nd overall pick.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

It's common knowledge that Filppula wasn't healthy last year. Red Wings fans seem extraordinarily willing to overlook how bad Weiss was (1 goal in 17 games). Not willing at all to overlook Flip's injury.

We should bring back Danny Cleary, Todd Bertuzzi and Mikeal Samuelsson though - because they are Mike Babcock Red Wings?
Even though they've never been as good as Flip and Hudler here.
Even though they are on the wrong side of 35 (Well, Cleary's only 34...but he plays like he's 37.)

Sammy has never spiked like Val but honestly he has been more consistent overall. I look at sammy and val if healthy as wash on offense side honestly.

Defensively feel val is the better player. But one guy is getting 3 million and than gone and other got 5.

Cleary yep another old guy both of them but the contract? He has equaled val again offensively or better him in stanley cup year and last year.

In a perfect world I want Val and his 5 million at 29 years old over both these guys unfortunately for same money can have both of them probably for one year and move to future which to me is NEEDED for the same amount of money?

To me having both cleary and sammy healthy for one year is better than one year of fippula's cause in 2008 stanley cup they score 25 points to val's 16.

Val has proven to probably be a little less than a point a game guy. That is not worth having him four extra years for 20 million bucks.

 

[RayMoonDoh]

That's a tough question. I think Howard has the talent and skill to backstop a great team to the finals.
But does he have it together upstairs -- which is an important part of the puzzle for a starting goalie.
Two things really stick out about Howard's play in the playoffs this year.
1) Absolutely spectacular goaltending at times
2) Mindboggling collapses. THird period collapses. 3 games to 1 collapse.




Nah -- I'm arguing against people who are doing same thing but reversing the goalies -- and who have no standing to do so.


if you read my posts, I don't think lowly or very highly of either goalie.
But what it comes down to for me is that you absolutely have to give some credit to Crawford for winning the Cup. You can't ignore it.
Am I saying he's elite? Nope. Am I saying he's top 5 in the league or even top 10? Nope. (Though he's possibly in the top 10 -- I dunno).

But realistically, Howard hasn't done anything in his career beyond be a good goalie.

Guess what. Crawford was just a good goalie, too. And he won the cup.

I dont disagree. I still think Howard has shown a bit more carrying (at times) a comparitively weaker team, all brainfarts being equal. But Crawford does have a Cup. Theyre just about even, in my opinion.

By the looks of this thread, we must be dying for some actual hockey to talk about.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I dont disagree. I still think Howard has shown a bit more carrying (at times) a comparitively weaker team, all brainfarts being equal. But Crawford does have a Cup. Theyre just about even, in my opinion.

By the looks of this thread, we must be dying for some actual hockey to talk about.

Ya am wondering how many loved ones if knew how bad it is for us to wait for hockey seasib would put us on some kind of suicide watch lol

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Sammy has never spiked like Val but honestly he has been more consistent overall. I look at sammy and val if healthy as wash on offense side honestly.

Defensively feel val is the better player. But one guy is getting 3 million and than gone and other got 5.

Cleary yep another old guy both of them but the contract? He has equaled val again offensively or better him in stanley cup year and last year.

In a perfect world I want Val and his 5 million at 29 years old over both these guys unfortunately for same money can have both of them probably for one year and move to future which to me is NEEDED for the same amount of money?

To me having both cleary and sammy healthy for one year is better than one year of fippula's cause in 2008 stanley cup they score 25 points to val's 16.

Val has proven to probably be a little less than a point a game guy. That is not worth having him four extra years for 20 million bucks.

I would say Samuelsson spiked in a similar way in Vancouver when he hit the 30 goal plateau and had a wonderful playoff that same year. In fact he followed it up with another 50 points the following season. Sammy has actually been more consistent in his scoring output during his NHL career, which really speaks to Filppula's inconsistencies. As no doubt in my mind Filppula is a much better hockey player, but that is why the frustration around him is so high.

 

[InjuredChoker]

So Filppula wasn't healthy and neither was Weiss. Kinda cancels each other out, no? Especially since one was a playoff team and the other got the 2nd overall pick.

Only bc they lost the lottery, too.

 

[TatarTangle]

When a coach has a winning percentage close to 75% with a team over 8 seasons I think it's safe to say if you don't want to play his type of hockey you can skip town

 

[Vladdy84]

When a coach has a winning percentage close to 75% with a team over 8 seasons I think it's safe to say if you don't want to play his type of hockey you can skip town

What is that type of hockey?

Relying on the talent on the roster?

Loyal to a fault? Playing favorites?

 

[TatarTangle]

What is that type of hockey?

If any of us knew we'd be behind the bench.

Relying on the talent on the roster?

This can be applied to any coach. Realistically there wasn't much talent on the roster last year, even when healthy. Account for all the injuries and I'd argue he did pretty good with AAA talent for majority of the season.

Loyal to a fault? Playing favorites?

While close only counts in horse shoes, hand grenades and nuclear weapons, he came damn near close to playing his favorites to another Stanley Cup appearance.