Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics)

[Avs44]

What I'm wondering is how can teams like Stars afford, Benn, Seguin, Spezza, Sharp etc..

How can the Pens afford Crosby, Malkin, Kessel Letang etc..

And Avs can't afford to at least keep one of ROR or Stastny? They have to use AHLers and 4th liners on their top6.

Very mismanaged team

We could have afforded their price tags, but A) other factors (did ROR want to be here? Did Stastny want to? He mentioned after he signed in St. Louis that he was concerned about the Avs' centre depth sidelining him, did he not?) and B) it seemed we didn't want to, for balance or structure or whatever else you'd like to call it. But we could have afforded it. We signed Iggy at 5.3 after Stastny left, so an extra 2 million from somewhere else? That's a Nick Holden.

 

[Pokecheque]

Sure, you can splurge on a handful of players, like, say, the Blackhawks have done. And every few years shed some players in a regular "cap purge" to replace them with younger, cheaper ones, maybe shore up the depth with a couple bargain bin signings here and there.

But that only works if you have a steady stream of talent in the pipeline. Avs are on their way in that department but they ain't there yet. Before Roy and Sakic took over they couldn't even develop 4th line scrubs on the Cody McLeod level. I don't mean to demean the Highlander, but you should be able to churn out players like that with minimal effort. The closest the Avs came to another banger like that was Brad Malone, and he's not NHL material IMO.

So, yeah, the Avs could have tried to keep EVERYONE, Stastny, O'Reilly, what have you, but there would've been no cap room for quality depth players, none in the system to supplement those few players, and therefore they would've been stuck with a bunch of Holdens and Guenins and Cliches for the foreseeable future until the farm finally got things going.

I don't think that's mismanagement. Well, it IS mismanagement, but not by Roy & Co. I have plenty of gripes about the current brain trust, but that ain't one of them.

 

[tigervixxxen]

MacKinnon is our Crosby, etc. he's the one they MUST pay for. Usually is the older stars that stay and get paid, the younger guys come and go.

 

[the_fan]

Put it this way, Hawks two guys making 10.5 mill each. MacKinnon and Duchene combined will be making close to what one of Toews or Kane is making, yet Hawks are being able to have a winning team every year.

I don't know how can people defend Sakic and Roy. They are not doing a good job with this team for lack of experience how to run an NHL team and it's very obvious.

 

[AvsRobin]

Put it this way, Hawks two guys making 10.5 mill each. MacKinnon and Duchene combined will be making close to what one of Toews or Kane is making, yet Hawks are being able to have a winning team every year.

I don't know how can people defend Sakic and Roy. They are not doing a good job with this team for lack of experience how to run an NHL team and it's very obvious.

Toews and Kane have been making 6.3M each during the time Hawks have been able a competetive team year after year. You know this.

 

[RockLobster]

Put it this way, Hawks two guys making 10.5 mill each. MacKinnon and Duchene combined will be making close to what one of Toews or Kane is making, yet Hawks are being able to have a winning team every year.

I don't know how can people defend Sakic and Roy. They are not doing a good job with this team for lack of experience how to run an NHL team and it's very obvious.

What a nice way to cherry-pick "facts" for your argument...while completely ignoring the reality of the very situation you cited (the Blackhawks) and that they had Toews/Kane on good contracts up until now, and Keith on one of those "backdiving contracts".

 

[Nordic*]

Why not try Everbeard in a Bertuzzi-like role, From his Vancouver days.

Landeskog-MacInnon-Iginla

Tanguay-Duchene-Everberg

Rantanen-Söderberg-Comeau (against 3-4th lines)

Grigorenko-Michell-Skille

 

[Avs44]

Why not try Everbeard in a Bertuzzi-like role, From his Vancouver days.

Landeskog-MacInnon-Iginla

Tanguay-Duchene-Everberg

Rantanen-Söderberg-Comeau (against 3-4th lines)

Grigorenko-Michell-Skille

Everberg has not shown even a fraction of the offensive talent at the NHL level that Bertuzzi had. The guy hit 97 points in his prime...


I don't know why some seem to think that bottom 6 talent forwards can be placed with talented forwards and will suddenly morph into point producers. Top 6 Powerforwards are not converted bottom 6 forwards, they are legitimate top 6 talent.

 

[AvsFan2123]

Why not try Everbeard in a Bertuzzi-like role, From his Vancouver days.

Landeskog-MacInnon-Iginla

Tanguay-Duchene-Everberg

Rantanen-Söderberg-Comeau (against 3-4th lines)

Grigorenko-Michell-Skille

What I'm still trying to wrap my mind around is why not try Grigorenko in a role like that. He actually has legit offensive skills and is capable of putting up points.

 

[Foppa2118]

I'm pretty sure he meant by trading Mitchell and Holden, Grigs and Gormley would get more minutes.

Yes that it is what I meant, thank you.

Core players are struggling; some depth players have stepped up; ergo lets trade the depth guys who've stepped up so our struggling core players and new guys have even less help and stability!...

...something about this plan seems off...

This team is getting nowhere unless the core players step up anyway. Mitchell and Holden's improved play have clearly not won them games, and I don't expect them to maintain that level of play anyway. Mitchell has already returned to his usual overhandling the puck and mistake prone self about three games ago.

I'm not necessarily advocating trading them, ideally they would keep them for depth. I'm just saying if they feel they need to make a trade it likely will have to be guys like them. The other choices are either core players, new players, picks, prospects, or players with negative or no value.

At the very worst it gives Gormley and/or Grigo more playing time that they need to develop and prove whether they can play at this level or not. The point is moot though, I doubt they're moved.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

But as you said, the team is getting nowhere unless the core steps up. Why would they feel the need to make a minor trade like Holden or Mitchell? Maybe use them as a + to a bigger deal that actually brings in someone who can be a difference maker, but I don't see them making a trade at the lower levels just to make a trade. Obviously if they get a good deal for either they should jump on it though.

 

[R S]

Sure, you can splurge on a handful of players, like, say, the Blackhawks have done. And every few years shed some players in a regular "cap purge" to replace them with younger, cheaper ones, maybe shore up the depth with a couple bargain bin signings here and there.

But that only works if you have a steady stream of talent in the pipeline. Avs are on their way in that department but they ain't there yet. Before Roy and Sakic took over they couldn't even develop 4th line scrubs on the Cody McLeod level. I don't mean to demean the Highlander, but you should be able to churn out players like that with minimal effort. The closest the Avs came to another banger like that was Brad Malone, and he's not NHL material IMO.

So, yeah, the Avs could have tried to keep EVERYONE, Stastny, O'Reilly, what have you, but there would've been no cap room for quality depth players, none in the system to supplement those few players, and therefore they would've been stuck with a bunch of Holdens and Guenins and Cliches for the foreseeable future until the farm finally got things going.

I don't think that's mismanagement. Well, it IS mismanagement, but not by Roy & Co. I have plenty of gripes about the current brain trust, but that ain't one of them.

While I do agree with you to some degree, you still have to fault Roy/Sakic for several bad contracts on the current roster. The Stuart trade and unnecessary extension both look absolutely horrendous right now. That's money that could have been used to help get either Stastny or O'Reilly under contract (although I do believe the ROR stuff was unsalvageable). Patrick Bordeleau being extended for 3 years was the first move Roy made after coming on board. Why?? They're also paying Berra more than the average backup and while he's been ok in the last 8-10 months there was no reason to pay that high of a price and then extend such an unproven player.

Yes, a good pipeline from the previous regime could have helped curb some mistakes but there are absolutely contract errors to point at from Roy/Sakic.

 

[dahrougem2]

Put it this way, Hawks two guys making 10.5 mill each. MacKinnon and Duchene combined will be making close to what one of Toews or Kane is making, yet Hawks are being able to have a winning team every year.

I don't know how can people defend Sakic and Roy. They are not doing a good job with this team for lack of experience how to run an NHL team and it's very obvious.

There is zero logic in anything said in this post.

 

[the_fan]

There is zero logic in anything said in this post.

People say Avs have to sign MacKinnon, Duchene etc..that's why they couldn't afford ROR and Stastny and I'm just saying that MacKinnon and Duchene combined will make close to what Toews is making by himself yet Hawks are able to keep all their core players.

Stars are able to have Benn, Seguin, Sharp, Spezza

Pens can have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel

It's the same salary cap for every team

 

[Pokecheque]

While I do agree with you to some degree, you still have to fault Roy/Sakic for several bad contracts on the current roster. The Stuart trade and unnecessary extension both look absolutely horrendous right now. That's money that could have been used to help get either Stastny or O'Reilly under contract (although I do believe the ROR stuff was unsalvageable). Patrick Bordeleau being extended for 3 years was the first move Roy made after coming on board. Why?? They're also paying Berra more than the average backup and while he's been ok in the last 8-10 months there was no reason to pay that high of a price and then extend such an unproven player.

Yes, a good pipeline from the previous regime could have helped curb some mistakes but there are absolutely contract errors to point at from Roy/Sakic.

Oh I'm not about to say Sakic and Roy haven't had their fair share of blunders. The Stuart trade/contract was a ridiculously stupid move, and they know it now. They got overly zealous about trying to shore up cap room in the long term IMO, which led to unnecessary extensions of bad players. Holden's and McLeod's aren't looking nearly as bad right this instant at least. Berra...well, I guess that's the risk of doing business with Francois Allaire. Sometimes he gets it wrong too.

I'm just saying even if it were possible to keep all the young vets on the club, that would leave scant cap room to shore up depth roles. The argument is that the Avs can do what the Hawks are doing, and I'm saying that's simply not possible at this time.

One thing I'll say about their mistakes though--they haven't made the level of blunder that, say, guys like Dave Nonis or Bob Murray have yet. Hell, even Stan Bowman has made bigger mistakes, though he has had a hell of a lot more success too. The Avs current brain trust has taken a measured approach to building both the team AND the system, and IMO it's working...my main gripe is more the day-to-day decisions being made right now.

 

[PeterTheGreat]

Everberg has not shown even a fraction of the offensive talent at the NHL level that Bertuzzi had. The guy hit 97 points in his prime...


I don't know why some seem to think that bottom 6 talent forwards can be placed with talented forwards and will suddenly morph into point producers. Top 6 Powerforwards are not converted bottom 6 forwards, they are legitimate top 6 talent.

I wish we could Rec posts. I would Rec this one.

 

[Foppa2118]

But as you said, the team is getting nowhere unless the core steps up. Why would they feel the need to make a minor trade like Holden or Mitchell? Maybe use them as a + to a bigger deal that actually brings in someone who can be a difference maker, but I don't see them making a trade at the lower levels just to make a trade. Obviously if they get a good deal for either they should jump on it though.

You're right, they likely wouldn't. I agree also that there would be a plus, though what I had in mind wasn't necessarily a "difference maker" per se, just a competent top 9 winger with speed, and a depth D to be a scratch and play behind Gormley.

 

[the_fan]

Everberg has not shown even a fraction of the offensive talent at the NHL level that Bertuzzi had. The guy hit 97 points in his prime...


I don't know why some seem to think that bottom 6 talent forwards can be placed with talented forwards and will suddenly morph into point producers. Top 6 Powerforwards are not converted bottom 6 forwards, they are legitimate top 6 talent.

I agree with this 100%. I don't get all the Everberg love, he often looks like an AHL player.

 

[Foppa2118]

While I do agree with you to some degree, you still have to fault Roy/Sakic for several bad contracts on the current roster. The Stuart trade and unnecessary extension both look absolutely horrendous right now. That's money that could have been used to help get either Stastny or O'Reilly under contract (although I do believe the ROR stuff was unsalvageable). Patrick Bordeleau being extended for 3 years was the first move Roy made after coming on board. Why?? They're also paying Berra more than the average backup and while he's been ok in the last 8-10 months there was no reason to pay that high of a price and then extend such an unproven player.

Yes, a good pipeline from the previous regime could have helped curb some mistakes but there are absolutely contract errors to point at from Roy/Sakic.

How bad are these deals really though?

Bordy costs $50k against the cap while in the minors, and for this year only.

Stuart only has one more year left on his deal, and we're nowhere close to the cap until next year. Plus they still have a shot at moving his bad contract just like they did PAP and Jones. Perhaps by withholding a small amount.

Berra on the other hand would only cost $300k against the cap if they were to bury him in the minors, and he very possibly could agree to terminate his deal at seasons end anyway if he doesn't play well and that appears to be his destination.

Pickard's due for a raise, but he hasn't exactly proven that much, so he won't garner that much. At the end of the day if Pickard outplays Berra, his cap hit next year + Berra's buried $300k cap hit might end up being pretty close to Berra's full cap hit anyway, so it's a wash since you potentially get the good backup you were hoping for at that price.

Most of the top teams are carrying some sort of withheld salary or buyout cap hit. Are they really going to get hamstringed that much in comparison by any of these contracts?

 

[dahrougem2]

People say Avs have to sign MacKinnon, Duchene etc..that's why they couldn't afford ROR and Stastny and I'm just saying that MacKinnon and Duchene combined will make close to what Toews is making by himself yet Hawks are able to keep all their core players.

Stars are able to have Benn, Seguin, Sharp, Spezza

Pens can have Crosby, Malkin and Kessel

It's the same salary cap for every team

Because there's nothing similar at all about the situations.

Kane and Toews just started making 10.5M per season this year. They have literally zero cap space and that's with Keith being signed to an amazing deal, Hjalmarsson having a very friendly contract, and a crazy influx of cheap, young talent to work with.

The Penguins have Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. Well, look at the rest of the team. There's a reason the Penguins haven't done anything since 2009.

The Stars have Benn, Seguin, Sharp, and Spezza. Great. They have 1M in cap space and haven't invested a ton into their defence corps while also having cheap, young talent up front aside from the mentioned 4.

We have 10M in cap space, but next season EJ's deal kicks in, and we're going to need to extend MacKinnon and Barrie. That'll be 9-10M right there. We also don't have the luxury of having cheap, young talent to work with. It's starting with players like Zadorov, Grigorenko, Rantanen, Everberg, and hopefully down the line Bigras, Bleackley, Meloche, etc. Sure this team could have kept Stastny but he didn't want to play 3C here. Duchene was already a C and he knew all along the plan was for MacKinnon to move to C, so I don't blame him for wanting to leave. The O'Reilly decision, while I've always maintained there was a choice, he simply priced himself out of here. We would have needed to trade Duchene to make it work with him and management did not want to do that.

MacKinnon, Duchene, Landeskog, EJ, Barrie, and Varlamov. That's 6 core players. How many more do you want? Teams don't usually have that many core players. The Hawks have Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson. 6 core players. Everyone else is on the roster to fit with them and built around them.

If you're going to look for something to pinpoint on this management team, then point to the fact that the supporting cast just doesn't fit with the core players on this roster. Management has tried to bring players in and make necessary moves to make this team better, I'm not faulting them for a lack of effort, but the pieces don't fit. That's where the problem lies with this team. Not the fact that we didn't keep Stastny and O'Reilly

 

[Stories]

How bad are these deals really though?

Bordy costs $50k against the cap while in the minors, and for this year only.

Stuart only has one more year left on his deal, and we're nowhere close to the cap until next year. Plus they still have a shot at moving his bad contract just like they did PAP and Jones. Perhaps by withholding a small amount.

Berra on the other hand would only cost $300k against the cap if they were to bury him in the minors, and he very possibly could agree to terminate his deal at seasons end anyway if he doesn't play well and that appears to be his destination.

Pickard's due for a raise, but he hasn't exactly proven that much, so he won't garner that much. At the end of the day if Pickard outplays Berra, his cap hit next year + Berra's buried $300k cap hit might end up being pretty close to Berra's full cap hit anyway, so it's a wash since you potentially get the good backup you were hoping for at that price.

Most of the top teams are carrying some sort of withheld salary or buyout cap hit. Are they really going to get hamstringed that much in comparison by any of these contracts?

We aren't against the cap now, but if we want to retain Barrie and Mackinnon, they're both due for at least $2m+ on each of their cap hits, EJ's cap hit goes up $2.25 and need to replace guys like Tanguay.

 

[Foppa2118]

We aren't against the cap now, but if we want to retain Barrie and Mackinnon, they're both due for at least $2m+ on each of their cap hits, EJ's cap hit goes up $2.25 and need to replace guys like Tanguay.

And they're able to afford those raises with Berra, Bordy, and Stuart.

Stuart being over paid by about $1m more than the type of D man they should have signed instead wouldn't have helped them keep ROR or Stastny. He's only under contract for one year where they'll be close to the cap, and ROR and Soda cost $2-3M more on multi year deals than Soda does who replaced them essentially.

They weren't going to be able to afford expensive long term deals on MacK, Landy, Duchene, EJ, Barrie, Varly, and one of ROR or Staz at the same time either way. Not if they wanted to pay for depth, and improve on the wing. Stuart and the other deals didn't factor in.

 

[the_fan]

Because there's nothing similar at all about the situations.

Kane and Toews just started making 10.5M per season this year. They have literally zero cap space and that's with Keith being signed to an amazing deal, Hjalmarsson having a very friendly contract, and a crazy influx of cheap, young talent to work with.

The Penguins have Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. Well, look at the rest of the team. There's a reason the Penguins haven't done anything since 2009.

The Stars have Benn, Seguin, Sharp, and Spezza. Great. They have 1M in cap space and haven't invested a ton into their defence corps while also having cheap, young talent up front aside from the mentioned 4.

We have 10M in cap space, but next season EJ's deal kicks in, and we're going to need to extend MacKinnon and Barrie. That'll be 9-10M right there. We also don't have the luxury of having cheap, young talent to work with. It's starting with players like Zadorov, Grigorenko, Rantanen, Everberg, and hopefully down the line Bigras, Bleackley, Meloche, etc. Sure this team could have kept Stastny but he didn't want to play 3C here. Duchene was already a C and he knew all along the plan was for MacKinnon to move to C, so I don't blame him for wanting to leave. The O'Reilly decision, while I've always maintained there was a choice, he simply priced himself out of here. We would have needed to trade Duchene to make it work with him and management did not want to do that.

MacKinnon, Duchene, Landeskog, EJ, Barrie, and Varlamov. That's 6 core players. How many more do you want? Teams don't usually have that many core players. The Hawks have Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson. 6 core players. Everyone else is on the roster to fit with them and built around them.

If you're going to look for something to pinpoint on this management team, then point to the fact that the supporting cast just doesn't fit with the core players on this roster. Management has tried to bring players in and make necessary moves to make this team better, I'm not faulting them for a lack of effort, but the pieces don't fit. That's where the problem lies with this team. Not the fact that we didn't keep Stastny and O'Reilly

At least Pens are making the playoffs, Avs have made the playoffs once in what, last 5 or 6 years?

Avs core isn't good enough to throw in bunch of scrubs with them and expect them to win.

Comeau might have produced for the Pens on top 6 playing with someone like Crosby or Malkin but Duchene isn't Crosby or Malkin. Duchene needs talented players to play with.

Crosby can make an average player look like a star, but Duchene needs someone talented to play with.

Same goes with the Hawks core, they are much better than the Avs core, that's why you can throw in young guys or 3rd liners and Toews, Kane etc.. will make them produce.

I know i said i'm glad they didn't pay all that money to keep ROR and Stastny, but now i'm wishing they did.

 

[AvsRobin]

And they're able to afford those raises with Berra, Bordy, and Stuart.

Stuart being over paid by about $1m more than the type of D man they should have signed instead wouldn't have helped them keep ROR or Stastny. He's only under contract for one year where they'll be close to the cap, and ROR and Soda cost $2-3M more on multi year deals than Soda does who replaced them essentially.

They weren't going to be able to afford expensive long term deals on MacK, Landy, Duchene, EJ, Barrie, Varly, and one of ROR or Staz at the same time either way. Not if they wanted to pay for depth, and improve on the wing. Stuart and the other deals didn't factor in.

Those things add up you know.

Iginla, McLeod, Bordeleau, Stuart, Holden and Berra combine for 14.36M when we need to sign MacKinnon and Barrie to extension. That isn't the best cap management.

I know this board hate Jim Nill, but signing Spezza to 7.5M doesn't hurt cause the deal expire when Seguin needs to be re-signed. And Hemskys 4M expire when Benn need to be re-signed.

There is just at least one year too many on the deal above for them to not hurt at all.

 

[dahrougem2]

At least Pens are making the playoffs, Avs have made the playoffs once in what, last 5 or 6 years?

Avs core isn't good enough to throw in bunch of scrubs with them and expect them to win.

Comeau might have produced for the Pens on top 6 playing with someone like Crosby or Malkin but Duchene isn't Crosby or Malkin. Duchene needs talented players to play with.

Crosby can make an average player look like a star, but Duchene needs someone talented to play with.

Same goes with the Hawks core, they are much better than the Avs core, that's why you can throw in young guys or 3rd liners and Toews, Kane etc.. will make them produce.

I know i said i'm glad they didn't pay all that money to keep ROR and Stastny, but now i'm wishing they did.

I don't know what you expect, there isn't an endless salary cap just for the Avs. Why you're trying to compare this team's core with other teams who have won the cup RIGHT NOW is asinine. Why pinpoint the Hawks' core? Because that team has won 3 cups? Even before Kane and Toews got drafted that team's management was changing the culture and stockpiling and insane amount of youthful talent. It was the icing on the cake getting Toews and Kane.

Please, build me the Avs team keeping both Stastny and O'Reilly while also factoring in EJ, MacK, and Barrie extensions for next season. Please, I'd love to see what you come up with