Rumor: AVS Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents & Related Topics 2016-17 Part IV

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Duchene has played with those two, but he has had significant time with better players. Rants is his most common linemate this year. MacK was last year.

Last season:
It is when you get down to his 2nd/3rd most common linemates what the quality is lacking... but that happens with MacK too. MacK' 2nd most common linemate this season is Bourque. Last season it was Tangs. Landy is 3rd in both seasons.

Looks like we just disagree with how long the crappy players were on his lines for. Based on the eye test, he been plagued with them and it is something that stretches far longer than just the past couple of years.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I just assumed LandyMack was talking about Wolski.

 

[tigervixxxen]

That is a fine opinion to have, but it is always stated in a way that shows how good Wood is doing therefore it was dumb. Not that Sakic paid the price for a rental that didn't work.

I don't believe that is the case on this board. I think most people know and have known.



A case can be made without using this trade as a crutch to be case. Plenty of ammo out there.I don't agree with a lot of things the Avs do, either.

I think people really do know. It gets brought up a lot here.

Bleacks was going to get a deal. If he doesn't straighten up somethings, he isn't going to stick in the AHL past this season. He is getting a chance right now and is blowing it. He isn't getting brought up here because he doesn't make a point against the front office though.

I didn't even know Wood was leading the team in scoring until I looked it up so I guess folks look at AHL numbers more than I do. I know Wood would not be substitute for a #1 or blue chip prospect but when the attitude around the fanabse is just pick a D regardless of who it is because we are so desperate then it becomes a bit funny.

I don't get whining about players we could have drafted and didn't. Jones, Forsberg, Pastrnak, etc. That's really where this all came from. But players you've had and don't anymore is absolutely fair game. I get that decisions have to be made sometimes and development isn't linear. I was never upset about the Blandisi thing, it was impossible to know how that situation was going to turn out.

I'm not taking the Bleackley bait and they still could have salvaged a second out of that. We could also have a whole discussion about 20 year olds production in the AHL too.

 

[JLo217]

Management not making any moves thus far signals to me they're just accepting what they got at this point and will begin making moves for the future near the dead line.

 

[henchman21]

I don't get whining about players we could have drafted and didn't. Jones, Forsberg, Pastrnak, etc. That's really where this all came from. But players you've had and don't anymore is absolutely fair game.

Aren't these kind of the same thing? They are personnel decisions. More picks are useless if the Avs can't start drafting better... it just really means more crap (TBF I think they are doing a better job... not perfect, but better)

I get not liking the rentals from last season. The result from them sucks, but here is my thing... I'd rather a front office be aggressive and fail than be passive and fail. It was one of the only times that Sakic has pulled off an aggressive move and I think that is a mindset the Avs need more of. For far too long they have made a bunch of half-measures on fixing the team. They will chip away with 2nds/3rds/prospects/young players to fill the holes instead of just making a big move/s to fix the issues.

This isn't just about spending either, it is about selling. Be aggressive in selling off (and getting rid of players you don't want) in Jan/Feb when the season is lost and teams can take back salary.* Then be aggressive in filling the big holes this team has. If it costs a pick or decent prospect to move up and select a player, do it. If you need to overpay a Stralman to convince him to come west, do it. Just make sure the measures are being done on better players and players that fit with the organization going forward. Some stop gaps will be needed, just try to make their impact lessened.

The aggressive vs passive approach was a big part of the split in the summer. This team would look a lot different now if the Avs decided to go a more aggressive route, and overall, I think people would be happier with the team.

Looks like we just disagree with how long the crappy players were on his lines for. Based on the eye test, he been plagued with them and it is something that stretches far longer than just the past couple of years.

I'd say the ice time numbers don't lie. Duchene has had better linemates than people state. Not perfect, but he isn't skating with McLeod constantly. Going back before the past two seasons he was next to a not completely old man Iggy who still put up points and ROR the season before that. For over 3 seasons now, Duchene has consistently had at least one good linemate.

*I should clarify on this statement. I don't mean just sell of players to sell off. A Mitchell for a 5th/6th doesn't really do anything for me, but say Washington wants Mitchell at the deadline... go for a Mitchell for Gersich sort of deal. Be creative and aggressive in finding ways to fill voids.

 

[Mighty Makar]

Management not making any moves thus far signals to me they're just accepting what they got at this point and will begin making moves for the future near the dead line.

This is what I think they're doing, too. I've made posts recently saying we need to trade someone from the core. I still believe we need to do that, but not a panic move, obviously. I knew this season would be a development year, but I didn't think we would be this bad.

There's no doubt we're getting a top 5 pick in June. I can't wait for this season to be over. I hope we lose some dead weight at the trade deadline and make some noise at the draft and free agency.

 

[tigervixxxen]

This isn't just about spending either, it is about selling. Be aggressive in selling off (and getting rid of players you don't want) in Jan/Feb when the season is lost and teams can take back salary. Then be aggressive in filling the big holes this team has. If it costs a pick or decent prospect to move up and select a player, do it. If you need to overpay a Stralman to convince him to come west, do it. Just make sure the measures are being done on better players and players that fit with the organization going forward. Some stop gaps will be needed, just try to make their impact lessened.

The aggressive vs passive approach was a big part of the split in the summer. This team would look a lot different now if the Avs decided to go a more aggressive route, and overall, I think people would be happier with the team.

Like I said, I don't mind the idea of them buying to fill a hole later on down the road. But I will firmly believe they are not in a position to do anything like that until they significantly raise this team's asset base. That does not just mean draft picks. Selling off a few bums at the deadline isn't going to fill the kitty up. If they make some core trades then we can talk about what they are working with at the time but its going to take more than a few months of gathering to get back up to par in that department. If you or anyone else doesn't see it that way its fine but that's what I believe in. I don't have a problem with aggressive, I have a problem doing it without a full hand to deal with.

 

[henchman21]

Like I said, I don't mind the idea of them buying to fill a hole later on down the road. But I will firmly believe they are not in a position to do anything like that until they significantly raise this team's asset base. That does not just mean draft picks. Selling off a few bums at the deadline isn't going to fill the kitty up. If they make some core trades then we can talk about what they are working with at the time but its going to take more than a few months of gathering to get back up to par in that department. If you or anyone else doesn't see it that way its fine but that's what I believe in.

That it won't. Smart drafting will do that more than anything else... something I still don't have a ton of faith in. I really don't care how many picks the Avs gather, I don't think they will get much from it right now (unless they are top 40 picks which is unlikely).

I always say there has to be a balance. A team can't spend everything without gathering. At this pace, a core trade is inevitable. I personally don't think Sakic is aggressive enough to make one this season, or even next summer... but it is going to have to happen to fill the voids this team has. My fear is it will be too late when it actually happens.

 

[Foppa2118]

The Boedker trade was an anomaly, it doesn't need to be cited as evidence of anything. That was the only time the new regime paid that kind of price to send off prospects for what could be a rental. Other than that they sent off individual 2nd round or later picks for players they thought could help them, and almost entirely on players that would be with the team longer than Boedker did.

The problem wasn't necessarily that they gave up those picks. Many teams do the same thing. The difference is most of the players they traded for didn't really help them, as opposed to other teams. Losing the mid round picks was a detriment, but it hurt them because it just expounded on the past bigger mistakes.

Those past mistakes are the REAL problem. Since they started the initial rebuild process, they didn't have a 1st in 2012, and they didn't get an NHL player in 2010 and 2014 with Hishon and Bleackley.

So the real problem is decision making from the previous regime losing their much needed top picks, and the scouting staff (which included the previous director) missing on a couple more top picks.

These are the things that other teams that have rebuilt well have NOT done.

I'm way more critical of the Berra and Gelinas trades than I am the Boedker trade. They lost a 2nd and 3rd round pick on trades that really didn't need to happen. They didn't really need a 3rd string goalie that bad at the time of the Berra trade. Especially one that was a question mark and displayed a lot of inconsistency. Waiting until the summer would have got them a decent backup, and there was word at the time Calgary wasn't even going to sign him.

Gelinas, it was clear was a bad defenseman from day 1. That threw away a 3rd for no reason. Sometimes you need to be patient to evaluate defenseman, but sometimes when a d man is so bad past a certain age, and just has really poor instincts and decision making, it can be pretty obvious. It should have been obvious to to the team.

And the evaluation that Gelinas might be good falls on the pro scouting staff, and really is just another in an incredibly long list of bad evaluations on defenseman. They just are not good at identifying defenseman that will help them. That's a HUGE part of the problem.

The previous regime's decisions to move top picks. The current and previous amateur scouting staff's decisions on draft picks. And the pro scouting staff's recommendations on good defenseman are the problem to focus on.

The Boedker trade by itself is much more a hindsight evaluation. People talk about how important drafting and developing is, but they don't realize this trade was done purely to help develop the young players who's development had stagnated because they didn't get any playoff experience, and gain that knowledge of what it take to win tight games. Just liked Matthias, he seemed genuinely interested in staying and not being a rental. By all accounts it seems they kept their desire to sign elsewhere all to themselves.

Boedker didn't blow the roof off the Pepsi center, but he did what he was expected to in a few games. Be a difference maker and get them some big goals. It wasn't enough to pull them into the playoffs, so because of that it didn't pan out.

On the list of reasons for why the franchise is in the position they are, the Boedker trade is pretty far down, and not really an example of anything since they never really made any other trades like it.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

I wouldn't say it was a short-cut at the time. It was a team that had just drafted Matt Duchene in 2009 to be the team's future 1C, had just drafted Gabriel Landeskog a few days earlier to be the team's 1st line all around winger, had Paul Stastny signed for a few more years, and had Ryan O'Reilly coming up, too.

Yes, the defence was putrid but at the time, I can see the rationale for doing it. The young team needed a stable presence, and the management group thought Varly could provide that. Couple that with going out and acquiring Erik Johnson half-way through the season to be the team's future 1D.

Looking back on it now, maybe it was best to stay away from Varly given his groin problems and where the team is now, but that's hindsight. To be completely honest, I actually enjoyed management being aggressive. They saw a need in net and solidified it. They saw a need on the back-end and solidified it.

The questionable thing to be is that they never seemed to see the need for a better back-end aside from EJ. As if trading for him was enough for the team to take off.

I don't think we can ever say trading for Varly was mistake. He gave us the best performance since Roy. We finally found that solid #1 goaltender we were missing for years.

 

[tigervixxxen]

On the list of reasons for why the franchise is in the position they are, the Boedker trade is pretty far down, and not really an example of anything since they never really made any other trades like it.

The reason no, but it embodies so many things that's wrong with this org it truly is a cherry on top of their futility. And trust me, I'd love to stop talking about it and forget it ever happened.

 

[xbestboybandever]

The reason no, but it embodies so many things that's wrong with this org it truly is a cherry on top of their futility. And trust me, I'd love to stop talking about it and forget it ever happened.

Alright, I'll bite. How does it embody anything negative with this organization?

 

[Ceremony]

Alright, I'll bite. How does it embody anything negative with this organization?

Cluelessness

 

[tigervixxxen]

Alright, I'll bite. How does it embody anything negative with this organization?

I'm not going there, sorry. I know nobody wants to hear about it any longer. Wasn't fishing for the question either. If folks see it as not really a big deal, that's fine. We all see things differently. To me it's indicative of every single major issue this org has. That's why it keeps coming back up.

 

[JLo217]

The aggressive vs passive approach was a big part of the split in the summer. This team would look a lot different now if the Avs decided to go a more aggressive route, and overall, I think people would be happier with the team.



I'd say the ice time numbers don't lie. Duchene has had better linemates than people state. Not perfect, but he isn't skating with McLeod constantly. Going back before the past two seasons he was next to a not completely old man Iggy who still put up points and ROR the season before that. For over 3 seasons now, Duchene has consistently had at least one good linemate.

*I should clarify on this statement. I don't mean just sell of players to sell off. A Mitchell for a 5th/6th doesn't really do anything for me, but say Washington wants Mitchell at the deadline... go for a Mitchell for Gersich sort of deal. Be creative and aggressive in finding ways to fill voids.

Mind sharing how the team would look?

 

[Avs44]

Boyband, you should be ashamed. TV is one of the best fans on these boards. Her contributions and knowledge embarrasses yours. Feel free to leave if you don't like it.

 

[henchman21]

Mind sharing how the team would look?

I've alluded to some of it on here, but I shouldn't put it out publicly. I also do truly believe it is best to look forward, what is done, is done. Time to move forward with what the Avs have and the GM they have in place. Things changed this summer and it is time to see what Sakic and MacFarland do The moves made this summer are 99% theirs and we will see how they manage going forward.

Honestly, I just think you are a garbage fan

This is uncalled for. TV may not agree with anybody (though I think a lot more agree with her than don't), including myself, but to call her a garbage fan is BS.

 

[xbestboybandever]

That's awfully rude. You don't get to decide what certain fans want to see. There will always be a difference of opinions which is why we always nag at each other but criticizing someone because of how they root for their team isn't cool.

Nor is listening to you all ***** and moan the last 3 seasons about how the front office is doing it wrong. You don't like it? Go jump on another band wagon.

 

[JLo217]

I've alluded to some of it on here, but I shouldn't put it out publicly. I also do truly believe it is best to look forward, what is done, is done. Time to move forward with what the Avs have and the GM they have in place. Things changed this summer and it is time to see what Sakic and MacFarland do The moves made this summer are 99% theirs and we will see how they manage going forward.



This is uncalled for. TV may not agree with anybody, including myself, but to call her a garbage fan is BS.

Totally respect that. I hate curiosity ha.

 

[JLo217]

Nor is listening to you all ***** and moan the last 3 seasons about how the front office is doing it wrong. You don't like it? Go jump on another band wagon.

Or you can find a new place to talk with Avs fans? You're one person...

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Nor is listening to you all ***** and moan the last 3 seasons about how the front office is doing it wrong. You don't like it? Go jump on another band wagon.

When did I ever say our front office is doing it wrong. I've been an Avalanche fan since 1995. I don't jump on bandwagons.

If you don't enjoy hfboards why are you here?

 

[xbestboybandever]

Or you can find a new place to talk with Avs fans? You're one person...

You call yourselves fans? You love the team when they are winning, and the second things go south, you start saying that we have to fire everyone and tank for the best draft pick. It's a joke. Do I wish the team was better? 100%. Do I hope some moves are made to improve the team? 100%. Is good drafting important? Yes. We are half way through the season, how about you start rooting for the team instead of waiting for the offseason.

 

[Avs44]

You call yourselves fans? You love the team when they are winning, and the second things go south, you start saying that we have to fire everyone and tank for the best draft pick. It's a joke. Do I wish the team was better? 100%. Do I hope some moves are made to improve the team? 100%. Is good drafting important? Yes. We are half way through the season, how about you start rooting for the team instead of waiting for the offseason.

Maybe you should realize we are rooting for the team, we just realize its infeasible and dumb to dream about winning anything this year. Just because other fans don't cheer for a fantasy does not mean we aren't still cheering for the team - we are just cheering for the creation of a team that is actually capable of winning something in the future. Yes, that is a process, and yes, that can take years.


If you don't like us talking about prospects or selling off or off-season moves, and you want to shut it down and not read it, then either put everyone on ignore or leave the board.

 

[JLo217]

You call yourselves fans? You love the team when they are winning, and the second things go south, you start saying that we have to fire everyone and tank for the best draft pick. It's a joke. Do I wish the team was better? 100%. Do I hope some moves are made to improve the team? 100%. Is good drafting important? Yes. We are half way through the season, how about you start rooting for the team instead of waiting for the offseason.

How tall is your Horse you get to be all high and mighty on?

 

[xbestboybandever]

You call yourselves fans? You love the team when they are winning, and the second things go south, you start saying that we have to fire everyone and tank for the best draft pick. It's a joke. Do I wish the team was better? 100%. Do I hope some moves are made to improve the team? 100%. Is good drafting important? Yes. We are half way through the season, how about you start rooting for the team instead of waiting for the offseason.

Maybe you should realize we are rooting for the team, we just realize its infeasible and sheer stupidity to dream about winning anything this year. Just because other fans don't cheer for a fantasy does not mean we aren't still cheering for the team - we are just cheering for the creation of a team that is actually capable of winning something in the future. Yes, that is a process, and yes, that can take years.

Oh brother. That statement alone is exactly what I mean. Are we eliminated from the playoffs yet? No? Then there is still a chance to do something, albeit, a long shot, but there is still a chance. The fact that you gave up, doesn't mean the rest of us have to go down with you.