Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part V

[dahrougem2]

Panarin is really interesting to me. He is going to be a RFA and probably asking 4.5-6 mil per year and there is no way CHI can afford him. Could be a Terovinan situation

Chicago will find a way to afford him

 

[Don Corleone]

Don't agree there. If they don't get a D back in a core trade every casual fan will riot. The local media keeps saying things like trade the draft pick this year to get a #1 D. That's the expectation that they can go out and get one of those guys once they decide to make a move. They will not make a core trade and just get picks and prospects back.

Maybe they will or maybe they won't. However, making decisions because some fans or members of the media want that is an incredibly stupid logic to do something. The Avs need to rebuild and that means trading core pieces and sucking for a few years. In fact if they came out next year and said that they are committed to a proper rebuild for the first time in Avalanche history and actually meant it. I would guarantee that most people that have any idea of the state that the Avs are in would cheer and feel great about it.

 

[Yetti090]

He goes to the Devils on 1 July.

That could be a strong possibility.

 

[JoemAvs]

Maybe they will or maybe they won't. However, making decisions because some fans or members of the media want that is an incredibly stupid logic to do something. The Avs need to rebuild and that means trading core pieces and sucking for a few years. In fact if they came out next year and said that they are committed to a proper rebuild for the first time in Avalanche history and actually meant it. I would guarantee that most people that have any idea of the state that the Avs are in would cheer and feel great about it.

Since when?

When have teams starting a rebuild shipped off their sub-25 year old talent?

 

[Yetti090]

Chicago will find a way to afford him

I just don't see where that cap space comes from. Right now they have 400k in space and next year (with no moves) they would have 12mil in space with only 14 roster guys signed and 9-10 prospects signed

 

[xbestboybandever]

Chicago will find a way to afford him

How many of you have seen Chicago play in person? It's really an amazing thing.

If you watch them during the pre game warm up, you can see it. This championship mentality. They show up ready to play every night. Kane and Panarin will stay on the ice and practice cross ice passing drills and they are often the last players off the ice. The only other, Duncan Keith. Even in watching the interview on NHL network last night with Jagr, that is the vet this team is missing. A guy that shows the kids how to practice, how to train, how to win and how to lose. I think that Florida is a crazy talented team, but they didn't turn that corner last season until they had Jagr in that locker room.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Maybe they will or maybe they won't. However, making decisions because some fans or members of the media want that is an incredibly stupid logic to do something. The Avs need to rebuild and that means trading core pieces and sucking for a few years. In fact if they came out next year and said that they are committed to a proper rebuild for the first time in Avalanche history and actually meant it. I would guarantee that most people that have any idea of the state that the Avs are in would cheer and feel great about it.

The Avs will never feed into those optics IMO

 

[dahrougem2]

I just don't see where that cap space comes from. Right now they have 400k in space and next year (with no moves) they would have 12mil in space with only 14 roster guys signed and 9-10 prospects signed

When they need to make room, they get the job done. If they deem a player expendable, they move him.

Panarin is not expendable. They will find a way to retain him.

 

[xbestboybandever]

Since when?

When have teams starting a rebuild shipped off their sub-25 year old talent?

Edmonton, this past offseason, Taylor Hall and Nail Yakupov.

 

[xbestboybandever]

When they need to make room, they get the job done. If they deem a player expendable, they move him.

Panarin is not expendable. They will find a way to retain him.

They will find a way to move Crawford or Kruger.

 

[Don Corleone]

The Avs will never feed into those optics IMO

That is my fear. It also means that we as fans can kiss goodbye to any possibility of witnessing an Avalanche cup victory in the next decade.

 

[dahrougem2]

Edmonton, this past offseason, Taylor Hall and Nail Yakupov.

Edmonton was not starting a rebuild moving those pieces. They were finishing one.

The trades were also made from a point of desperation (Hall) and indifference (Yakupov)

 

[ABasin]

Do I think that move would help us today? I just find it comical.

Comical. A perfect adjective. Yes, you know how I felt last March when the Avs traded for Boedker.

The FO made a move to try and solidify an area of weakness to get us over the hump and into the playoffs,

Well, is it "brought us a Stanley Cup", or "get over the hump into the playoffs"? They are two very, veryveryveryveryveryvery different things.

and now, a player that was never brought up by any of you as being a defender of the future for this team is "the second coming of Rob Blake." And then, in the same breath, can sit there and say the team can not identify talent, when we drafted the guy that everyone is so upset about.

I never said the team cannot identify talent. That's another poster you're thinking of.

I will offer that I believe the team's drafting was not good at all for a number of years, and I just don't believe they're developing players properly. I applaud the "new" Sakic mantra of leaving guys in the AHL for a year or two. I feel this is going to pay off for the organization, though it's going to take a couple of years for us to see it.

Number 2, comment away on whatever topics you see fit; however, you're incessant *****ing and moaning will not undo the trade or the Jost pick or the Iginla signing or bring back ROR or make Stastny take less money or make Conner Bleakley stop eating donuts or bless Duncan Siemans with Karlsson like offensive skill or turn EJ into Shea Weber. Bringing up the same nonsense is tiresome. I would love to just talk hockey, but the only thing that constantly happens is the complaining about the FO, not only that, but this entire boards gross over valuation of prospects and picks is a joke. How many players are drafted every season? Now, how many of those players play a full season at the NHL level? Let's discuss Bigras solid season, and ways that we would like to see him grow as a player. I liked the Jost pick just fine, but if Winnipeg called and said Trouba for Jost, I would make that deal all day every day. Why? Because there is no promise that Jost will pan out. So people writing him in as a savior for next season and claiming he is untouchable while being okay with shipping out Duchene is hypocritical and counter productive. We would be lucky if Jost became a player like Duchene. Not saying he can't, but to say he is the "second coming of Johnathan Toews," come on.

With the exception of the tiresome part (and the incorrect use of the word "you're"), I agree with that entire paragraph. Please don't even get me started on how much we as a group overrate our prospects.

People have legitimate concerns about the organization and the decisions they've made. Why is that not a legitimate discussion topic? Or a repeatable one? Again, if certain topics frustrate or don't interest you, move on to a topic that does. In the OT thread, guys talk about Xbox stuff all of the time. I have zero interest. I don't castigate them for it. I simply ignore those and engage in topics that I do care about.

Number 3, how well did tanking work for Edmonton? They got lucky and landed McDavid after how many failed top-5 first round picks?

Well, tanking is ugly business, yes. But sometimes it's necessary. Unfortunately for us Avs fans, we've already been through a few years of Sacco tank, and it didn't work. It might be necessary again.

And while I agree with your Edmonton analogy in general, don't forget that McDavid is playing on a roster with 6 of those 1st round picks around him, and a 7th player they got in a trade for one of those 1sts. So in the end, it did/will work.

Number 4, I pay good money for the product on the ice, as a fan, we deserve to have a competitive team on the ice every night. This FO has done a lot to try and get this team in to the post season, which is the ultimate goal, not compiling enough prospects to have some list and fanboy drool all over.

I don't disagree with the point of a competitive team, however the team is right now in a place where looking for patchwork short-term solutions only puts them farther back in subsequent seasons. The Boedker trade was an example of that, and potentially doing it again is another example. They've been doing this for years, it didn't work, it won't likely work in the near future, so they need to stop doing it and focus on more longer term solutions. When you have a team with some championship-caliber talent and a solid prospect pool, you can put forth some of these short-term solutions and make it work for a number of years (i.e. Chicago, Washington, St. Louis, etc). When a team gets as low as this Colorado team is (or the 2008 version was), patchwork solutions won't work anymore. Otherwise, they'll never get to that 'perennial competitive' team we all want.

TV, Joem, Freudian, myself and a number of others are putting forth the point that this team (and its prospect pool) are not as good and deep as many people believe, and that short-term solutions are not the answer. We have been saying this for years, and if I may be completely blunt, we have been proven correct. It's time to do it differently. It's been time for awhile now.

Number 5, there has been no rebuttal to any of my points. It is the same recycled insults with the same recycled points.

I have asked multiple times,

You are the GM, fix this team. Let's see what you do.

I appreciate the question. I'll shoot out some ideas later. Have to wrap up some work stuff.

 

[xbestboybandever]

Edmonton was not starting a rebuild moving those pieces. They were finishing one.

The trades were also made from a point of desperation (Hall) and indifference (Yakupov)

We can agree to disagree on the rebuild. They just had it accelerated by landing McDavid.

 

[dahrougem2]

We can agree to disagree on the rebuild. They just had it accelerated by landing McDavid.

Accelerated, sure. But the rebuild was finishing, not starting.

Nobody starts a rebuild by trading sub-25 talent.

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

We can agree to disagree on the rebuild. They just had it accelerated by landing McDavid.

McDavid is that type of player, case in point the Erie Otters. It's a bit eerie how similar his career has been in the OHL to the NHL so far. First season in each league the team he was on ended with a high pick but he had a pretty good rookie year. Next season he turns it up a notch and went into the playoffs with Erie. Edmonton has a chance at making it into the playoffs this year as well.

 

[xbestboybandever]

Comical. A perfect adjective. Yes, you know how I felt last March when the Avs traded for Boedker.



Well, is it "brought us a Stanley Cup", or "get over the hump into the playoffs"? They are two very, veryveryveryveryveryvery different things.



I never said the team cannot identify talent. That's another poster you're thinking of.

I will offer that I believe the team's drafting was not good at all for a number of years, and I just don't believe they're developing players properly. I applaud the "new" Sakic mantra of leaving guys in the AHL for a year or two. I feel this is going to pay off for the organization, though it's going to take a couple of years for us to see it.



With the exception of the tiresome part (and the incorrect use of the word "you're"), I agree with that entire paragraph. Please don't even get me started on how much we as a group overrate our prospects.

People have legitimate concerns about the organization and the decisions they've made. Why is that not a legitimate discussion topic? Or a repeatable one? Again, if certain topics frustrate or don't interest you, move on to a topic that does. In the OT thread, guys talk about Xbox stuff all of the time. I have zero interest. I don't castigate them for it. I simply ignore those and engage in topics that I do care about.



Well, tanking is ugly business, yes. But sometimes it's necessary. Unfortunately for us Avs fans, we've already been through a few years of Sacco tank, and it didn't work. It might be necessary again.

And while I agree with your Edmonton analogy in general, don't forget that McDavid is playing on a roster with 6 of those 1st round picks around him, and a 7th player they got in a trade for one of those 1sts. So in the end, it did/will work.



I don't disagree with the point of a competitive team, however the team is right now in a place where looking for patchwork short-term solutions only puts them farther back in subsequent seasons. The Boedker trade was an example of that, and potentially doing it again is another example. They've been doing this for years, it didn't work, it won't likely work in the near future, so they need to stop doing it and focus on more longer term solutions. When you have a team with some championship-caliber talent and a solid prospect pool, you can put forth some of these short-term solutions and make it work for a number of years (i.e. Chicago, Washington, St. Louis, etc). When a team gets as low as this Colorado team is (or the 2008 version was), patchwork solutions won't work anymore. Otherwise, they'll never get to that 'perennial competitive' team we all want.

TV, Joem, Freudian, myself and a number of others are putting forth the point that this team (and its prospect pool) are not as good and deep as many people believe, and that short-term solutions are not the answer. We have been saying this for years, and if I may be completely blunt, we have been proven correct. It's time to do it differently. It's been time for awhile now.



I appreciate the question. I'll shoot out some ideas later. Have to wrap up some work stuff.

To say that you have been proven correct is silly. Did you predict the team winning the division in 2013? No? How about how the team was in full rebuild mode, and then all of sudden came out of nowhere and possibly changed the FO's line of thought as to how far along we were in the rebuild. Out of all of the prospects we have traded away, how many are full time NHLer's?

As far as Edmonton goes, until McDavid got there, how did those 6 1st rounds perform? They have constantly been on the chopping block, and some still are. So to say that their rebuild worked has still yet to be seen, but it was vastly expedited by the arrival of McDavid.

I don't disagree with you in that it is time to do things differently, but going in to full tank mode and calling for a rebuild is nuts. The team has pieces, we just have some huge holes that need to be plugged.

Find a d-man that can move the puck (no Tyson Barrie is not what we need).
Find a shut down d-man that teams don't like going in to the corner with.
Find a trigger man that is not afraid to fire 50 shots a game.
Find a vet that can teach our young players how to play in the NHL.
Find a coach that inspires this team.

 

[Don Corleone]

Nobody starts a rebuild by trading sub-25 talent.

If that "talent" is someone like Barrie then I would have no objections.

 

[dahrougem2]

If that "talent" is someone like Barrie then I would have no objections.

You don't start a rebuild by looking to move that talent first.

You look to sell off any vets/expiring contracts you may have. After that, you can look to shake it up with the youth but not before exploring other options to gut the team of dead weight first.

 

[xbestboybandever]

ABasin: It's astounding how you can shape the narrative to fit your story. Give me an example as to when this team bought at the deadline when we were miles out of a playoff spot? Better yet, can you name the last time we traded a 1st round draft pick at the deadline?

 

[Don Corleone]

You don't start a rebuild by looking to move that talent first.

You look to sell off any vets/expiring contracts you may have. After that, you can look to shake it up with the youth but not before exploring other options to gut the team of dead weight first.

Of course throw the crap out first. However, I just think that some of the Avs better players are really not that great and if someone is willing to pay a good price for them then do it.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Unfortunately there probably has to be some change at this point to make it clear that it is not the same team.

Did you listen to BSN's latest pod cast? AJ thinks there will be a youth movement soon, and mentioned Montreal actually having interest in FB.

It's crazy to think teams could actually be interested in him, but encouraging if true.

 

[JLo217]

As much of a fan of Mack everyone is, he still hasn't played great other than his rookie year, and spurts here and there.

Seems crazy but I think the Value they could get for Mack would be huge, and he might be the first player I look at trading simply based on his value as a player he'll hold league wide. I think you hold onto Duchene going forward still especially if they can land Patrick in the draft. I know this also won't be popular but I think Landeskog has a decent shot of being moved. And I wouldn't be against it. I think those two players net you far more value in trades to actually fill out this roster from the back end going forward.

Mack and Duchene are redundant. Duchene is and will be the better player overall going forward it appears. It sucks to deplete an already not scoring offense, but I think the pieces are gettable if we actually had a good log jam on D instead of AHL stop gaps. I'd still be all for trading Varly before the TDL too for picks and giving Martin/Picks the reigns to ride it out. Varly is made of glass at this point.

I hope they go youth soon and start burying players in the minors. Once Bigras is healthy I hope they send Gelinas down, maybe give Lindholm some time up. Since the season is lost I hope to see Greer, Compher and Bigras up soon!

Once EJ is healthy wouldn't mind seeing this soon...

Zads/Bigras - EJ
Zads/Bigras - Barrie
Weirdo - Tyutin

 

[xbestboybandever]

As much of a fan of Mack everyone is, he still hasn't played great other than his rookie year, and spurts here and there.

Seems crazy but I think the Value they could get for Mack would be huge, and he might be the first player I look at trading simply based on his value as a player he'll hold league wide. I think you hold onto Duchene going forward still especially if they can land Patrick in the draft. I know this also won't be popular but I think Landeskog has a decent shot of being moved. And I wouldn't be against it. I think those two players net you far more value in trades to actually fill out this roster from the back end going forward.

Mack and Duchene are redundant. Duchene is and will be the better player overall going forward it appears. It sucks to deplete an already not scoring offense, but I think the pieces are gettable if we actually had a good log jam on D instead of AHL stop gaps. I'd still be all for trading Varly before the TDL too for picks and giving Martin/Picks the reigns to ride it out. Varly is made of glass at this point.

I hope they go youth soon and start burying players in the minors. Once Bigras is healthy I hope they send Gelinas down, maybe give Lindholm some time up. Since the season is lost I hope to see Greer, Compher and Bigras up soon!

Once EJ is healthy wouldn't mind seeing this soon...

Zads/Bigras - EJ
Zads/Bigras - Barrie
Weirdo - Tyutin

Couldn't agree more. I think that both of those players would net us NHL players, not a futures package, which is what this team needs more than picks and prospects.

 

[Mighty Makar]

I wish Dahlin was draft eligible this June