Post-Game Talk: Avs @ Devils 5PM MST || All they needed was some more chemistry and some symmetries.

[5280]

Since changing the defensive structure Avs are 3-2 and have been at least as good as the opponents in four of the games (vs Leafs, Flyers, Rangers and Devils). It's just the Islanders game that was real bad and sent everyone into the abyss.

They're slowly getting there. Landeskog, Iginla and O'Reilly are looking better. Barrie has that jump and has been good in his own end, especially with the puck on his stick. EJ and Hejda handles 25 minutes a game better than anyone could have hoped. Duchene, while not perfect, is playing with the drive he has to.

The positive developments are there.

Now they have four days to try to figure out how to play on the PP. MacKinnon will have a learning year and that's not strange. Hopefully Stuart will be back so Roy can at least create two pairs he trusts.

I still don't think they'll make the playoffs but they'll be fine going forward. There is a lot of skill on the team so it's not out of the question that the pieces fall into their proper place and they'll make it interesting.

I've flushed the Islanders game from my mind because it made me sillier than I normally am.

Well said, bro, as usual.

Duchene and Tanguay have definitely been our best forwards so far. But Duchene trying to take on 4 guys at once or do stupid fancy stuff that leads to a turnover has happened way too much.

This is the way I look at it, too. Giving credit where it is due, RoR looked like a fairly normal RoR last night. It was good to see.

 

[TheStranger]

Most defenders can't handle much more than 25 minutes a night. Players that play an economical style while being able to recoup energy quickly on the bench can play up to 30 minutes (Lidström, Keith, Suter).

I'd be surprised if EJ can handle playing those kinds of minutes since he has a physical playing style. Once in a while is probably not a problem but if he lands on 24-25 minutes a night in the long run, that's probably at a level where he can perform at a high level without wearing down.

Look at Phaneuf last year. For the first 50-60 games they used him 24-25 minutes and after that he was done and was terrible down the stretch. They reduced his minutes to help him and it still wasn't enough.

I imagine once you hit the wall during a season, it would take more than reduced minutes to get over it.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Interesting points of view, re: Duchene. It does seem that Duchene is getting a bit of a pass here, because early on, the Avs forward corps have not played at all well together. So, just about *everyone* hasn't been playing really good hockey with their linemates. Duchene has had (IMO) some individual efforts that surpass those of his teammates, and perhaps that's why he "gets a pass". I sure hope it has nothing to do with him owning a Sakic jersey as a kid. That would be simply stupid.

That said, even if we don't excuse Duchene's turnovers, he has simply been better than O'Reilly so far this season.

I do believe that the last two games represent the first two of the season in which both Duchene and O'Reilly played fairly solid games - last night in particular. Actually, I thought last night was one of O'R's best games of the season, if not the best. Good to see.

As to this conversation about Duchene, I'd say he also gets more of a pass because of where he turns it over.

You know that with his skill level it's worth letting him take some extra risk in the offensive zone.

Last night it was a little ridiculous, to the point where he was creating more problems than scoring chances. However usually the scoring threat he creates for himself and his linemates is worth a few turnovers in the neutral zone or in the offensive zone.

Duchene is also usually ahead of the play, and not turning it over when a majority of the players on the ice are deep in the offensive zone. Which also makes it easier to recover when he makes those mistakes.

You also rarely see Duchene turn the puck over or make a stupid decision with the puck while coming out of our zone as well.

So while Duchene has had a couple frustrating periods and games (last night was bad), his mistakes usually do not end up in the back of our net, or even one or two plays removed either.

That's my prospective...

Duchene vs Landy/O'Reilly... You just expect more defensively from the other two, and offensively to be honest. They've made their paychecks from being two-way forwards, when their not scoring at a good rate, and not playing well in defensive situations it's an issue.

Neither of them are or most likely will be point per game players regularly, so at 5-6M they need to bring it at both ends of the ice. That hasn't happened this season.

 

[Pokecheque]

I actually agree with Dater insofar that Duchene plays his best hockey when he's playing a simpler game. When he's getting too fancy, when he's trying to do too much, he gets in trouble. Part of that is confidence IMO, part of what's currently plaguing MacKinnon as well. It'll work out in time once Roy addresses other problems.

Duchene has been asked to take on a heavier workload this season and is handling it quite well all things considered. MacKinnon is struggling a little more but that's to be expected...dude's 19 for cryin' out loud.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I've been saying all year that MacKinnon is someone that needs to feel the puck, to feel the game and to get that sense that he can take over the game in order to be at his best. He will never be good in a lesser role. If he hasn't earned it, I get it. I'm not saying a 19 year old should be given everything without merit. And he will have to earn it through hard work, doing things right like defensively and on faceoffs. But he's going to continue to be quiet until he starts feeling it again and seeing the minutes.

 

[Foppa2118]

Mack doesn't seem to know what to do with the puck in the neutral zone. He's made tons of bad passes that stunted the rush or got turned over, and he's afraid to try and beat guys with his speed.

I've been saying it since the summer. He really needs a guy to help him handle the puck and create plays, especially with setting him up in transition to use his speed. Tanguay is the only guy that really makes sense, unless they want to call up Hishon.

Landy can handle the puck well, and is an underrated playmaker, but this isn't really his forte. He needs an element of what Stastny helped him with last year, and what Drouin was able to help him with in junior. Tangs can slow the game down as well as anyone in the league, and then hit Mack with a pass in flight. This is how you utilize speed in the NHL, you don't just have everyone playing at full speed, you need to change it up to confuse the opposition. Systems are too good to just play at the same pace.

He's just trying to do too much on his own in the middle of the ice, and he's not comfortable doing it right now.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

Win a few games and maybe they loosen up a bit, if Varly and McGinn's Instagram post is any indication.

 

[Metallo]

Most defenders can't handle much more than 25 minutes a night. Players that play an economical style while being able to recoup energy quickly on the bench can play up to 30 minutes (Lidström, Keith, Suter).

I'd be surprised if EJ can handle playing those kinds of minutes since he has a physical playing style. Once in a while is probably not a problem but if he lands on 24-25 minutes a night in the long run, that's probably at a level where he can perform at a high level without wearing down.

Look at Phaneuf last year. For the first 50-60 games they used him 24-25 minutes and after that he was done and was terrible down the stretch. They reduced his minutes to help him and it still wasn't enough.

I'm not talking 25-30 min, but he played less then 21 in both his 2 full seasons under Sacco. Then Roy increased it to 23 last year. I think he can take close to 25.

 

[Pokecheque]

I don't mind that EJ is getting monster minutes--I just mind the reasons it's necessary.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I don't think they are riding EJ because everyone else sucks, it's because they and EJ himself want him to become that type of defenseman.

 

[Pokecheque]

I don't think they are riding EJ because everyone else sucks, it's because they and EJ himself want him to become that type of defenseman.

Oh they most definitely did last game because of that. Roy essentially benched both Guenin and Holden and sent out pairings of EJ/Barrie and Hejda/Redmond.

I'd like to see more EJ/Barrie at even strength. That pairing works IMO.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Yes and no. The 30 minutes in some ways yes but Roy always shortens the bench when they are in comeback mode. It's been a conscious decision to make him like a 25 minute defenseman though.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I'd like to see more EJ/Barrie at even strength. That pairing works IMO.

small sample but they have 57.1% corsi together. pretty nice on a under 44% team.

 

[Pokecheque]

small sample but they have 57.1% corsi together. pretty nice on a under 44% team.

Didn't know that but not surprised.

Whatever the case those two have great chemistry together. I think someone on here was dead-set against the two puckmover pairing, but it works just fine so long as each guy is on the same page and they have plenty of support from the forwards to drop back if they decide to rush it.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Nope.


Duchene hasn't been turning the puck over half as much as(For whatever reason) you think he has.


He had maybe 2 bad turnovers last night.



Honestly, I haven't been saying anything about ROR's game all year either. He's certainly not playing at the level he was last year, but I dont think he's been nearly as bad as a lot of people are making him out to be this year.


Duchene has been our best player almost every night this year. He's made a couple bad decisions with the puck, but not half as many as you think he has.

"Half as many as I think he has"? Exactly how many times do you think I think he has turned it over? I just think the past few weeks he has been turning it over more than usual (not necessarily bad turnovers) and that he hasn't been seeing those great passes he usually does. Numerous times I've gotten wide-eyed seeing a play develop or a guy open for a good look, but Duchene just keeps the puck instead of seeing those plays. That really never happened before.

Sorry, wasn't trying to imply that you've been saying anything about RoR. It was more a comment directed at the general tone of the board. I really should have clarified that at first. It just seems like in general Duchene gets a pass for these things most everyone else is overly criticized for.

Its like the bolded is supposed to justify your opinion or something....


It doesn't. He's not nearly as bad as you're making him out to be. Dont understand why its all of a sudden Duchene who were going to make up false claims about(It has been ROR up until now), but for some reason it is.


He had a meh game last night, that's it. He was great against NYR. He and Tangs were the best players on the ice. Everyone sucked against NYI(But again, Duchene was probably still our best player).


First it was ROR getting the pretty baseless hate. He was playing bad, but nowhere near the level some people pretended he was playing. Now its time to move on Duchene I guess.



If anyone is deserving of these criticisms right now, its Mack and to a lesser extent Landeskog. Mack is the one who turns the puck over almost every time he takes it up the ice. Roy has obviously seen this as well by moving Mitchell up the #2C spot and Mack down to the #3C spot.


If Duchene was really having these problems, Roy would be moving him down too.

The only reason I said anything about Duchene is because others talk about how great he is night in and night out as if he is playing as good as he can and doing no wrong while ignoring all the little mistakes that others get criticized for. But he too is making mistakes and isn't always the best player on the ice (but I value defense more than most hockey fans it seems like, which is typically what keeps him from being the best on certain nights. For ex: there is no way I would say Tangs was one of our best players the other night because his penalty led to their final 2 goals. He redeemed himself, but not enough to be one of the best on the ice).

Pretty much the entire top 9 is deserving of these criticism, not just a select few. Just because MacK is the worst offender in this category doesn't mean he is the only one worthy of the criticism. Duchene's assists are down this year, and I don't think it's just because of everyone else, at least recently.

ROR had his first not terrible game of the year. That's very different than a guy who's had a rough week or two...in which he's still scored and made things happen.

So every game before that was terrible? That's just absurd. Duchene is our best player every night and RoR has only had 1 not terrible game, yet they are separated by only 3 points (RoR actually has more assists, that's just crazy to think about) and Duchene has been much worst defensively.

As to this conversation about Duchene, I'd say he also gets more of a pass because of where he turns it over.

You know that with his skill level it's worth letting him take some extra risk in the offensive zone.

Last night it was a little ridiculous, to the point where he was creating more problems than scoring chances. However usually the scoring threat he creates for himself and his linemates is worth a few turnovers in the neutral zone or in the offensive zone.

Duchene is also usually ahead of the play, and not turning it over when a majority of the players on the ice are deep in the offensive zone. Which also makes it easier to recover when he makes those mistakes.

You also rarely see Duchene turn the puck over or make a stupid decision with the puck while coming out of our zone as well.

So while Duchene has had a couple frustrating periods and games (last night was bad), his mistakes usually do not end up in the back of our net, or even one or two plays removed either.

That's my prospective...

Duchene vs Landy/O'Reilly... You just expect more defensively from the other two, and offensively to be honest. They've made their paychecks from being two-way forwards, when their not scoring at a good rate, and not playing well in defensive situations it's an issue.

Neither of them are or most likely will be point per game players regularly, so at 5-6M they need to bring it at both ends of the ice. That hasn't happened this season.

His (tied with MacK and Holden) mistakes have led to more goals than anyone else on the team except Barrie. 2nd amongst forwards in what I consider really bad plays as well.

Landy and RoR have actually been very solid in the Dzone. Lando's mistakes have only led to 2 goals all year (both times he lost a battle he probably should have won). RoR has only had 4 goal allowing mistakes, only 2 of which were defensive (others were a lost FO and once he dumped the puck which they got and then took down the ice for a score).

 

[Tweaky]

On the giveaways theme:

Link to source: http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats....ASALL&sort=giveaways&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

 

[cgf]

Oh they most definitely did last game because of that. Roy essentially benched both Guenin and Holden and sent out pairings of EJ/Barrie and Hejda/Redmond.

I'd like to see more EJ/Barrie at even strength. That pairing works IMO.

He only did that over the later half of the third period though when we were chasing the game. Putting both Barrie and EJ out there when we're chasing the game is a good in game move, and the Hejda-Redmond pairing spelled them enough to eat most of the minutes down the stretch.

So I'm not sure how much of that was roy benching HOlden and Guenin and how much of that was just him feeding the guys who could get us back into the game as we were pressing for first the equalizer and then the go ahead goal.

 

[Avsboy]

Basically we need Stuart back.

Top of the list of things I thought I'd never say.

 

[cgf]

So every game before that was terrible?

I hate the 'you disagree with me so you must not watch the games' "logic", but this makes me have to ask, have you been watching this year?

ROR has been awful all year, he's the only reason Landy (my favorite player in the league) hasn't run away with the title of our worst forward thus far. And even defensively Duchene has been better as yesterday was the first time ROR was asserting himself in puck battles and not giving the puck away every time it touched his stick.

Duchene's production has been poor and his play fell apart when Roy put MacK and Landy on his wings, but I don't see how anyone can even compare his play this year to ROR/Landy/MacK. Tanguay's the one forward who's out played duchene, and even he sucked the first 4-5 games harder than Dutchy has since Patty tried the lottery-line.

 

[Tweaky]

ROR has been awful all year, he's the only reason Landy (my favorite player in the league) hasn't run away with the title of our worst forward thus far. And even defensively Duchene has been better as yesterday was the first time ROR was asserting himself in puck battles and not giving the puck away every time it touched his stick.

I feel as though you are ignoring certain things. Like ROR has been better at faceoffs. He has been better defensively (almost double the takeaways of the next highest player). And he is only a couple points behind in scoring, despite being snakebit on shooting (4.4% compared to Duchene's 11%). Duchene is tied with Holden for second on the team in giveaways, has the team;s worst FO% for those that have taken over 25 draws, and has much less defensive responsibility.

Duchene is our best forward this year. Tanguay has been the only one truly close, and if it weren't for the first handful of games, he might be at the top. But ROR, Landy and the rest have not been so much worse than Duchene. They have all sucked compared to how they are capable of doing. Some a bit more than others...but not to the extent that one guy is "beasting it" and some others are sewage.

 

[Freudian]

One thing that may keep Cliche in the lineup, even when Winchester get healthy, is that he's been good on faceoffs this year. He's at 51.7% won this year and even more important: he's won 40/77 of his draws on the PK, where it's normally harder to win draws.

 

[The Mars Volchenkov]

One thing that may keep Cliche in the lineup, even when Winchester get healthy, is that he's been good on faceoffs this year. He's at 51.7% won this year and even more important: he's won 40/77 of his draws on the PK, where it's normally harder to win draws.

Cliche looks better this year. He's getting ragged on too much. He looks stronger on the puck and has even made some passes that have been impressive.

 

[5280]

I feel as though you are ignoring certain things. Like ROR has been better at faceoffs. He has been better defensively (almost double the takeaways of the next highest player). And he is only a couple points behind in scoring, despite being snakebit on shooting (4.4% compared to Duchene's 11%). Duchene is tied with Holden for second on the team in giveaways, has the team;s worst FO% for those that have taken over 25 draws, and has much less defensive responsibility.

Duchene is our best forward this year. Tanguay has been the only one truly close, and if it weren't for the first handful of games, he might be at the top. But ROR, Landy and the rest have not been so much worse than Duchene. They have all sucked compared to how they are capable of doing. Some a bit more than others...but not to the extent that one guy is "beasting it" and some others are sewage.

I have to think RoR takes a little more heat because of the way his party has been negotiating over the past couple of years..... Now is his time to produce...... Might be he is just going through a rough spot most every professional athlete goes through, but he did raise the strength of the microscope trained on him with those negotiation tactics. Maybe it'll just take a little bit of getting used to? (playing with all of that responsibility)

 

[cgf]

I have to think RoR takes a little more heat because of the way his party has been negotiating over the past couple of years..... Now is his time to produce...... Might be he is just going through a rough spot most every professional athlete goes through, but he did raise the strength of the microscope trained on him with those negotiation tactics. Maybe it'll just take a little bit of getting used to? (playing with all of that responsibility)

I give ROR just as much heat as I do Landeskog who signed a team friendly deal and was going to become my favorite NHLer even if we hadn't drafted him. He's just not been himself this year. Last game was the first in which he engaged in a puck battle where I could honestly say that he looked like ROR.

 

[5280]

I give ROR just as much heat as I do Landeskog who signed a team friendly deal and was going to become my favorite NHLer even if we hadn't drafted him. He's just not been himself this year. Last game was the first in which he engaged in a puck battle where I could honestly say that he looked like ROR.

I wasn't really directing my comment at you, but he does seem to be taking a little more heat than Landeskog. (or am I wrong?)