Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part IV

[henchman21]

Boedker had a cup of coffee with the avs and so has Ranta. Iggy has played the majority of his time with Duchene and has been Matt has been dragging his sorry ass for 3 years. Grigs too.

Duchene has played with Mack/Landy at times but it's not a myth that he's played long stretches with poor excuses for NHLers.

Duchene has played with those two, but he has had significant time with better players. Rants is his most common linemate this year. MacK was last year.

Last season:

This season:

It is when you get down to his 2nd/3rd most common linemates what the quality is lacking... but that happens with MacK too. MacK' 2nd most common linemate this season is Bourque. Last season it was Tangs. Landy is 3rd in both seasons.

 

[detrude]

They wouldn't have a competent goalie, but the point is that that move made them take a short-cut instead of taking the natural course, it also made the team rely on him more than they should. Had they stayed the course and signed some stop gap the going would be tougher than with Varly backing the team, but it would be better in the end IMHO. I realize some might disagree.

Why do so many people think it's a shortcut when you trade for a core player instead of drafting them all? Our core at the time was 100% offense, there was nobody in the pipe with #1g (or even #1d) upside. The Varly and EJ trades were absolutely necessary to bring in pieces we needed, and at ages/experience that was on par with the rest of our guys. The biggest problem was the amount of value we gave up in each trade, a team that's still building and growing has to find a way to save some of that value. We haven't gone anywhere with this core, but that doesn't mean the moves were shortcuts or wrong.

 

[dahrougem2]

They wouldn't have a competent goalie, but the point is that that move made them take a short-cut instead of taking the natural course, it also made the team rely on him more than they should. Had they stayed the course and signed some stop gap the going would be tougher than with Varly backing the team, but it would be better in the end IMHO. I realize some might disagree.

I wouldn't say it was a short-cut at the time. It was a team that had just drafted Matt Duchene in 2009 to be the team's future 1C, had just drafted Gabriel Landeskog a few days earlier to be the team's 1st line all around winger, had Paul Stastny signed for a few more years, and had Ryan O'Reilly coming up, too.

Yes, the defence was putrid but at the time, I can see the rationale for doing it. The young team needed a stable presence, and the management group thought Varly could provide that. Couple that with going out and acquiring Erik Johnson half-way through the season to be the team's future 1D.

Looking back on it now, maybe it was best to stay away from Varly given his groin problems and where the team is now, but that's hindsight. To be completely honest, I actually enjoyed management being aggressive. They saw a need in net and solidified it. They saw a need on the back-end and solidified it.

The questionable thing to be is that they never seemed to see the need for a better back-end aside from EJ. As if trading for him was enough for the team to take off.

 

[Balthazar]

We shouldn't make a panic move. I'd like to see how this team looks all the cap space available next season, and having Jost and Nolan Patrick.

People need to stop having Nolan Patrick in mind when they think about rebuilding. Like we said earlier in the thread, we have a whopping 17.9% chance of getting him if we finish last. That's less than 1 chance out of 5.

Realistically, we'll draft at #4.

 

[henchman21]

The problem with the EJ/Varly moves wasn't the moves for those players. It was the **** poor drafting in 2010-12. Picks and Landy are the only 2 pieces that worked, and Landy was a given (and any players reasonably in the range would have been good picks... they made the right one though). So Picks is the only selection that they actually had to do some work on getting. The rest failed. If a team can't make top 40-50 selections with reasonable accuracy, they are going to be screwed regardless.

People need to stop having Nolan Patrick in mind when they think about rebuilding. Like we said earlier in the thread, we have a whopping 17.9% chance of getting him if we finish last. That's less than 1 chance out of 5.

Realistically, we'll draft at #4.

It isn't 100% that Patrick goes #1 either. Hischier is making a strong case.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Why do so many people think it's a shortcut when you trade for a core player instead of drafting them all? Our core at the time was 100% offense, there was nobody in the pipe with #1g (or even #1d) upside. The Varly and EJ trades were absolutely necessary to bring in pieces we needed, and at ages/experience that was on par with the rest of our guys. The biggest problem was the amount of value we gave up in each trade, a team that's still building and growing has to find a way to save some of that value. We haven't gone anywhere with this core, but that doesn't mean the moves were shortcuts or wrong.

Because you pay a premium for it, you just said it giving up value. When the org has built up their own asset base then it makes more sense to make moves like that. You are paying the other team for the development time and for the lessened risk at that point. Also it's a player a team has to be willing to part with for whatever reason. If they are 100% thrilled with their development track, future, etc they aren't available.

I don't have a problem with going out to get what you need but 6 drafted players on a team doesn't cut it either. They did it backwards in a sense and at now trying to backfill with their own developed talent. They should grow first and then use surplus to go get the missing pieces.

 

[detrude]

Because you pay a premium for it, you just said it giving up value. When the org has built up their own asset base then it makes more sense to make moves like that. You are paying the other team for the development time and for the lessened risk at that point.

WE gave up a premium for them, other organizations don't or haven't. There are plenty of examples of teams bringing in high end core players for less value than we gave up. I'm not going to sit here and say the option was available, but the team absolutely has to find a way to save the 1st in the Varly trade, and at least one of Shattenkirk or the 2nd in the EJ deal. We really shouldn't be gun shy because a previous management group threw caution to the wind to get the pieces they wanted, we just need to go about it smarter.

 

[AvsGuy]

Am I the only insane person who thinks that with Jost coming along so finely, we could actually keep Duchene (as we should anyways) and finally, please, for the sake of all that is holy, move MacKinnon to RW going forward? Honestly, what is wrong with this top 6?

Landeskog - Duchene - MacKinnon
whoever - Jost - Rantanen

(Switch Duchene and MacKinnon if you really want, Duchene is more than adept at RW)

 

[henchman21]

Honestly, what is wrong with this top 6?

No shutdown top 6 center. I know I get grilled for not believing in Jost for that role, but that is what I see. That top 6 would be good enough for a playoff team, but I don't think it could contend without that center. IMO If that group is to work, MacK has to become that guy.

 

[Balthazar]

Am I the only insane person who thinks that with Jost coming along so finely, we could actually keep Duchene (as we should anyways) and finally, please, for the sake of all that is holy, move MacKinnon to RW going forward? Honestly, what is wrong with this top 6?

Landeskog - Duchene - MacKinnon
whoever - Jost - Rantanen

Ok I'll bite. They tried that first line many times and it just doesn't work. Jost havent play a single pro game yet and you give him top 6 center responsibility, next to a player in development and someone who doesn't exist in the org. That's big.

So, all in all, I'll say that while it looks decent on paper there's plenty of "wrong" in that top 6 if we're trying to be competitive. If we're not trying to be competitive then we're just wasting another year of prime for Duchene.

 

[landy92mack29]

Don't worry, we have another shot at it.

someone got it

 

[dahrougem2]

Ok I'll bite. They tried that first line many times and it just doesn't work. Jost havent play a single pro game yet and you give him top 6 center responsibility, next to a player in development and someone who doesn't exist in the org. That's big.

So, all in all, I'll say that while it looks decent on paper there's plenty of "wrong" in that top 6 if we're trying to be competitive. If we're not trying to be competitive then we're just wasting another year of prime for Duchene.

Someone clearly wasn't watching last season. The only reason it can't work is if you load it up, the other 3 lines completely suck

 

[landy92mack29]

I know the Wood trade hurts for a lot of people, but it is over... time to move on. This is coming from the guy who pumped his tires from the very beginning. Be happy the scouting staff saw somebody with talent and upside in the 3rd round, and with exception of this summer, he developed in the Avs' system. Yeah, he'd be nice to have right now, but it is over.

no thanks and I'll bring him up as much as I want. I'll do the exact same thing I did to Jays fans when they traded Syndergaard as again with that trade I was one of the few who hated it from the start. Also like the Syndergaard trade I doubt I'll get over it(not saying Wood will become anywhere close to what Syndergaard has become though). When people are desperate to take defence with every high pick it'd be nice to have a future top 4 rhd in the system(Liljegren isn't the answer for the Avs anyway)

 

[tigervixxxen]

WE gave up a premium for them, other organizations don't or haven't. There are plenty of examples of teams bringing in high end core players for less value than we gave up. I'm not going to sit here and say the option was available, but the team absolutely has to find a way to save the 1st in the Varly trade, and at least one of Shattenkirk or the 2nd in the EJ deal. We really shouldn't be gun shy because a previous management group threw caution to the wind to get the pieces they wanted, we just need to go about it smarter.

That's how those deals work though. You want a blue chip prospect/young NHL player from another org then you are going to pay for it unless something has happened to completely submarine their value.

 

[henchman21]

no thanks and I'll bring him up as much as I want. I'll do the exact same thing I did to Jays fans when they traded Syndergaard as again with that trade I was one of the few who hated it from the start. Also like the Syndergaard trade I doubt I'll get over it(not saying Wood will become anywhere close to what Syndergaard has become though). When people are desperate to take defence with every high pick it'd be nice to have a future top 4 rhd in the system(Liljegren isn't the answer for the Avs anyway)

What point does it really serve in a rumors thread? We have a trade thread for discussing it. Or there is a former players thread that he gets brought up in. Wood doesn't need to be in every thread that discusses potential moves.

The Avs do have a future top 4 RD prospect in Meloche, and currently have 2 top 4 RD on the team that are both under 30.

I'm not clamoring for Liljegren personally, but I can get wanting him. Wanting a D at the top of the draft really doesn't have much to do with Wood. Wood would have to wildly exceed expectations to become a #1D. Drafting a D high is more about finding that #1 sort than it is finding a 3/4.

FTR the only D I would take high is Foote, and I don't think I'd spend a top 5 pick on him.

 

[landy92mack29]

What point does it really serve in a rumors thread? We have a trade thread for discussing it. Or there is a former players thread that he gets brought up in. Wood doesn't need to be in every thread that discusses potential moves.

The Avs do have a future top 4 RD prospect in Meloche, and currently have 2 top 4 RD on the team that are both under 30.

I'm not clamoring for Liljegren personally, but I can get wanting him. Wanting a D at the top of the draft really doesn't have much to do with Wood. Wood would have to wildly exceed expectations to become a #1D. Drafting a D high is more about finding that #1 sort than it is finding a 3/4.

FTR the only D I would take high is Foote, and I don't think I'd spend a top 5 pick on him.

I said Battalion hinting at a future Duchene trade that is getting people depressed.....you're the one who brought up Wood(I set the bait and figured someone would take it though). The only time I specifically bring up Wood is in the former Avs players thread but if someone else brings him up I'll share my thoughts depending on what they say. look at the Avs depth....they need as many potential top 9 forwards or top 4 D as possible. Just because we have Meloche shouldn't make the 2nd best rhd prospect expendable.

I agree Foote is the only D I'd take high as well but 5th at the very earliest. Probably trading down a bit would be better but risk missing out on him.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Oh come on, like everything isn't discussed here especially relating to the moves this team has made and what they need to do moving forward. I mean every single thing they've done in the past should be off limits then, no? It's not even really about flogging the Boedker move specifically (and that has been beaten to death) but about their approach to building a team and talent evaluation at this point. The reason why Wood keeps getting brought up is because of the season he's having, I'm not sure people quite get what he's doing. He's leading his team in scoring. At 20. As a defenseman. He's legitimately putting together a ROY campaign thus far. He's top 20 in AHL scoring and Tucson has played as much as 8 fewer games than the rest of the league. Y'all know how Greer went from a whatever prospect to a legitimate NHL option, that's what Wood would mean for us right now if he was still here. I think those things still matter.

 

[Bender]

There is too much deadweight to clear away within the next year. Yeah, Iggy, Tyutin, Mitchell, etc., will all be off the books next season. But who replaces them? Hopefully Greer, Bigras, and Compher. But if you start getting into shipping out Colborne, Soderberg, Beauchemin, etc., as well...who replaces them? There's nobody else in the prospect pool...so where do you look? Free agency, obviously. But there is one small problem: that is exactly where all of those guys came from in the first place. So do we just replace that deadweight with even more deadweight? My point is that there is too much garbage on this team right now to clear it all away and replace it with non-garbage. It will take this year, and next year too in my opinion, before we have a hope of clearing out all of the deadweight, because 1) nobody is going to want some of this crap, and 2) there's nothing but more crap waiting to replace it right now. It has to be a process, which will require frustrating patience.

The problem with the deadweight is that a lot of these guys were signed with term. I'm if the Avs front office, I want nothing to do with signing depth players (ie: John Mitchell or Cody McLeod) to multi-year contracts anymore. The results speak for themselves. Especially 4th line players, unless you're getting a really good faceoff guy who is really good on the PK, there's no reason to spend over $1M for a 4th liner, imo. Those contracts always tend to screw you over in the end, and you just can't wait until they expire.

I hope that they've learned their lesson. They had better results getting players on PTOs on 1 year deals like they have the past 2 years with Skille and R.Bourque than they have signing Mitchell and Comeau to 3 year contracts.

There might only be more crap that is waiting to replace the existing crap but I would hope that they would make sure they are 1 year, buriable contracts.

Say they do trade one core player, and leave the rest intact. Outside of the remaining core, and the youngsters, who really needs to stick around? They should blow that up IMO. Trading one player isn't going to solve the mental issues with this team. The problem is too deep. It needs to be uprooted more. They should overhaul as many of those non core/youngsters as they can.

That includes Colborne, Comeau, Grigo, Gelinas, Wiercioch, maybe even Soda if they have a decent replacement. Walk away from Mitchell, Tyutin, and Goloubef. Try their best to dump them somewhere and replace them all.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[henchman21]

I said Battalion hinting at a future Duchene trade that is getting people depressed.....you're the one who brought up Wood(I set the bait and figured someone would take it though). The only time I specifically bring up Wood is in the former Avs players thread but if someone else brings him up I'll share my thoughts depending on what they say. look at the Avs depth....they need as many potential top 9 forwards or top 4 D as possible. Just because we have Meloche shouldn't make the 2nd best rhd prospect expendable.

I agree Foote is the only D I'd take high as well but 5th at the very earliest. Probably trading down a bit would be better but risk missing out on him.

Don't buy for a second you were bringing up Duchene. TV was hinting at the trade in passive aggressive manner too. It has been constant here.

Boedker fit well here and the Avs took a risk. It didn't pan out, but the price paid was what rentals cost.

Oh come on, like everything isn't discussed here especially relating to the moves this team has made and what they need to do moving forward. I mean every single thing they've done in the past should be off limits then, no? It's not even really about flogging the Boedker move specifically (and that has been beaten to death) but about their approach to building a team and talent evaluation at this point. The reason why Wood keeps getting brought up is because of the season he's having, I'm not sure people quite get what he's doing. He's leading his team in scoring. At 20. As a defenseman. He's legitimately putting together a ROY campaign thus far. He's top 20 in AHL scoring and Tucson has played as much as 8 fewer games than the rest of the league. Y'all know how Greer went from a whatever prospect to a legitimate NHL option, that's what Wood would mean for us right now if he was still here. I think those things still matter.

I'm not saying it should be off limits, but that move gets flogged over and over again. The horse is nothing more than a pulp at this point. It could not be brought up ever again and people would get it. Does it really have to be the center of every other trade talk?

Wood was a legit prospect last year. It didn't just happen. I think everybody here gets how well he is doing, it gets mentioned a few times a week at least. Should people be bringing up Bleackley's struggles as proof they were right?

 

[UncleRisto]

Don't buy for a second you were bringing up Duchene.

I don't know, I read it that way.

 

[landy92mack29]

Don't buy for a second you were bringing up Duchene. TV was hinting at the trade in passive aggressive manner too. It has been constant here.

Boedker fit well here and the Avs took a risk. It didn't pan out, but the price paid was what rentals cost.



I'm not saying it should be off limits, but that move gets flogged over and over again. The horse is nothing more than a pulp at this point. It could not be brought up ever again and people would get it. Does it really have to be the center of every other trade talk?

Wood was a legit prospect last year. It didn't just happen. I think everybody here gets how well he is doing, it gets mentioned a few times a week at least. Should people be bringing up Bleackley's struggles as proof they were right?

The Avs never should've thought going for a rental was the right move in the 1st place.

for bold-sadly no some people still think the avs gave up nothing. Until Wood makes the NHL like with Syndergaard he'll be considered a mystery box by the masses. Not everyone knows everything about everything like you do.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I'm not saying it should be off limits, but that move gets flogged over and over again. The horse is nothing more than a pulp at this point. It could not be brought up ever again and people would get it. Does it really have to be the center of every other trade talk?

Wood was a legit prospect last year. It didn't just happen. I think everybody here gets how well he is doing, it gets mentioned a few times a week at least. Should people be bringing up Bleackley's struggles as proof they were right?

Like I said, its not about the trade. The reasons for it we have been over enough. And no I don't think people know how well Wood is doing. Who routinely checks AHL boxscores or the leaderboard? Do they even do it for our own prospects? If so, I welcome someone else posting about our prospects when they do. They probably think it gets brought up because he scored a nice goal against the Rampage. And Bleackley is signed and playing in the AHL, which is all I claimed and people didn't think he was going to do. Maybe the team will stop digging the hole they are in, maybe they won't. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Muffin]

Am I the only insane person who thinks that with Jost coming along so finely, we could actually keep Duchene (as we should anyways) and finally, please, for the sake of all that is holy, move MacKinnon to RW going forward? Honestly, what is wrong with this top 6?

Landeskog - Duchene - MacKinnon
whoever - Jost - Rantanen

(Switch Duchene and MacKinnon if you really want, Duchene is more than adept at RW)

We could trade Barrie for a top 6 forward. Someone like RNH?
Landeskog-RNH-MacKinnon
Top3 pick- Duchene - Rantanen

Sign Kulikov + Shattenkirk with the cap space we free up.

This would be my dream off season.

 

[detrude]

That's how those deals work though. You want a blue chip prospect/young NHL player from another org then you are going to pay for it unless something has happened to completely submarine their value.

There's a difference between needing to give to get, and just throwing around assets to fix a hole. Look up various trades around the league involving core players and you'll see the difference. Desperate teams/GMs tend to throw assets around and overpay, while while smarter GMs tend to shift the value around and/or do one-for-one swaps. We were in the first group.

It can (and has) been argued that both trades were more or less fair market value, but we still acted out of desperation and gave up too much in the process. I'll say it again: a team that's still building/growing absolutely has to find a way to keep Shattenkirk (or at least the 2nd) out of the EJ deal (and make the 1st not top-10 protected, but that didn't end up mattering), and a 29th place team needs to find a way to not give up a 1st AND two 2nds in the upcoming draft when trading for a goalie. I understand why people might be gun shy after these, but the team really shouldn't be. Sakic/McFarland/whomever needs to just make sure to do a better job of simplifying trades or shifting value.

 

[henchman21]

The Avs never should've thought going for a rental was the right move in the 1st place.

for bold-sadly no some people still think the avs gave up nothing. Until Wood makes the NHL like with Syndergaard he'll be considered a mystery box by the masses. Not everyone knows everything about everything like you do.

That is a fine opinion to have, but it is always stated in a way that shows how good Wood is doing therefore it was dumb. Not that Sakic paid the price for a rental that didn't work.

I don't believe that is the case on this board. I think most people know and have known.

Like I said, its not about the trade. The reasons for it we have been over enough. And no I don't think people know how well Wood is doing. Who routinely checks AHL boxscores or the leaderboard? Do they even do it for our own prospects? If so, I welcome someone else posting about our prospects when they do. They probably think it gets brought up because he scored a nice goal against the Rampage. And Bleackley is signed and playing in the AHL, which is all I claimed and people didn't think he was going to do. Maybe the team will stop digging the hole they are in, maybe they won't. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

A case can be made without using this trade as a crutch to be case. Plenty of ammo out there.I don't agree with a lot of things the Avs do, either.

I think people really do know. It gets brought up a lot here.

Bleacks was going to get a deal. If he doesn't straighten up somethings, he isn't going to stick in the AHL past this season. He is getting a chance right now and is blowing it. He isn't getting brought up here because he doesn't make a point against the front office though.