Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Roster Moves (related topics) ‎

[Lonewolfe2015]

I genuinely wish I had gotten to watch Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, Blake and Roy in their prime together. I actively started watching hockey at the end when that was all but over and most of them weren't even on the team anymore. When looking back on it, I've actually only gotten to be a fan of the team through 4 playoff rounds, disappointingly.

 

[agentblack]

david legwand got 2nd + B prospect that year. me thinks stastny would've gotten more than that.

this though..

Oh good lord Foppa. whatever . Like was he even trying?

 

[Freudian]

Oh good lord Foppa. whatever . Like was he even trying?

He said that his coach in high school (they have a special hockey high school in his home town) forced them to try to hit the plexi glass with one handed backhands.

Then he called crossbar and hit it twice.

 

[CalderKing21]

Forsberg spoiled me for hockey. Dude was so damn good and even when he was playing hard(which was always) he made it look so smooth.

 

[ABasin]

You knowingly crafted this hypothetical question to be the most extreme in your favor, and chose O'Reilly I believe not solely because of his contract situation, but because you know how I felt about him on the Avs (I'd have traded Matt Duchene before trading Ryan O'Reilly--if it meant O'Reilly would've re-signed with us).

OK before we move on to the meat of your post:

Dude, how long have we known each other on this board - a dozen years? Why are you running these AB conspiracy theories up the flagpole? 'You go back in time and make the answer fit your point of view, AB'. 'You crafting this question because you know how I feel about a guy, AB'.

As I stated yesterday, my opinion today on Stastny matches exactly what it was in 2013/2014, and my bringing up O'Reilly was solely because it was another top-end UFA-to-be that Colorado had to do something about during a rebuild process, just like Stastny. In recent years, what other top-end UFA-to-be scenarios have the Avs had to face? They've had plenty of top-end RFA scenarios to deal with. But what other top-end UFA-to-be scenarios? Very few, my friend. I see EJ, but none other comes to mind. I needed another UFA-to-be comparison. With that background, you can't see why I chose O'Reilly as my hypothetical subject?

RL, I promise I have no ulterior motive here. Can you please stop this sort of thing and just have a discussion with me?

Ryan O'Reilly is not Paul Stastny. Stastny's trade value was lower prior to the 2013-14 season based on his prior seasons play. And while I would wager that it rebounded because of his play up until the 13-14 deadline, I still don't believe he would've netted a return that was worth trading him then. I don't think he would've gotten more than a 2nd and a B prospect...possible outside chance of a late 1st and a lower-tier prospect.

You're totally missing the apt comparison. I wasn't attempting to compare O'R with Stastny per se. I was attempting to match last season with the 2013-14 season for the team, then apply potentially losing a UFA to it. You said that I was ignoring where the Avs were during THAT season, insinuating that sometimes a team needs to eat a UFA loss when they're having THAT season. So, the main part of my hypothetical situation was that Colorado (once again primarily due to outstanding goaltending) was having another THAT season, even though there is obviously a very soft underbelly to the rebuilding roster.

You're building an argument that ONLY suits your POV with regards to Stastny. You continue to ignore what he meant to the Avs that particular year and why he was worth more to them on the team than in a trade.

You are also implying that the contract situation between O'Reilly and Stastny were somehow at all similar--they weren't. While I love Ryan O'Reilly to death as a player, and I defend his right to maximize every penny he can out of his career, the fact remains that there never appeared to be any bumps in the road between Stastny and the Avs. So with that there was reason to believe that the Avs would find a way to keep him (and were even said to be one of the two teams he was deciding between).

But I will answer your question (despite my abhorrence to the way you've crafted it):

Ooof. OK, since I've (somehow) caused offense, please allow me to change my hypothetical situation. Here goes:

-------------

[begin hypothetical situation, version 2]

If the Avs had handled the EJ situation identically to how they handled the Stastny situation:
- last summer, Colorade couldn't reach a contract agreement with EJ,
- but instead of trading him, they chose to keep him like they did with Stastny,
- Varlamov played out of his mind and carried Colorado to a good season and a solid playoff position (just like he did in 2014) on February 28, 2016,
- EJ is going to leave via UFA in the summer of 2016.

[end hypothetical situation, version 2]

Question: Should Colorado have traded EJ at the 2016 deadline?


Now, if your answer is 'no' (just like your answer for Stastny was 'no'), I want you to envision this team right now entering the 2016-17 season, but without Erik Johnson on defense, and no return of nice assets either.

How does that look moving forward?

And would that future be worth a couple of home playoff games?

-------------

Is that better?

 

[AvsGuy]

That's faster than my two-handed forehand shot, lol wtf

 

[RockLobster]

Is that better?

I answered your question already:

I'd trade O'Reilly given how his personal, unique-to-him, not-at-all-similar-to-Stastny, situation unfolded. I'm fine with trading pending UFA's depending on their specific circumstances. I would've hated to see Hejda go during the 2014-15 trade deadline, but I know that the Avs were trying to deal him, and apparently even had something set up that would've ultimately netted them Wiercioch (who, of course, we just ended up signing much later), but it fell through (I unfortunately don't know the reasons surrounding that). Context of situation for every pending UFA plays a role.

I've had the discussion with you, which usually ends with us still firmly entrenched in our opinions, but then at some point is followed by you bringing up the Stastny situation again, and once again discussing it as the wrong move without putting it into the context it deserves. That's why I said I'm "done debating this ********". Because I genuinely disapprove/disagree of how you go around saying that it was stupid to keep Stastny while ignoring the context of his situation at hand while offering a comment that usually goes along the lines of "I didn't think keeping him was worth a few home playoff games". And when you ask a hypothetical question about O'Reilly and HIS situation, yes, it comes off as you trying to spin your narrative. Pending UFA status aside, the two could not be further apart.

 

[ABasin]

I answered your question already:

I changed the scenario.

 

[Nihiliste]

The Stastny situation was a mistake for sure, but I agree that it was not trading him in the offseason as opposed to the draft which was a problem. I would have loved another 1st in the 2013 draft + something over one fun season.

Honestly though, there have been so many major mistakes since the beginning of the rebuild it hardly seems worth harping on. There are too many to count.

 

[tucker3434]

OK before we move on to the meat of your post:

Dude, how long have we known each other on this board - a dozen years? Why are you running these AB conspiracy theories up the flagpole? 'You go back in time and make the answer fit your point of view, AB'. 'You crafting this question because you know how I feel about a guy, AB'.

As I stated yesterday, my opinion today on Stastny matches exactly what it was in 2013/2014, and my bringing up O'Reilly was solely because it was another top-end UFA-to-be that Colorado had to do something about during a rebuild process, just like Stastny. In recent years, what other top-end UFA-to-be scenarios have the Avs had to face? They've had plenty of top-end RFA scenarios to deal with. But what other top-end UFA-to-be scenarios? Very few, my friend. I see EJ, but none other comes to mind. I needed another UFA-to-be comparison. With that background, you can't see why I chose O'Reilly as my hypothetical subject?

RL, I promise I have no ulterior motive here. Can you please stop this sort of thing and just have a discussion with me?



You're totally missing the apt comparison. I wasn't attempting to compare O'R with Stastny per se. I was attempting to match last season with the 2013-14 season for the team, then apply potentially losing a UFA to it. You said that I was ignoring where the Avs were during THAT season, insinuating that sometimes a team needs to eat a UFA loss when they're having THAT season. So, the main part of my hypothetical situation was that Colorado (once again primarily due to outstanding goaltending) was having another THAT season, even though there is obviously a very soft underbelly to the rebuilding roster.





Ooof. OK, since I've (somehow) caused offense, please allow me to change my hypothetical situation. Here goes:

-------------

[begin hypothetical situation, version 2]

If the Avs had handled the EJ situation identically to how they handled the Stastny situation:
- last summer, Colorade couldn't reach a contract agreement with EJ,
- but instead of trading him, they chose to keep him like they did with Stastny,
- Varlamov played out of his mind and carried Colorado to a good season and a solid playoff position (just like he did in 2014) on February 28, 2016,
- EJ is going to leave via UFA in the summer of 2016.

[end hypothetical situation, version 2]

Question: Should Colorado have traded EJ at the 2016 deadline?


Now, if your answer is 'no' (just like your answer for Stastny was 'no'), I want you to envision this team right now entering the 2016-17 season, but without Erik Johnson on defense, and no return of nice assets either.

How does that look moving forward?

And would that future be worth a couple of home playoff games?

-------------

Is that better?

If in that hypothetical we've got an Ekblad waiting to take over the 1D spot, yeah I take my chances on the playoffs and hoping to sign him later.

I just don't place all that much value on rental packages.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

The Stastny situation was a mistake for sure, but I agree that it was not trading him in the offseason as opposed to the draft which was a problem. I would have loved another 1st in the 2013 draft + something over one fun season.

Honestly though, there have been so many major mistakes since the beginning of the rebuild it hardly seems worth harping on. There are too many to count.

Would we have even gotten a first? He was coming off some average at best seasons with a high salary and cap hit before Roy got here.

 

[RockLobster]

I changed the scenario.

No you didn't, you changed out "Ryan O'Reilly" for "Erik Johnson". That's literally all you did.

Hypothetical Question 1:

If the Avs had handled the O'R situation identically to how they handled the Stastny situation:
- last summer, Colorade couldn't reach a contract agreement with O'R,
- but instead of trading him, they chose to keep him like they did with Stastny,
- Varlamov played out of his mind and carried Colorado to a good season and a solid playoff position (just like he did in 2014) on February 28, 2016,
- O'R is going to leave via UFA in the summer of 2016.

Hypothetical Question 2:

If the Avs had handled the EJ situation identically to how they handled the Stastny situation:
- last summer, Colorade couldn't reach a contract agreement with EJ,
- but instead of trading him, they chose to keep him like they did with Stastny,
- Varlamov played out of his mind and carried Colorado to a good season and a solid playoff position (just like he did in 2014) on February 28, 2016,
- EJ is going to leave via UFA in the summer of 2016.

Exact same thing, just swapped some letters out.

Oh, and you do realize that it appears you're using the benefit of hindsight from the last 2 seasons as reason why the Avs should've traded Stastny at the 13-14 deadline, at least that's what it looks like with this statement:

I get that a couple of home playoff games are good clean fun for a lot of people. But that wears off rather quickly for me, if the team goes back to mediocre/lousy right afterwards.

We had no way of knowing that the Avs would miss the playoffs the next two seasons. Yes, they had holes on the roster, but they also were playoff bubble teams, with this past season being especially difficult since Minnesota did everything they could to just hand a PO spot to the Avs.

I'm not trying to piss you off or anything, but I think it's more than quite clear that you and I will never, ever, agree on this situation. Nor do I think the Stastny situation is always going to apply to their future decision making.

 

[AvsGuy]

People love to overanalyze the Stastny situation when in reality he was a good young player whose best days are demonstrably behind him. It's never a mistake to keep your talent in place for a playoff run, let alone when you're 3rd in the league with justifiable playoff hopes, and it's never a mistake to let someone else sign your player for $7 million a year when you know he's worth $5 million tops. The whole "trade him/don't trade him/sign him/don't sign him" discussion is so pointless at this stage for a player who was primarily a non-factor and is even more so now.

 

[AvsGuy]

I genuinely wish I had gotten to watch Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, Blake and Roy in their prime together. I actively started watching hockey at the end when that was all but over and most of them weren't even on the team anymore. When looking back on it, I've actually only gotten to be a fan of the team through 4 playoff rounds, disappointingly.

It was quite the time to be alive, lemme tell ya. The 3 trade deadlines where we acquired Theo Fleury, Ray Bourque and Rob Blake - just bananas. That team was so seamless and competitive that it was really easy to be an Avalanche fan.

 

[Pokecheque]

I genuinely wish I had gotten to watch Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, Blake and Roy in their prime together. I actively started watching hockey at the end when that was all but over and most of them weren't even on the team anymore. When looking back on it, I've actually only gotten to be a fan of the team through 4 playoff rounds, disappointingly.

I wish I had allowed myself to enjoy it more. Except for the '01 Stanley Cup run they tended to frustrate me a lot, especially when they always seemingly played down to the level of the Flames and Oilers who just weren't that good at the time.

Still, I wasn't a complete moron. Watching those guys do their thing was something to behold, especially Joe Sakic at age 31 completely own the NHL in 2000-2001.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

Pretty sure ABasin wanted to trade Stastny in the summer, when he wouldn't sign an extension. The trade deadline was just an extension to AB's wishes.

From what I recall, AB has always had that stance -- trade them if you can't re-sign them, or if they are going to retire and you're not making the playoffs.

Think he wanted to trade the Duke, and maybe even Sakic, when they were in the final months of their careers...

**NOTE**
I said "I think" this was AB's stance -- forgive me if I'm wrong...

 

[ABasin]

No you didn't, you changed out "Ryan O'Reilly" for "Erik Johnson". That's literally all you did.

Yes, since you seemingly got so offended and you felt I was baiting you with O'R. Which I wasn't. I'd run a third hypothetical, but I've run out of Avalanche UFA resignings.

And since you stated that the Avs should trade O'R in my hypothetical (where I matched the team's playoff situation between 2014 and 2016), we agree at some level in regards to this issue.

Oh, and you do realize that it appears you're using the benefit of hindsight from the last 2 seasons as reason why the Avs should've traded Stastny at the 13-14 deadline, at least that's what it looks like with this statement:

If the Avs had started winning for multiple years in a row over the past few years, then my opinion from 2013-14 in regards to rebuilding teams trading UFAs-to-be (Stastny in this case) would have been proven to be incorrect, and I'd be posting a different opinion now.

And it's not like I'm bandwagoning this issue two years after the fact, RL. You're making it sound like I had no opinion back then, and I'm catcalling from the cheap seats now with the benefit of hindsight. In 2013, I said it was a mistake, and in 2016 I'm saying it was a mistake. I've been entirely consistent the whole time.

I'm not trying to piss you off or anything, but I think it's more than quite clear that you and I will never, ever, agree on this situation. Nor do I think the Stastny situation is always going to apply to their future decision making.

I'm not pissed at the discussion at all. In fact, I enjoy the debate. I just don't like the insinuation that I have some ulterior motives or something. I simply believe that rebuilding teams shouldn't do certain things - regardless of most specifics.

 

[ABasin]

Pretty sure ABasin wanted to trade Stastny in the summer, when he wouldn't sign an extension. The trade deadline was just an extension to AB's wishes..

Correct.

From what I recall, AB has always had that stance -- trade them if you can't re-sign them, or if they are going to retire and you're not making the playoffs..

For many years now, yes.

This is especially true for rebuilding teams. If you cannot sign your UFAs, get something for them.

Now, if you are a perennial playoff team that finishes in the top dozen-ish in the league in the regular season, then knock yourself out. Take the shot.

Think he wanted to trade the Duke, and maybe even Sakic, when they were in the final months of their careers...

**NOTE**
I said "I think" this was AB's stance -- forgive me if I'm wrong...

Good memory, Bubba. Especially for a fellow old guy.

To add some color to our trip down memory lane, I wanted to move Hejduk later in his career (I'm pretty sure it was early in the Sacco years when Hejduk was getting into his mid-30s, but was still a good player - around 2010-11). It was obvious that this wasn't going to be a very good team for awhile, and Hejduk had value.

I strongly advocated trading Joe Sakic during the 2007 season, as I didn't see very many good young players on that meh roster, and a 37 year old Sakic simply turned back the clock and was utterly carrying that team on his creaky shoulders. 100 points at age 37! It was obvious to me that it was unlikely Sakic would have been able to repeat anything close to that at his age, and the Avs could have reaped a wonderful return for him at that year's deadline. At that same trade deadline, the Flyers traded an injured and broken down Peter Forsberg for two former 1st round pick prospects + a 1st + a 3rd. I said then, and I still believe it now, that the Avs could have quite possibly traded Sakic for one of Nashville's 21 year old defensemen at the time: Weber, Suter, or Hamhuis (Hamhuis might have been a year or two older, I forget).

 

[RockLobster]

And since you stated that the Avs should trade O'R in my hypothetical (where I matched the team's playoff situation between 2014 and 2016), we agree at some level in regards to this issue.

I'm not sure we do. I believe that context of the situation matters, it appears you do not. I said I'd trade O'Reilly given his situation played out exactly as it did. So his contract stuff, his production, all of it.

You continue to say that it was a mistake for the Avs to not trade Stastny at the TDL, while disregarding the extenuating circumstances around him (the team's place in the standings, his importance to the team, line chemistry, what message that sends to the team, etc).

And it's not like I'm bandwagoning this issue two years after the fact, RL. You're making it sound like I had no opinion back then, and I'm catcalling from the cheap seats now with the benefit of hindsight. In 2013, I said it was a mistake, and in 2016 I'm saying it was a mistake. I've been entirely consistent the whole time.

While I have stated that I now remember you having the stance, and therefore withdrew my original comment vis-a-vis Stastny and the benefit of hindsight; I believe you are most definitely "catcalling from the cheap seats now" with the benefit of hindsight with regards to the team's performance the following two seasons as even more reason to trade Stastny then. Why couldn't the 2013-14 season be a springboard for the Avs to be a consistent playoff team? (Now, we know the following 2 seasons have shown that they still have work to do)

I believe the mindset of "let's trade every pending UFA player because we don't know if they'll re-sign with us" is a recipe to forever be in a cycle of building.

Now, I feel I've more than exhausted my stance.

 

[henchman21]

I really don't think there is an absolute of trading or not trading UFAs. Sometimes it is a good idea, sometimes it isn't. IMO the Stastny situation was one where you don't trade him (the only way I would have would have been for a top 4 LD swap). Situations where you won't get much isn't worth it most of the time. Players at the end of their careers deserve respect (the Sakic, Foote, and Hejduk types), whatever they want is what they should get. What Yzerman did with Stamkos was very smart. There are certainly times where not trading is the way to go. There are times where trading is the way to go... ROR, Ladd, Bishop (this season), etc. I don't think there can or even should be a steadfast rule.

 

[RockLobster]

I really don't think there is an absolute of trading or not trading UFAs. Sometimes it is a good idea, sometimes it isn't. IMO the Stastny situation was one where you don't trade him (the only way I would have would have been for a top 4 LD swap). Situations where you won't get much isn't worth it most of the time. Players at the end of their careers deserve respect (the Sakic, Foote, and Hejduk types), whatever they want is what they should get. What Yzerman did with Stamkos was very smart. There are certainly times where not trading is the way to go. There are times where trading is the way to go... ROR, Ladd, Bishop (this season), etc. I don't think there can or even should be a steadfast rule.

Which is exactly what I've been saying--it's about finding a balance.

 

[The Kingslayer]

I genuinely wish I had gotten to watch Sakic, Forsberg, Foote, Blake and Roy in their prime together. I actively started watching hockey at the end when that was all but over and most of them weren't even on the team anymore. When looking back on it, I've actually only gotten to be a fan of the team through 4 playoff rounds, disappointingly.

Yah I was able to watch all those guys in their prime. What a privilege. Peter Forsberg is a better hockey player than Sidney Crosby. I dont care what the numbers will say I watched them both. Sid is faster and has a better shot but thats about the only thing hes better than Pete at.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Which is exactly what I've been saying--it's about finding a balance.

I agree balance is generally the key to success in anything. One would argue the Avs have leaned way too much toward buying because they haven't done much selling to begin with over their tenure. They didn't sell much when they were crashing down or when beginning the rebuild. I wouldn't clutch the assets so tight if it was more a two way street.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Yah I was able to watch all those guys in their prime. What a privilege. Peter Forsberg is a better hockey player than Sidney Crosby. I dont care what the numbers will say I watched them both. Sid is faster and has a better shot but thats about the only thing hes better than Pete at.

The stars of the late 90's are better than today's. The product on ice was better too. Most will disagree but it was IMO.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Yah I was able to watch all those guys in their prime. What a privilege. Peter Forsberg is a better hockey player than Sidney Crosby. I dont care what the numbers will say I watched them both. Sid is faster and has a better shot but thats about the only thing hes better than Pete at.

I would go so far as saying that Peter Forsberg had the best combination of will and skill that I ever saw one player possess. And that includes watching Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull in their primes and all of the greats since then.

Too bad for Peter, actually too bad for the hockey world, his body couldn't handle the abuse anymore.