Ansar Khan: Babcock to Weiss: Do it Right or You'll Hate the Coach

[RedWingsNow*]

Zetterberg was carrying Flip on his back like the dude was Yoda.

It's sad if you actually believe that. On many nights Flip was the engine of that line. And many people, right here in this forum, made note of that in the GDTs that season.

The real reason for that line's success wasn't Zetterberg "carrying the line."

It was just a good line with three talented and smart player -- and harkened back to why so many people enjoyed Red Wings hockey in the PreBabcock years. Puck possession. All three guys think the game extremely well. Flip's speed more than made up for skating issues of Hudler and Zetterberg.

Filppula's 54 even strength points was one better than Zetterberg - and tied with Patrick Kane, Marian Hossa, and Henrik Sedin -- and more than Claude Giroux and Ilya Kovalchuk.
His 19 even strength goals was tied for second on the team (four behind Hudler).
His +18 was better than Zetterberg's by four and Hudler's by 8.

It's predictable in a sad kind of way that some fans have decided -- all of the sudden -- that Flip sucked. When previous they liked Flip.

Looks like someone here used to think a lot of Filppula.

Filppula has been groomed to become a key player to the top 6 at both ends of the ice. He's defensively responsible, a puck hound, and has great vision.

Like Sharp, he'll probably continue to be a secondary player, but there's no reason he won't continue to become a vital player for the Wings moving forward.

Me, I was always frustrated by Flip's lack of intensity. But I came to the conclusion during the last season that unless there was a serious upgrade (which Weiss isn't), it's probably best to "overpay" Flip.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Maybe you're right. If Cooper goes all out offense like they did this year they could compete for the most goals in the league.

No cooper has said we are going to go to your style of play. We dont have a second line 4th d man for power play except rookie barberio which I dont want to see to play top two lines lol. Not even on power play. Other guys are truly probably useless maybe gudas has the game to do that too. Seems got the game to do everything else and his 5-5 is not bad.

Stamkos has said he is going to focus on d this year two way style and team is expected to play two way game why val was brought in not others. He has to teach the kids. Is gonna be work in progress and probably very ugly at times. Good news is a bunch of the kids have played that way last couple years in ahl for cooper. Problem is purcell malone and maybe brewer have lost a step and the first two suck at d or are nonexistent and brewer is showing signs of being washed up totally.

So a lot more is going to be expected from the forwards and I think that is right way to go. Being third best leading team score wise didnt do us much good except to get drouin

 

[RedWingsNow*]

How? By winning the Cup?

By losing a lot of playoff series and getting worse until we finally gave him the heave ho.

That said, I gained a lot of respect for Osgood when he came back and stepped in and did so well for Detroit in the 08 playoffs.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

By losing a lot of playoff series and getting worse until we finally gave him the heave ho.

That said, I gained a lot of respect for Osgood when he came back and stepped in and did so well for Detroit in the 08 playoffs.

I always loved ozzy and when he fought roy that is highlight of my life as red wing fan I think lol.

 

[Frk It]

Zetterberg was carrying Flip on his back like the dude was Yoda.

Filppula played great in 2011-2012. He took his game to a whole new level. Give credit, where credit is due.

I don't know if he'll ever be able to return to that level, but if he can we're going to look pretty dumb for letting him walk.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You're factually incorrect.
I'm not talking about this year.
What about the last three years?


This team's success?
Come on.

That's the most ludicrous assertion yet. What's success is Howard vital to?

On the first point, lost in the Crawford almost won them the Vancouver series is he was pretty bad in the opening three games. The team and he seemed to pick it up with the return of Bolland. But the guy was by no means lights out in their opening contests of that series.

The next year against Phoenix he was THE reason they got beat in that series. A bunch of soft goals and weak overtime efforts.

So not just this year.... Well then do that with Crawford please.

Howard has been MVP worthy in terms of this team the last two seasons. Was vital, certainly when our cruddy backups come out it shows, whereas Crawford plays about on par with his backups or worse.

Howard is a vital piece of our teams success right now, I hope he keeps it up and I am glad he is cheaper than Crawford. He shouldn't be.

Not vital, what team are you watching, seriously? Hang every loss on him I guess, but the guy has had flat out dominant stretches the last couple seasons.

I am not calling him Lundqvist, but Howard has been fairly good outside of a rough sophomore campaign on Wings teams that you point out daily don't have the kind of talent for our ambitions. Which is it, are we trending the wrong way? Or is Jimmy not holding up his end of the bargain? Seems to be pretty contradictory in your assessment of the team to think they are going farther than you claim they can get and then blame it in large part on him.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

On the first point, lost in the Crawford almost won them the Vancouver series is he was pretty bad in the opening three games. The team and he seemed to pick it up with the return of Bolland. But the guy was by no means lights out in their opening contests of that series.

The next year against Phoenix he was THE reason they got beat in that series. A bunch of soft goals and weak overtime efforts.

So not just this year.... Well then do that with Crawford please.

Howard has been MVP worthy in terms of this team the last two seasons. Was vital, certainly when our cruddy backups come out it shows, whereas Crawford plays about on par with his backups or worse.

Howard is a vital piece of our teams success right now, I hope he keeps it up and I am glad he is cheaper than Crawford. He shouldn't be.

Not vital, what team are you watching, seriously? Hang every loss on him I guess, but the guy has had flat out dominant stretches the last couple seasons.

I am not calling him Lundqvist, but Howard has been fairly good outside of a rough sophomore campaign on Wings teams that you point out daily don't have the kind of talent for our ambitions. Which is it, are we trending the wrong way? Or is Jimmy not holding up his end of the bargain? Seems to be pretty contradictory in your assessment of the team to think they are going farther than you claim they can get and then blame it in large part on him.

You said it. Howard seems fairly good.

Personally, I think Crawford is about the same. a Fairly good goalie.

But he's a fairly good goalie who showed he can win the cup.

Jimmy Howard has not shown that. Not even close.

Both goalies are overpaid, IMO.

As for Howard being MVP -- that's just bunk, in my opinion. I think there's a little bit of USA! USA! going on with some posters here or something.

The MVPs of this team are Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Plug in your average NHL goalie for Jimmy Howard, and we're essentially the same team.

Replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg with average centers and this team is toast.

 

[DatsyukianDeke*]

You said it. Howard seems fairly good.

Personally, I think Crawford is about the same. a Fairly good goalie.

But he's a fairly good goalie who showed he can win the cup.

Jimmy Howard has not shown that. Not even close.

Both goalies are overpaid, IMO.

As for Howard being MVP -- that's just bunk, in my opinion. I think there's a little bit of USA! USA! going on with some posters here or something.

The MVPs of this team are Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Plug in your average NHL goalie for Jimmy Howard, and we're essentially the same team.

Replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg with average centers and this team is toast.

101% agree.

 

[Dekemeister]

Filppula played great in 2011-2012. He took his game to a whole new level. Give credit, where credit is due.

I don't know if he'll ever be able to return to that level, but if he can we're going to look pretty dumb for letting him walk.

Hard to say. I could see Filp really benefiting from a new environment. I'll doubt he'll be as bad as last season again. Anyway, he never looked comfortable in the #2C spot so I prefer Weiss.

 

[RayMoonDoh]

You said it. Howard seems fairly good.

Personally, I think Crawford is about the same. a Fairly good goalie.

But he's a fairly good goalie who showed he can win the cup.

Jimmy Howard has not shown that. Not even close.

Both goalies are overpaid, IMO.

As for Howard being MVP -- that's just bunk, in my opinion. I think there's a little bit of USA! USA! going on with some posters here or something.

The MVPs of this team are Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Plug in your average NHL goalie for Jimmy Howard, and we're essentially the same team.

Replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg with average centers and this team is toast.

But dont you think if Howard were the starter for the Hawks last year he would've had the same (possibly more) personal/team success that Crawford did? It seems you're praising Crawford and denegrating Howard for being products of their circumstances.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Plug in your average NHL goalie for Jimmy Howard, and we're essentially the same team.

Replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg with average centers and this team is toast.

There's a fundamental difference between goaltenders and centers, though: the talent pool for goalies is much, much deeper. Goaltenders 10-20 are not roughly equivalent because they're not very good, but rather because they're all very good. If he's 'average' it's only in a trivial sense, because he's actually a very good goaltender by anybody's standards.

If we replaced Datsyuk and Zetterberg with centers that are roughly as good (compared to the best in the league) as Howard is to the best goaltender in the league, then the Wings would still be in pretty good shape.

Goaltender is also, game in and game out, still a more important position. In that sense, it's a bit easier for a goalie to be MVP. (Not that I agree with the original claim, but it's at least rooted in some sense.)

 

[crashman]

It's predictable in a sad kind of way that some fans have decided -- all of the sudden -- that Flip sucked. When previous they liked Flip.

That's my biggest problem with the opinions on this forum. People also seem to judge guys worth by stats alone.

People talk about Abdelkader like he's chopped liver around here, when all other 29 teams would love to have him at his current contract.

and Mikael Samuelsson might have be overpaid at $3m, but the guy IS useful. I was frustrated last season with all his injuries, but I think he's going to turn some heads this season, if he can stay healthy. People are too quick to turn their backs on players around here.

I guess I'm biased because I believe that just about every forward on a winning team needs to be a 2-way player, unless they possess some elite scoring ability (Pat Kane), or have a big physical presence that can disrupt the oppositions top players (Lucic, Doan)...and those players are very rare. That's why I'm not big on players like Brunner and Hudler. If you're a small, 1-dimensional forward (not named Marty St. Louis), then I don't want you on my team, even if you put up some decent numbers.

As for Filppula, I've always liked the guy and I still do. I didn't want to see him go, but if Weiss can be a solid 2nd line center (which Filp never seemed to be able to prove, for whatever reason) then I think it was the right move to sign him instead. But by no means am I 100% sold on Weiss, or happy to see Filp go. But I guess if he had to go somewhere else, I'm glad he landed in Tampa. I think he's in good hands with Yzerman as his GM.

 

[Heaton]

I still like Filppula, just not at 5m. I don't understand why it's so hard to understand that people's opinions on players change when they make more money. No one really complained about Ericsson when he was making diddly squat. No one would complain about Franzen if he made 1.2m a season. Of course it changes your opinion of the guy, how could it not?

Not to mention I think Weiss is better than Filppula - so how do I compare the two without giving pros and cons?

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

That's my biggest problem with the opinions on this forum. People also seem to judge guys worth by stats alone.

People talk about Abdelkader like he's chopped liver around here, when all other 29 teams would love to have him at his current contract.

and Mikael Samuelsson might have be overpaid at $3m, but the guy IS useful. I was frustrated last season with all his injuries, but I think he's going to turn some heads this season, if he can stay healthy. People are too quick to turn their backs on players around here.

I guess I'm biased because I believe that just about every forward on a winning team needs to be a 2-way player, unless they possess some elite scoring ability, or have a big physical presence that can disrupt the oppositions top players...and those players are very rare. That's why I'm not big on players like Brunner and Hudler. If you're a small, 1-dimensional forward (not named Marty St. Louis), then I don't want you on my team, even if you put up some decent numbers

Highlighted three things.

1st if you cannot find someone who can play on top line in your youth who can play a two way decent game and is not worth a ton more than abby at that contract you have serious problems. Abby is worthless and that is being kind offensively. I get he plays with grit and hits. Yet how much does he affect the other teams players or even seriously slow them down? I would take nyquist 1 million times a day over him 2 years ago. Not just today 2 years ago. Now I get if he is your 4th line mate and only gets 12 minutes a game meaning abby and his job is to disrupt and hit and play penalty kill etc.. but to have him playing where he does with that lack of skill set is seriously stupid to be kind.

2nd I agree you need to be a piece of the puzzle. I think abby has serious worth as a fourth lind grinder type. Anything more is a waste of a guy like tatar brunner who have the offensive ability to help in that roll or nyquist who has a pretty solid two way game and is better in all other areas that matter on the stat sheet!!

3rd You might not watch a lot but Marty is one of the best guys in game defensively he steals pucks he causes the opposition to take stupid penalties when they are on power play he will block shots he plays position wise very well penalty kill. He is ELITE in those two areas so he is as far as it gets from one dimensional. The stats are out there in those two stats he is top 10 like 6th in league year in and year out. He will also go to boards incredible on fighting for pucks for his size etc.. Sometimes is not about size but the heart of a man. These two stats above do not take in consideration his size so dont cut the man for size just doesnt ring true.

The two stats are drawing penalties and steals on 4-5 hockey. I would put him as elite since for the last many years I keep seeing him like top six in those categories I when can find them. He is not datsyuk defensively who is probably by far number one forward in hockey and a true genius he is a step down but he has the heart of datsyuk.

That's my biggest problem with the opinions on this forum. People also seem to judge guys worth by stats alone.

As for Filppula, I've always liked the guy and I still do. I didn't want to see him go, but if Weiss can be a solid 2nd line center (which Filp never seemed to be able to prove, for whatever reason) then I think it was the right move to sign him instead. But by no means am I 100% sold on Weiss, or happy to see Filp go. But I guess if he had to go somewhere else, I'm glad he landed in Tampa. I think he's in good hands with Yzerman as his GM.[/QUOTE

I dont think he is true 2nd line center would rather have him on wing with stamkos and marty to be honest see what he could do in ideal situation lol.

I think weiss is basically 100% more consistent and has a better shot and that matters is a dna thing which spoke about. Tampa gave val 1 million or a year too much as a free agent. He should have taken 3.5 for 4 from detroit and been happy. Tampa though with the plans it has molding itself into detroit DESPERATELY needs VAL more than any other free agent. Sure would take datsyuk on detroit over him and zetterberg for scoring but for two way play? Knowing how to do it right detroits way? Stevie cant get on the ice and really show these kids Val can so paying him 5 million extra I think works out tons in the long term plans.

 

[crashman]

robertguess2013, you seem more concentrated on Tampa than the Red Wings, I think you should be posting in their forum.

As for your comments on Abdelkader, I don't think he should be a staple in the top 6 by any means, but that shouldn't take away from him as a player. The problem was that we really didn't have many better option last year. Calling him useless is simply inaccurate, he played really well with Datsyuk near the end of the season and in the playoffs. I think he was just starting to find a niche as a bit of a "power-forward".

Not sure why you felt the need to defend St. Louis, I was complementing him on being a small forward that I would want on my team, and that's because I know he competes hard and provides elite-level offense. But don't try to paint him as some 2-way dynamo, he's not.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

robertguess2013, you seem more concentrated on Tampa than the Red Wings, I think you should be posting in their forum.

As for your comments on Abdelkader, I don't think he should be a staple in the top 6 by any means, but that shouldn't take away from him as a player. The problem was that we really didn't have many better option last year. Calling him useless is simply inaccurate, he played really well with Datsyuk near the end of the season and in the playoffs. I think he was just starting to find a niche as a bit of a "power-forward".

Not sure why you felt the need to defend St. Louis, I was complementing him on being a small forward that I would want on my team, and that's because I know he competes hard and provides elite-level offense. But don't try to paint him as some 2-way dynamo, he's not.

1st 28 years living in michigan I knew was moving to tampa before that point to be close to real family. So tampa bay lightning fan last 20 years. I stream the red wings games since is not an option to buy here. I have bought the NHL package a couple of the years lately when can afford it.

35 years DETROIT FAN DIE HARD DETROIT FAN. I own one jersey Stevies. I have had a one wallet for the last 31 years is a detroit red wings if I buy something like a lighter is a detroit red wings. My only winter coat I still have is detroit redwings. Have photo collections sweaters and other things and pictures and of any sport is only OF DETROIT RED WINGS CHAMPIONSHIP TYPES.

I DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER JERSEYS OR THIS MEMORABILIA OF ANY OTHER SPORT OF ANY OTHER TEAM.

Do not assume things. If we meet I wanted it to be finals cause really couldnt lose in that regards but if is playoffs I guarantee you every year will actually want detroit to get through. I am tampa fan can go to games greatest thing ever is these new conferences to see the wings every couple of years is really a (want to swear) but (.......) to me lol. So getting a few years a game will be cool. Will be wearing stevie jersey by the way.


On st louis we will agree to disagree. How you said it was in sentence of a guy who is one dimensional which he is far from.

U of M is still favorite team even though like the gators a ton. Lions are above the bucs. Pistons are still only nba team. Tigers are above the rays. Just cause I moved none of that changed.

Hockey is my passion. When hockey is not going on life is a lot a lot less lifeless to be honest am sports fan and was a decent athlete too small and nothing special but tried hard etc.. Was a decent quarterback and point guard. Hockey scared me cause was 12 I fell through ice and tore ligaments in foot that have never been surgery wise fixed or ever fully healed.

Friend blew out his knee while skating. Went to skiing friend went through a barb wire fence. Stopped doing ice sports for fear of dying to be honest or something very bad is a dangerous sport

At 13 moved to kalamazoo and lived one block from kazoo wings stadium. I had a friend who worked there and he would sneak me in and I got to become friends with players coaches etc.. I would talk to them and this gave me the ultimate insight of their true athletic abilities and the how much better shape they were than other sports. I would go and talk to them during the breaks in the locker rooms etc..

So really just cause I like tampa a lot does not mean I am not a winger for life. You would find it hard to find a more die hard wing fan than me I am sure. I know the history I know the team the prospects I go to detroit free press daily for the WINGS not the other areas lol I have everyone I can find on twitter who might give me news on the wings added.

Each person can think what they will etc.. For me to have two teams is not a bad thing. In the playoffs I will be rooting for detroit. Even over tampa. I think thats all that matters now if either wins the cup? That is a good year. I expect detroit to compete for the cup each year. Maybe am hard on some players. Maybe am like babcock in that regards. He seems to have favorites etc.. meaning abby and others. Abby is not even a 30 point guy we got one of those on tampa his name is nate thompson. He does about the same thing with maybe less physicality than abby hit wise but does lead the fourth line energy wise and defensively and does a good job probably without looking similar stats and salary yet he is where he BELONGS on the FOURTH LINE.

I am sorry that is where abby belongs maybe you see something different I dont.

 

[crashman]

@obertguess2013

I'm not questioning your fandom or whatever, just judging by the content of your posts. They are just as much about Tampa as they are about the Red Wings. Excuse me for not really caring about Tampa Bay or your backstory. And for the record, I'm not assuming anything about you, don't assume I am.

I agree that Abdelkader is better suited for the bottom six, no doubt. But calling him "worthless" last season is ridiculously inaccurate. By the end of the season, I wanted him in the top-6 because it worked. The team won games when he was there.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

@obertguess2013

I'm not questioning your fandom or whatever, just judging by the content of your posts. They are just as much about Tampa as they are about the Red Wings. Excuse me for not really caring about Tampa Bay or your backstory. And for the record, I'm not assuming anything about you, don't assume I am.

I agree that Abdelkader is better suited for the bottom six, no doubt. But calling him "worthless" last season is ridiculously inaccurate. By the end of the season, I wanted him in the top-6 because it worked. The team won games when he was there.

I get mad about not giving kids there shots. When a guy doesnt produce. Think we are better served with giving that to the kids and giving others lower jobs etc.. I am quite disappointed that abby couldnt even have a 40 point year. I just dont see it think is 30 points top so he belongs at bottom. He had his chance time to move on. I thought this 2 years ago

I love the kid though and dont want him somewhere else but like I said Val should be here at 3.5 for four.


These guys who move to other teams over a few dollars once you hit that 15 million thing to me and dont give hometeam a discount are not loyal and move down a notch to me to be honest. I am a guy who gets loyalty and would make the hometown choice every time unless was being seriously robbed. Alfie situation took 1 million last year was told would get difference made up. Offered I heard 4 million knew was worth more on market and I would have walked maybe. Actually unless I seriously didnt like owner and gm and coach I would have stayed if was alfie if could get pieces to compete for cup get the cup thing and think he does have a better shot here without ryan if had both? Is debatable depending health.

If you look at my posts will see I talk a lot of tampa is exciting we are turning things around. This from a guy who thought tampa hockey was finished just 4 years ago and we were gonna be moved. Talk about hate what do I become a panthers fan? God no they seem to always suck.

So will be nice to have a team can actually go to games and hope for lol.

I dont expect tampa to win the cup every year or any year. Yet is signs they are coming along and might have a shot down the road that is exciting to me. I know plenty on the draft choices last few years and a little about everyone in NHL.

I am a fan of hockey its my passion Today should be working my blood pressure is through the roof so taking it easy just passing the time waiting for october lol and my life to be right again

I expect detroit to win the stanley cup whether that is feasible or not this year next year the year after and so on hehe.

I think the shortened year and lockout even messed me up more about hockey lol.

You cant change your dna though

 

[Crymson]

On the first point, lost in the Crawford almost won them the Vancouver series is he was pretty bad in the opening three games. The team and he seemed to pick it up with the return of Bolland. But the guy was by no means lights out in their opening contests of that series.

The next year against Phoenix he was THE reason they got beat in that series. A bunch of soft goals and weak overtime efforts.

So not just this year.... Well then do that with Crawford please.

Howard has been MVP worthy in terms of this team the last two seasons. Was vital, certainly when our cruddy backups come out it shows, whereas Crawford plays about on par with his backups or worse.

Howard is a vital piece of our teams success right now, I hope he keeps it up and I am glad he is cheaper than Crawford. He shouldn't be.

Not vital, what team are you watching, seriously? Hang every loss on him I guess, but the guy has had flat out dominant stretches the last couple seasons.

I am not calling him Lundqvist, but Howard has been fairly good outside of a rough sophomore campaign on Wings teams that you point out daily don't have the kind of talent for our ambitions. Which is it, are we trending the wrong way? Or is Jimmy not holding up his end of the bargain? Seems to be pretty contradictory in your assessment of the team to think they are going farther than you claim they can get and then blame it in large part on him.

Howard has been the MVP of the team in three of his four seasons; he carried the team to the playoffs as a rookie in 2009-2010. His single average season came a fortuitous time: the team was, at that point, easily able to score enough goals to win with average goaltending, and anyway he went on to play very well in the playoffs.

Howard is, in sum, perpetually underrated. For his first three years it was said that his success was the product of the system---despite that the defense in 2011-2012 was horrid---and now, despite that excuse being peeled away, he still gets very little credit. Ironically, his biggest advocates outside of our own fanbase are Blackhawks fans, who were rightly very impressed with him last postseason.

 

[Bench]

It's sad if you actually believe that.

Flip is a great secondary player, but Zetterberg makes everybody better. I made a joke, which often include exaggeration for comedic effect.

If we're taking my comment seriously, note that Fippula was Yoda in the joke, and Yoda was the greatest Jedi ever, so there's that.

 

[Chance on Chance]

You said it. Howard seems fairly good.

Personally, I think Crawford is about the same. a Fairly good goalie.

But he's a fairly good goalie who showed he can win the cup.

Jimmy Howard has not shown that. Not even close.

Both goalies are overpaid, IMO.

As for Howard being MVP -- that's just bunk, in my opinion. I think there's a little bit of USA! USA! going on with some posters here or something.

The MVPs of this team are Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Plug in your average NHL goalie for Jimmy Howard, and we're essentially the same team.

Replace Datsyuk and Zetterberg with average centers and this team is toast.

Who are these "average" goalies you talk about?

 

[Chance on Chance]

There's a fundamental difference between goaltenders and centers, though: the talent pool for goalies is much, much deeper. Goaltenders 10-20 are not roughly equivalent because they're not very good, but rather because they're all very good. If he's 'average' it's only in a trivial sense, because he's actually a very good goaltender by anybody's standards.

If we replaced Datsyuk and Zetterberg with centers that are roughly as good (compared to the best in the league) as Howard is to the best goaltender in the league, then the Wings would still be in pretty good shape.

Goaltender is also, game in and game out, still a more important position. In that sense, it's a bit easier for a goalie to be MVP. (Not that I agree with the original claim, but it's at least rooted in some sense.)

Bingo, I say Jimmy is in the 7-10 rang of goalies based on skill and contract but looking at the ones in the 10-15 range is pretty close

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Bingo, I say Jimmy is in the 7-10 rang of goalies based on skill and contract but looking at the ones in the 10-15 range is pretty close

If I rated the goalies like have in past after the cup even I have jimmy at number 8 and crawford at number 12 after the cup.

Before that I had crawford more like 17-24 and was unsure. His playoffs moved him up a ton.

So they are not far apart the money is just maddening as is the length cause guys that are at these numbers a lot of time do not continue to get better. Most often they have a few good years and than disappear.

Crawford having a bad glove hand that was shown last year tells me he has 50/50 shot of just disappearing. Winning the cup though has changed others also and he could move up.

I think all these guys making 5 million is crazy should be probably 6 guys doing that everyone else should be less. That is at like 70 million cap. If was 90 million cap people are going to get 10 million lol. Kinda insane to me for long term in a position one day you can be on top of world and next a wash out.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

But dont you think if Howard were the starter for the Hawks last year he would've had the same (possibly more) personal/team success that Crawford did?

That's a tough question. I think Howard has the talent and skill to backstop a great team to the finals.
But does he have it together upstairs -- which is an important part of the puzzle for a starting goalie.
Two things really stick out about Howard's play in the playoffs this year.
1) Absolutely spectacular goaltending at times
2) Mindboggling collapses. THird period collapses. 3 games to 1 collapse.

It seems you're praising Crawford and denegrating Howard for being products of their circumstances.

Nah -- I'm arguing against people who are doing same thing but reversing the goalies -- and who have no standing to do so.


if you read my posts, I don't think lowly or very highly of either goalie.
But what it comes down to for me is that you absolutely have to give some credit to Crawford for winning the Cup. You can't ignore it.
Am I saying he's elite? Nope. Am I saying he's top 5 in the league or even top 10? Nope. (Though he's possibly in the top 10 -- I dunno).

But realistically, Howard hasn't done anything in his career beyond be a good goalie.

Guess what. Crawford was just a good goalie, too. And he won the cup.

 

[Chance on Chance]

If I rated the goalies like have in past after the cup even I have jimmy at number 8 and crawford at number 12 after the cup.

Before that I had crawford more like 17-24 and was unsure. His playoffs moved him up a ton.

So they are not far apart the money is just maddening as is the length cause guys that are at these numbers a lot of time do not continue to get better. Most often they have a few good years and than disappear.

Crawford having a bad glove hand that was shown last year tells me he has 50/50 shot of just disappearing. Winning the cup though has changed others also and he could move up.

I think all these guys making 5 million is crazy should be probably 6 guys doing that everyone else should be less. That is at like 70 million cap. If was 90 million cap people are going to get 10 million lol. Kinda insane to me for long term in a position one day you can be on top of world and next a wash out.

I think most people agree the top 3 are the King, Quick and Rinne (whatever order you want) then after that its pretty hard to judge.