Rumor: Avs Proposals/Rumors/Free Agents 18-19 part XIII| Trade Everyone!

[Meeqs]

Nashville, San Jose, Washington, Anaheim, Columbus, Tampa, carolina, minnesota, Calgary, St Louis, Boston, Philly.

So that would give us around the 13th best d core in the league. So right around league average.

I disagree with the bolded teams. While some could be debatably better today, they are much older and don't come close over the long term. Some aren't even better in either category.

I think the Avs easily have a top 10 dcore in the NHL and it will only get better with time.

 

[Meeqs]

Basic common sense. There is no #1 D in the group. We've seen Girard and Z struggle at different points this season, which is going to happen with youngsters but means they can't be wholly relied on. God knows enough fans rag on Barrie 24/7, including the fellow who just liked your post. Cole is pretty clearly a #4 or so guy. Compare it to other D corps around the league and it's quite middle of the pack. And incidentally, there are no stats that will prove me wrong.

Ahh right, the most common resource on message boards, common sense.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Nashville is the only 1 , the rest are worse or on par.
Per 6 man unit. San Jose ok , got the big 3 but 2 are horrendous poor defensively.

Philly d is 1 of the worst , outside of Provorov and Gostibehere they're really bad.
Pittsburg outside of Letang are brutal . And most the others only have 3 decent.

He said now and future. Phillys D in the future will be good.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I disagree with the bolded teams. While some could be debatably better today, they are much older and don't come close over the long term. Some aren't even better in either category.

I think the Avs easily have a top 10 dcore in the NHL and it will only get better with time.

How is our D core better than Washington’s? They have an arguable #1 guy in Carlson. One of the best shutdown pairs with 2 #2 guys in Orlov and Niskanen. Kempny, Orpik, and Djoos are solid Dmen as well. No way we have a better d than they do.

 

[Meeqs]

How is our D core better than Washington’s? They have an arguable #1 guy in Carlson. One of the best shutdown pairs with 2 #2 guys in Orlov and Niskanen. Kempny, Orpik, and Djoos are solid Dmen as well. No way we have a better d than they do.

They're better today but all of those guys are nearing the end of their primes. The difference of opinion is likely me putting more weight in the long term than the right now. Carlson and Orlov are killers and Niskanen is solid but I think their D is overrated because their forward core and system are so solid/deep.

Like if you had a team and had to pick between the 2 I think you go Col all day.

 

[The Abusement Park]

They're better today but all of those guys are nearing the end of their primes. The difference of opinion is likely me putting more weight in the long term than the right now. Carlson and Orlov are killers and Niskanen is solid but I think their D is overrated because their forward core and system are so solid/deep.

Like if you had a team and had to pick between the 2 I think you go Col all day.

You asked me what teams were better now and in the future. Right now their d core is definitely better than us, you can move the goalposts.

 

[Foppberg]

Nashville is the only 1 , the rest are worse or on par.
Per 6 man unit. San Jose ok , got the big 3 but 2 are horrendous poor defensively.

Avs: Johnson, Barrie, Zadorov, Girard, Cole

Anaheim: Fowler, Montour, Lindholm, Manson
Boston:McAvoy, Krug, Carlo, Chara
Calgary: Giordano, Brodie, Hanifin, Valimaki, Andersson
Carolina: Faulk, Pesce, Hamilton, Slavin, DeHaan, TVR
Columbus: Jones, Werenski, Nutivaara, Murray
Minnesota: Suter, Dumba, Spurgeon, Brodin
Nashville: Josi, Subban, Ekholm, Ellis
Pittsburgh: Letang, Dumoulin, Maatta, Schultz
San Jose: Burns, Karlsson, Vlasic, Braun, Dillon
St.Louis: Pietroangleo, Parayko, Edmundson
Tampa: Hedman, Stralman, McDonagh, Coburn, Sergachev
Washington: Carlson, Niskanen, Orlov
Winnipeg: Byfuglien, Trouba, Morrissey, Myers

Not even including those teams depth defenders which are much better than the likes of Nemeth and Barberio.


Only ones that I can say we're close/equal to would be Pittsburgh and even then, they have a constant Norris contender in Letang on their team. If you honestly think only Nashville is better than what we have? That's something I can't wrap my head around. Girard/Zadorov/Makar etc have great potential, but as of today that's what our defence is, potential. When they're on Barrie and EJ are great pieces but don't match up to the top tier teams.

 

[Meeqs]

You asked me what teams were better now and in the future. Right now their d core is definitely better than us, you can move the goalposts.

No no, I'm not moving the goal posts, I'm just saying that because we are counting both criteria that is likely why our opinions differ, because you may put more weight on the now where WSH is better and I am putting more weight on the future aspect as the Avs dcore is so young and WSH's is so old. I'm not discrediting anything you are saying or changing the criteria, just noting the difference in views.

I personally put more weight in the long term approach as most teams in the NHL aren't true contenders in any given year so the longer a dcore has left of their prime the more valuable I view them as that will give that team the most amount of competitive years and chances to make serious runs. For an example Makar has insane value in a long term approach.

Where as if you are more of the mind set of simply who is the best Dcore right now this season you would just want to pick the overall best group ignoring anything past that. In this approach a player like Makar has zero value as he isn't in the league currently.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Whatever. If you believe we have the 2nd best d core in the league I don’t know what to tell you. Well just never agree .

 

[Meeqs]

Whatever. If you believe we have the 2nd best d core in the league I don’t know what to tell you. Well just never agree .

I think top 10 is fair, top 2 is probably pushing it a bit. Maybe in a year or 2 depending on how the kids develop and the contracts they sign but right now that's optimistic to be sure.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I think top 10 is fair, top 2 is probably pushing it a bit. Maybe in a year or 2 depending on how the kids develop and the contracts they sign but right now that's optimistic to be sure.

Oh NS said top 2 my bad. I think currently right now at this point in time we’re in the 13-16 range with potential to improve from there. I just find it hard to be considered a top 10 d while lacking a true #1 dman. Every team in the top 10 has one bar Washington maybe, but their top 3 is so good thay it somewhat makes up for it.

 

[Piestany88]

Oh NS said top 2 my bad. I think currently right now at this point in time we’re in the 13-16 range with potential to improve from there. I just find it hard to be considered a top 10 d while lacking a true #1 dman. Every team in the top 10 has one bar Washington maybe, but their top 3 is so good thay it somewhat makes up for it.

I'm saying the Avs are on par from teams 2/3 through 10. And Carlsson in Washington is a #1 d

 

[Piestany88]

Whatever. If you believe we have the 2nd best d core in the league I don’t know what to tell you. Well just never agree .

6 deep , only Tampa , Anaheim and Nashville, Calgary and Carolina are as deep or deeper . Minnesota, Pittsburgh, Philly , Boston , etc aren't better or as deep . Heck Montreal with a healthy Weber are better than those teams

 

[Pokecheque]

When EJ and Barrie decide to start playing well, then I'll continue to sing this D-core's praises. Right now they're definitely NOT Top-10 though.

 

[Piestany88]

When EJ and Barrie decide to start playing well, then I'll continue to sing this D-core's praises. Right now they're definitely NOT Top-10 though.

Winnipeg is having the same problems with Myers, they want to trade him but can't give him away

 

[Avs_19]

Winnipeg is having the same problems with Myers, they want to trade him but can't give him away

Where'd you get that? Just two days ago LeBrun said the Jets have no intention of trading Myers, even if he's still unsigned at the deadline, and they recently met with his agent.

 

[Avs44]

Where'd you get that? Just two days ago LeBrun said the Jets have no intention of trading Myers, even if he's still unsigned at the deadline, and they recently met with his agent.

He's making it up.

 

[Piestany88]

Where'd you get that? Just two days ago LeBrun said the Jets have no intention of trading Myers, even if he's still unsigned at the deadline, and they recently met with his agent.

I read it about a week ago , forget the article exactly, never gave it a lot if thought. Perhaps that is why Lebrun clarified 2 days ago I would presume . Was either TSN or Sportsnet .

If the Jets feel they an make a cup run I vould see why they wouldn't trade him .
I thought originally he was just playing poorly

 

[Meeqs]

Oh NS said top 2 my bad. I think currently right now at this point in time we’re in the 13-16 range with potential to improve from there. I just find it hard to be considered a top 10 d while lacking a true #1 dman. Every team in the top 10 has one bar Washington maybe, but their top 3 is so good thay it somewhat makes up for it.

Imo "Top or #1 dman" is the most useless and misused concept on here. It means something different to every single person and no one knows what criteria it fits under. Like I get what you're going for but on here it always causes nothing but problems.

Aside form that I'd also say having a super elite defenseman isn't that important, the league is moving more towards overall depth on defense being more valuable and you just need players who are good enough. I'd say both Barrie and EJ are top pairing level dmen, and as they decline both Girard and Makar have the ability to grow into that type of role as well.

I just think rating dcores by "who has a true #1 guy" is the wrong way to look at things with the way the game is trending today.

 

[Meeqs]

When EJ and Barrie decide to start playing well, then I'll continue to sing this D-core's praises. Right now they're definitely NOT Top-10 though.

If we're only looking at right now then they might not crack that list, but if its now and in the future then they are one of the best.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Imo "Top or #1 dman" is the most useless and misused concept on here. It means something different to every single person and no one knows what criteria it fits under. Like I get what you're going for but on here it always causes nothing but problems.

Aside form that I'd also say having a super elite defenseman isn't that important, the league is moving more towards overall depth on defense being more valuable and you just need players who are good enough. I'd say both Barrie and EJ are top pairing level dmen, and as they decline both Girard and Makar have the ability to grow into that type of role as well.

I just think rating dcores by "who has a true #1 guy" is the wrong way to look at things with the way the game is trending today.

I’m not entirely saying that. But all the teams with those super elite dmen are usually on pretty deep d cores. Doughty a few years ago was on a super deep D, same with Keith, Petro, Hedman, Chara, Josi, and so on and so forth. Obviously some of those d cores aren’t what they used to be, but typically the deepest D cores have a true #1 guy.

 

[Brett44]

Off the top of my head Anaheim, Boston, Calgary, Carolina, Columbus, Minnesota, Nashville, Pittsburgh, San Jose, St.Louis, Tampa, Washington, and Winnipeg all have better defences than ours. So right around average, again we have some nice young players (Makar, Girard, Zadorov, *Timmins) but we're not stacked at all. Maybe if they pan out, but not right now.

I agree but pittsburg and Winnipeg are not better than us in D.

 

[Foppberg]

I agree but pittsburg and Winnipeg are not better than us in D.

Pittsburgh is iffy, but Winnipeg? Yeah they def are.

 

[Meeqs]

I’m not entirely saying that. But all the teams with those super elite dmen are usually on pretty deep d cores. Doughty a few years ago was on a super deep D, same with Keith, Petro, Hedman, Chara, Josi, and so on and so forth. Obviously some of those d cores aren’t what they used to be, but typically the deepest D cores have a true #1 guy.

A deep dcore is having players who play at or above their role, so in a sense having an elite dman IS depth and they can also carry a lesser dman on a pair to an extent. It can definitely be a good thing (bad contracts being the bad variant) but I'm just saying it isn't necessary, and other factors probably end up making a bigger difference.

For example I would take a solid top pair without an elite guy + a solid 3rd pair over a top pair with an elite #1 + a weak 3rd pair. Granted that is pretty vague and subjective but I think the idea is clear enough. So being able to have Zads on a 3rd pair far outweighs not having an elite #1 guy.

 

[Meeqs]

Pittsburgh is iffy, but Winnipeg? Yeah they def are.

Wpgs D is really odd because a lot of it is up in the air with contracts. Myers hurt a bunch and upcoming UFA, Trouba has had contract issues forever and Buff is getting older. They have some solid prospects and kids though so its a bit up in the air. As of today WPG's D is better than the Avs, but for how long who knows