ATD Chat Thread XVIII

[The Macho King]

Where did I say "no talent?" Don't misquote me and save your back in my day shit for your kids.

 

[ResilientBeast]

125	Jack Stewart	D	1917	Canada	Pilot Mound, Manitoba
126	Alex Delvecchio	C / LW	1931	Canada	Fort William, Ontario
127	Vladimir Krutov	LW	1960	Russia	Moscow, Soviet Union
128	Pavel Datsyuk	C	1978	Russia	Sverdlovsk, Soviet Union
129	Pavel Bure	RW	1971	Russia	Moscow, Soviet Union
130	Connor McDavid	C	1997	Canada	Richmond Hill, Ontario

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yeah, "Kings of Leon" Draisaitl has no talent. We're talking about a 24 year old kid with 1 Hart. You guys need to calm down and stop getting so emotional about today's NHL. This is part of the HoH forum.

First his nickname is Dr Drai

Yes Leon Draisaitl is definitely able to make up for poor goaltending and up until this year poor defensemen

You're being intentionally obtuse about @The Macho King 's comment

 

[Johnny Engine]

First his nickname is Dr Drai

Yes Leon Draisaitl is definitely able to make up for poor goaltending and up until this year poor defenseman

You're being intentionally obtuse about @The Macho King 's comment

It's simply unforgivable to accuse someone of minimizing Draisaitl's influence on McDavid without using the phrase "forgot about Drai".

Nowdays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Guys since this is the Oilers board, let's talk about historic comparisons for Jesse Puljujarvi

I think Marian Hossa is probably the floor right? /s

 

[Johnny Engine]

Guys, lets keep our comments civil, and restrict them to talking about Dre, and limited to the following topics:
- Dre
- Aftermath records
- Eminem
- I must have forgotten about Dre, include him.

 

[The Macho King]

Guys, lets keep our comments civil, and restrict them to talking about Dre, and limited to the following topics:
- Dre
- Aftermath records
- Eminem
- I must have forgotten about Dre, include him.

My first CD was the Chronic.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Guys since this is the Oilers board, let's talk about historic comparisons for Jesse Puljujarvi

I think Marian Hossa is probably the floor right? /s

- Alexander Karpovtsev, because "LJ" is almost as hard to pronounce as "VTS".
- Teemu Riijijarvi, for obvious reasons.
- Ville Nieminen, because they both look like alligators trying to pass of as humans, but not in the same way that the goombas from the Mario Bros movie did.
- Marian Hossa
- Eminem, who is the Puljujarvi to Leon Draisaitl's Dre. Which makes McDavid Snoop Dogg, I guess. I dunno, I didn't think it through at all.

 

[ResilientBeast]

So 100 points is practically certain especially since McDavid gets to play the Canucks a couple of more times.

Hard to think any non-oiler crosses 80 points.

Wild

 

[tinyzombies]

He plays a ton of minutes and its high event hockey. I'd rather be trading chances with McDavid on the ice than playing defensive hockey.

Like there's a spectrum here. McDavid isn't going to win a Selke. But is he backchecking hard? Is he staying in front of his guy when he's in his zone instead of blowing the zone for a breakaway the second there's a chance possession changes? That's all I ask for a talent like that. I don't want him playing low event hockey.

If he had a Marner riding shotgun his defensive numbers would be excellent like Matthews' are, though I do think Matthews is the more diligent defender from the ol' eye test.

He's the most talented player any of us have ever seen play I think it's safe to say.

 

[ted2019]

If he had a Marner riding shotgun his defensive numbers would be excellent like Matthews' are, though I do think Matthews is the more diligent defender from the ol' eye test.

He's the most talented player any of us have ever seen play I think it's safe to say.

I think Mario was a bit more talented, but Connor for me, is top 2 or 3.

 

[tinyzombies]

I think Mario was a bit more talented, but Connor for me, is top 2 or 3.

Mario had size on him, that's for sure, and could carry a few cavemen on his back to score. But Connor's skating and hands are better imo. Mario would be unstoppable with these rules, of course. The goalies and structured defenses would bring his numbers down, but he'd still be the best. Hockey sense and deception play large today. In a playoff game, right now, I think I'd rather have Mario than Connor just because of that size.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Hockey fans love size, but Gretzky proved he's the goat.

Hardware favorites:

Art Ross: McDavid
Rocket Richard: Matthews. Toronto is in first place in the North by 8 points. He has my Hart vote.
Hart: McDavid
Norris: Fox
Calder: Kirill
Vezina: Andrei
Selke: Barkov
Lady Byng: Matthews. 10 PIMs
Jack Adams: Joel Quennville

5	Bobby Hull	LW	1939	Canada	Point Anne, Ontario
6	Jean Beliveau	C	1931	Canada	Trois-Rivieres, Quebec
7	Patrick Roy	G	1965	Canada	Quebec City, Quebec
8	Doug Harvey	D	1924	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
9	Maurice Richard	RW	1921	Canada	Montreal, Quebec
10	Ray Bourque	D	1960	Canada	Saint-Laurent, Quebec
11	Howie Morenz	C	1902	Canada	Mitchell, Ontario
12	Sidney Crosby	C	1987	Canada	Halifax, Nova Scotia

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

McDavid has no chance. The #5 player will always be one of the players listed above.

 

[tinyzombies]

Hockey fans love size, but Gretzky proved he's the goat.

Gretzky's the career vs era GOAT and that won't ever change most likely, but Mario's my ACTUAL GOAT. You can't stop him with an Orr or a Stevens or any checking center you can think of. Absolutely unstoppable. Not gonna stop him with a trap or overload either because of his vision and size. And he could score on these goalies too. Imagine his back wasn't injured in junior.. Just like Price is my ACTUAL GOAT goalie.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

Roy > Price

 

[seventieslord]

When I people say things like, "ok gretzky had a better career but Lemieux was better/more talented" I think it's a legit delusion. "You can't stop him" - what, and you could stop Gretzky?

It's obsession with "physical talent" above all else. Gretzky wasn't even one of the 100 most physically talented players of all-time, but talent comes from the brain too. He had that advantage over every player who ever played, including Lemieux. Mario may have been more physically talented, but he was not more talented, because the overall talent calculation must include a brain component. The results bear that out.

 

[VanIslander]

Bowman said a hockey player should have great hands, feet and head and that Gordie had each at the highest level, that he was the model of a perfect hockey player.

Mario and Wayne look deficient, specialist in comparison.

 

[Johnny Engine]

By my count, Mario was stopped by a goalie 2,943 times in his career - I don't think all of them were because of obstruction.

There was a period in the earlier days of the ATD, maybe it was on the LeafsChat board and not here, but you'd have people in series discussions trying to slam dunk their way out by claiming, among other things - Gretzky can't be stopped, Mario can't be stopped, a Jacques Lemaire coached team would inevitably beat any team regardless of the talent disparity, Sprague Cleghorn was literally going to murder all his oponents - hockey isn't played that way at any level above actual ponds.

I don't see a source for SOG for the mid-90s Italian league, but I wonder how many times Jagr missed when he dropped in to clown around for a few games in the 90s.

 

[Theokritos]

I don't see a source for SOG for the mid-90s Italian league, but I wonder how many times Jagr missed when he dropped in to clown around for a few games in the 90s.

That was actually an international league with Italian and Austrian clubs.

 

[The Macho King]

When I people say things like, "ok gretzky had a better career but Lemieux was better/more talented" I think it's a legit delusion. "You can't stop him" - what, and you could stop Gretzky?

It's obsession with "physical talent" above all else. Gretzky wasn't even one of the 100 most physically talented players of all-time, but talent comes from the brain too. He had that advantage over every player who ever played, including Lemieux. Mario may have been more physically talented, but he was not more talented, because the overall talent calculation must include a brain component. The results bear that out.

It's the "looks" unstoppable versus the numbers. It's the Forsberg paradox. Some players look so good at everything they do - often due to a combination of speed, strength, and hands - that the urge is to say that they are better than their results. It's that argument writ large for Gretzky and Mario. Gretzky is a smaller dude, not very fast, not very strong, but he sneezes points. Mario looks dangerous in a visible way every shift, and you just wonder how you can stop him.

Here's the thing - the numbers are ultimately what matters in this. Mario made everything look impossible - like how could anybody do that. Gretzky made everything look easy - like anybody *could* do that. I value the latter more.

 

[VanIslander]

I watched a 5'11 Lithuanian Kasparitis OWN Lemieux physically, making him so annoyed and angry that Mario demand they acquire Darius, which they then did. He did likewise with an ATD dman. Guess who!

The upshot: No way on this green earth would Gordie Howe need such pampering.

And Gretzky was so dang elusive: who really had his number? ... Other than an '80s defensive forward who won a Selke because of it.

 

[The Macho King]

The idea that anyone had Gretzky's "number" in the 80s requires some pretty remarkable evidence, considering he owned the Art Ross and Hart for most of the decade, and got more than his share of Cups and Smythes.

 

[tinyzombies]

Roy > Price

Roy couldn't carry Price's sliders now, let alone during his peak. This is all historian bias. Not sure why we can't admit the obvious. Yes, Roy had the best career (mostly on strong defensive teams) and you can't downplay his ability to rise and dominate on the then biggest stage. He did it better than most not named Gretzky. But even Gretzky says the players are bigger, faster and stronger - over and over. He also says he and Mario would benefit from the new rules.

PS:

Pittsburgh Penguins forward Sidney Crosby has moved passed Alex Ovechkin for 34th on the all time points list:

31. Mike Gartner - 1,335
32. Pierre Turgeon - 1,327
33. Gilbert Perreault - 1,326
34. Sidney Crosby - 1,323
35. Alex Ovechkin - 1,320

 

[tinyzombies]

When I people say things like, "ok gretzky had a better career but Lemieux was better/more talented" I think it's a legit delusion. "You can't stop him" - what, and you could stop Gretzky?

It's obsession with "physical talent" above all else. Gretzky wasn't even one of the 100 most physically talented players of all-time, but talent comes from the brain too. He had that advantage over every player who ever played, including Lemieux. Mario may have been more physically talented, but he was not more talented, because the overall talent calculation must include a brain component. The results bear that out.

They'd both be great, but with the smaller d and new rules Mario's talent, one-on-one ability, size and reach gets rewarded more- especially when the points matter come playoff time. Gretzky was shooting at fish in a barrel- half the teams didn't even play a system. Both of them would have more developed skills and would be in better shape, etc. these days as well. We also haven't seen the best from Connor yet.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Thanks to all the "spread-necks" here in Alberta, we're opening vaccination appointments for everyone 12+ on Monday.

Good news, but quite ashamed in my fellow Albertans

 

[Say Hey Kid]

As he always does, @tarheelhockey made an interesting, intelligent post there > Hockey History: Please vote for the best center