Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part X

[twostroke27]

I find it funny that we win two games and to some people it means we don't have to trade Duchene now...whereas I believe that should absolutely still be the plan.

Both sides seem to know the partnership is going to end, whether it's now or in 2 years when his contract is up. Sakic needs to find his ****ing balls and make the trade with one of the teams he has lined up right now (and he has several).

The Avalanche have largely wasted the majority of Duchene's "offensive prime", and I think they need to do exactly what he said to LeBrun a while back--reboot. They need to start over. This team is MacKinnon's team, they're only going to go as far as he takes them, and they need to be building around him, not Duchene.

I've never agreed with trading duchene personally but I can't completely disagree with what you're saying.

That being said, it HAS to be a very good trade. The avs need quality players coming back who can't miss. Anything less that that and I'd rather keep duchene.

 

[Foppberg]

I've never agreed with trading duchene personally but I can't completely disagree with what you're saying.

That being said, it HAS to be a very good trade. The avs need quality players coming back who can't miss. Anything less that that and I'd rather keep duchene.

I agree, but I think mentally he's already half way off this team. I really think it's best that both parties move on from each other.

 

[LakeLivin]

Am I a homer if I'd pick Rantanen over Aho? Had a discussion with a friend of mine a few days ago.

Like 7 less points on a team that can't score for ****. 5 inches and 25 pounds on him. Equal skill imo. Rantanen is more heady. Has more defensive potential as well.

I don't think any gm would trade Mikko for Aho honestly

When phrased like that you make it sound like an super obvious choice. I don't know, I've been pretty amazed with Aho this season. But like I said, I'd pick Mikko over him.

First off, I think any franchise would be thrilled to have either of them going forward.

But I don't think the answer is a no-brainer by any means. Consider that Aho is still only 19yo, a year younger than Mikko. Aho is 172lb, 19yo, and had never played a season on the small ice before. Yet he's on pace for a 25 goal, 49 pt season, and that's with an understandably slow start; it wasn't until 25 games in or so that Aho started to produce. And while the Canes aren't as anemic as the AVs, we're not exactly an offensive juggernaut, either. Or, compare their stats when they played together on Finland's 2015-16 WJC and WC teams; the younger Aho was much more productive on both, right up there with both Laine and Puljujarvi. The kid is going to be a very special player.

One's perspective may be influenced as much by how highly you value size as by which team you're a fan of. I've argued long and hard on our board that the NHL was generally overvaluing size even after the game changed to more emphasize speed and skill. Remember all those who'd have passed on Marner as the #4 pick because of his size? Or wonder why Aho slipped to the number 35 pick overall? I think the size bias is starting to even out, but that it's still there to a lesser extent. Don't get me wrong, all else being equal, bigger is better, but it's not as important compared to other factors as it used to be.

 

[JoemAvs]

Lindholm had already established himself as the Ducks clear #1 (on a playoff team) and got only 5.25M x 6 for his RFA years.

Klingberg had 40 points in 65 games and got a 7x 4.25M deal out of it....

What the hell has Zads done to deserve more than that?

I would also love to lock him up rigth now but 7x 3.5-4M is the absolute Max I would be willing to give him. And even that is way too generous right now and is basically paying him for his potential...

He simply hasn't shown close to enough to deserve more than that.

The hype is out of control...

 

[LakeLivin]

. . .
But if Carolina does not want to make a deal and all the other (better) options are unavailable as well, the offer is not terrible if it is the 2018 1st we are talking about.
...

I got a chuckle when I read this because I saw almost the exact same sentence on the Canes board except it said "But if Colorado doesn't want to make a deal . . ."

 

[UncleRisto]

Or, compare their stats when they played together on Finland's 2015-16 WJC and WC teams; the younger Aho was much more productive on both, right up there with both Laine and Puljujarvi.

Well this part certainly holds little to no value.

 

[Avs44]

I pushed hard to lock MacKinnon up long term this past-offseason, and I'm delighted they did, but Zadorov is someone I would bridge. He's a really good canidate for a deal like that.

 

[mapletreemarty]

I'd rather a shorter term, 3-4 year one. I don't believe in giving young guys a huge contract instantly.

This would be like a Josi type of deal, and if he turns into that type of defensemen that hits like a freight train, than I say sign him up.

It's amazing what he's been able to do and how he's been able to develop in amongst this steaming pile of crap.

 

[Foppberg]

This would be like a Josi type of deal, and if he turns into that type of defensemen that hits like a freight train, than I say sign him up.

It's amazing what he's been able to do and how he's been able to develop in amongst this steaming pile of crap.

I dunno, I think some players you can't give instant huge contracts. I'm not saying that Z isn't driven, but he's very raw and I'd rather give him a shorter term one vs 6 or 7 years. Just a gut feeling.

 

[Murzu]

First off, I think any franchise would be thrilled to have either of them going forward.

But I don't think the answer is a no-brainer by any means. Consider that Aho is still only 19yo, a year younger than Mikko. Aho is 172lb, 19yo, and had never played a season on the small ice before. Yet he's on pace for a 25 goal, 49 pt season, and that's with an understandably slow start; it wasn't until 25 games in or so that Aho started to produce. And while the Canes aren't as anemic as the AVs, we're not exactly an offensive juggernaut, either. Or, compare their stats when they played together on Finland's 2015-16 WJC and WC teams; the younger Aho was much more productive on both, right up there with both Laine and Puljujarvi. The kid is going to be a very special player.

One's perspective may be influenced as much by how highly you value size as by which team you're a fan of. I've argued long and hard on our board that the NHL was generally overvaluing size even after the game changed to more emphasize speed and skill. Remember all those who'd have passed on Marner as the #4 pick because of his size? Or wonder why Aho slipped to the number 35 pick overall? I think the size bias is starting to even out, but that it's still there to a lesser extent. Don't get me wrong, all else being equal, bigger is better, but it's not as important compared to other factors as it used to be.

That trio was insane. Aho benefited from playing with those two, obviously they benefited playing with Aho also - great situation for all three of them. I wouldn't look Rantanens WJC production at all. He came from AHL straight into the junior games with jet lag and different rink size, was injured and didn't have that kind of teammates. That being said, Aho played a clearly better tourney than Rantanen. Glad that Ranta stepped up when asked, played good semifinal and great final.

 

[Murzu]

And regarding Z - I would love to see him locked up as we could use a steal of a contract or two in our contract palette. I mean, Dutchy, Landeskog, Barrie, EJ, MacKinnon Varly.. all decent to very good contracts, but none look gives you a feel that "this guy is easily worth million or two more per year".

Risks are risks for a reason. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they don't. I'd love that 7x3.85 for 27M deal I proposed earlier today.

I would not do anything long term that starts with 5 tho. If that is the case, just bridge him and if he plays well, do a long term deal with 5-5.5M per.

 

[henchman21]

I probably wouldn't do anything that starts with a 4 for Z. The payoff just isn't that great compared to the risk. If Z explodes over a bridge deal, the Avs are looking at a mid 5s contract. If he develops as expected, high 4s/low 5s will be his next contract. Future savings of $1m per season just isn't worth the risk of a 6-7-8 year deal. Not to mention, a bridge could allow for 2 extra years of team control taking him all the way through his prime years.

 

[JoemAvs]

I got a chuckle when I read this because I saw almost the exact same sentence on the Canes board except it said "But if Colorado doesn't want to make a deal . . ."

Well Duchene is obviously on the block and Hanifin is probably the best centerpiece the Avs can hope for that is somewhat realistically available in a trade for Duchene.

Also I believe that trading Hanifin from a Canes POV makes more sense than trading one of Slavin (never gonna happen), Faulk or Pesce right now.

So I don't really see that the holdup would be on Colorados side on this one unless Sakic is unreasonable and asks for a huge +.

But given the lack of better options he has (atleast I don't see any personally), I would assume the deal would be done already if Carolina would be game for some sort of Hanifin for Duchene swap. They are probably at best offering Fleury/Bean ++ and that is simply not a deal the Avs will make...



4 M is basically the limit of what I would be willing to give him for maxterm. I mean Gudas gets 3.35M and Zads is probably already better than him. Hard hitting giants that can skate and defend a bit will always be a valued commodity so I wouldn't be too worried about getting stuck with that contract. But Z is not worth more than 4 right now. And only if we get max term out of it...

 

[Bender]

I find it funny that we win two games and to some people it means we don't have to trade Duchene now...whereas I believe that should absolutely still be the plan.

Both sides seem to know the partnership is going to end, whether it's now or in 2 years when his contract is up. Sakic needs to find his ****ing balls and make the trade with one of the teams he has lined up right now (and he has several).

The Avalanche have largely wasted the majority of Duchene's "offensive prime", and I think they need to do exactly what he said to LeBrun a while back--reboot. They need to start over. This team is MacKinnon's team, they're only going to go as far as he takes them, and they need to be building around him, not Duchene.

I should have specified. I think Duchene is getting traded but I don't necessarily think it's going to happen by the trade deadline unless the offer is too good to turn down. I just think there are many variables that will be set by the time the draft rolls around (we'll know what # we are drafting + more teams possibly interested that can't make a deal right now) and unless someone blows Sakic's socks off, I could see him holding on to Duchene. (same thing he did with ROR)

As far as my other comment as it pertains to re-assessing your roster with the 21 games remaining after the Trade Deadline, it's more about the eventual return you'd get for Duchene rather than making a call on whether to move him or not. (For example, if so and so perform well and show that they can handle a certain role at the NHL level, then perhaps you don't ask for that kind of piece and go a different way)

I probably wouldn't do anything that starts with a 4 for Z. The payoff just isn't that great compared to the risk. If Z explodes over a bridge deal, the Avs are looking at a mid 5s contract. If he develops as expected, high 4s/low 5s will be his next contract. Future savings of $1m per season just isn't worth the risk of a 6-7-8 year deal. Not to mention, a bridge could allow for 2 extra years of team control taking him all the way through his prime years.

Agreed. Seems like a 2 or 3 year deal at $3.5M is the likely path with Z.

 

[LakeLivin]

Well Duchene is obviously on the block and Hanifin is probably the best centerpiece the Avs can hope for that is somewhat realistically available in a trade for Duchene.

Also I believe that trading Hanifin from a Canes POV makes more sense than trading one of Slavin (never gonna happen), Faulk or Pesce right now.

So I don't really see that the holdup would be on Colorados side on this one unless Sakic is unreasonable and asks for a huge +.

But given the lack of better options he has (atleast I don't see any personally), I would assume the deal would be done already if Carolina would be game for some sort of Hanifin for Duchene swap. They are probably at best offering Fleury/Bean ++ and that is simply not a deal the Avs will make...
...

I agree that a Duchene - Hanifin (+s) deal makes a lot of sense for both sides. And while I know there are members on our board who wouldn't offer Hanifin, I've got to believe that Ron Francis recognizes Duchene's value and knows that he's got to give to get. Rather than Francis not considering trading Hanifin, it seems more likely to me that Sakic is still in his "high starting price" stage of shopping Duchene. And why not at this stage? Why would Sakic drop that tactic before he sees if he can get some other team to bite, even if Francis won't? But it's clear from his time as GM so far that Francis won't get into a bidding war for any player.

I don't see much pressure for Sakic to deal right now. A little bit for Francis, as presumably the earlier we get Duchene the more he'd help our drive for a playoff spot. As we approach the trade deadline, I see the incentive to get a deal done increasing for both sides. For the Canes, to help with our chances to make the playoff drive. For the Avs, because the former should entice Francis to make a bit more generous offer. Once the trade deadline passes (or if the Canes fall out of the hunt), seems like there's less incentive for the Canes to deal and therefore presumably a bit less that the Canes would be willing to offer.

That's my take, anyways.

 

[the_fan]

I find it funny that we win two games and to some people it means we don't have to trade Duchene now...whereas I believe that should absolutely still be the plan.

Both sides seem to know the partnership is going to end, whether it's now or in 2 years when his contract is up. Sakic needs to find his ****ing balls and make the trade with one of the teams he has lined up right now (and he has several).

The Avalanche have largely wasted the majority of Duchene's "offensive prime", and I think they need to do exactly what he said to LeBrun a while back--reboot. They need to start over. This team is MacKinnon's team, they're only going to go as far as he takes them, and they need to be building around him, not Duchene.

Yeah, if they're gonna trade Duchene they need to trade him now or they'll find themselves in a panic trade situation, unless part of their plan is to see if they can get what they want for Duchene now, if not definitely resign him.

If this team loses Duchene to free agency or makes a panic trade for less than what teams are offering them right now, we are looking at another major set back.

 

[JoemAvs]

I agree that a Duchene - Hanifin (+s) deal makes a lot of sense for both sides. And while I know there are members on our board who wouldn't offer Hanifin, I've got to believe that Ron Francis recognizes Duchene's value and knows that he's got to give to get. Rather than Francis not considering trading Hanifin, it seems more likely to me that Sakic is still in his "high starting price" stage of shopping Duchene. And why not at this stage? Why would Sakic drop that tactic before he sees if he can get some other team to bite, even if Francis won't? But it's clear from his time as GM so far that Francis won't get into a bidding war for any player.

I don't see much pressure for Sakic to deal right now. A little bit for Francis, as presumably the earlier we get Duchene the more he'd help our drive for a playoff spot. As we approach the trade deadline, I see the incentive to get a deal done increasing for both sides. For the Canes, to help with our chances to make the playoff drive. For the Avs, because the former should entice Francis to make a bit more generous offer. Once the trade deadline passes (or if the Canes fall out of the hunt), seems like there's less incentive for the Canes to deal and therefore presumably a bit less that the Canes would be willing to offer.

That's my take, anyways.

Sounds reasonable.

Hanifin hasn't been great lately so I could absolutely see Sakic wanting some kind of + that Francis is not yet willing to offer.

In the end it would be a gamble both ways. Montreal seems desperate right now, sounds like Poile is up to some shenanigans (he was totally lying about not having talked to Sakic about Duchene the same way he was bsing everyone when it came to RyJo/Jones and Subban/Weber) and a few other teams are sniffing around as well. So Francis could miss out if he does not actively engage in talks.

The other way around Sakic probably won't find a better centerpiece than Hanifin and the longer he waits the clearer the playoff picture will get. And Duchene won't look close to as appealing to Francis if the Canes are out of the race in 2-3 weeks.

Also there is always the chance that Tim Murray puts his balls on the table and offers Reinhart for Hanifin (+).
That deal could make a lot of sense for all parties involved if Murray is convinced that Hanifin will reach his potential.

That absolutely could happen if you are looking at Buffalos D woes and if they will be out of it because of it 2-3 weeks from now..

At this point I would be thrilled about some deal around Duchene for Hanifin. His play recently is a bit concerning but I believe in him and if it makes Francis having to give up a little extra, I am all for it and hope it gets done soon...

 

[cgf]

A lot better draft I assume.

Better chance that the habs pick is higher too. Cause Rads may leave or someone important could go down early like price did last year.

 

[Avs_19]

A bridge deal for Zadorov makes most sense to me. Maybe something like 2 yrs, $5M.

 

[dahrougem2]

If the Oilers want Grigorenko or one of our UFA vets like Iginla/Mitchell/Bourque/Tyutin/etc for Davidson, sure make that deal.

Don't make that deal if they want a draft pick or prospect (unless the prospect is someone not in the Avs' plans like Siemens).

Good 3rd pairing defensemen who can step up and play top-4 minutes if need-be but not someone you want consistently there. Needs to find a way to stay healthy, too.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

I don't think we need to be shopping for 3rd pairing D right now...

 

[AvsCOL]

A bridge deal for Zadorov makes most sense to me. Maybe something like 2 yrs, $5M.

That's fair. Trouba got 2 years, $6m and was much more proven.




But then again, maybe they believe he's worth the risk of signing a long term contract. Payed off for the Dallas Stars in Klingberg.

 

[landy92mack29]

Better chance that the habs pick is higher too. Cause Rads may leave or someone important could go down early like price did last year.

I'd prefer a 2018 as well but mainly because it's looking like a much better D draft and could be used to move up from our probable top 10 pick to get the guy we need instead of missing out like in the past

 

[landy92mack29]

A bridge deal for Zadorov makes most sense to me. Maybe something like 2 yrs, $5M.

I doubt he even gets that. I expect a 2x2

 

[AvsCOL]

I'd prefer a 2018 as well but mainly because it's looking like a much better D draft and could be used to move up from our probable top 10 pick to get the guy we need instead of missing out like in the past

I'd argue that any pick in the top-10 to 15 is going to net you a really good player. Shaping up to be one of the best drafts in recent memory.

Load up on 2018 1sts.