ATD Chat Thread XVIII

Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
Dec 10, 2007
23,612
5,493
ATL
Dave-Keon-Whalers-e1511629119663.jpg


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Thumbs up

Anyone who drafted Clarke, Nighbor, Gainey, Carbonneau, C. Ramsay, Walker, Provost, or Keon, :thumbu:. I hope you win your first round match.
 

Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
Dec 10, 2007
23,612
5,493
ATL
Thanks for the support! Provost is a beast!
You're welcome. I'm no expert, but those are my personal favorite def. forwards regardless of their line irl or in the ATD.

New bifocals and a small phone are a bad combo. There is an adjustment period.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
4,972
2,352
I think McDavid is 1/3rd of the player O'Neill is... mass-wise.
Got curious with some listed weight numbers...

The two players with the highest listed weight in NHL history are Nikita Tryamkin and Derek Boogaard at 265 (we know Buff has been like 60 pounds heavier than that, but let's compare apples to apples, I'm going to assume even Mitch Marner shows the effect of some offseason cheat meals from time to time). The lowest listed weight ever was Ron Martin at 130, about 49% of Tryamkin and Boogaard's weight. That's about the same as my mom's weight compared to her dog, or a bull moose compared to me. Would you play hockey against a skating moose? I wouldn't.

Of course, Ron Martin never played against Derek Boogaard, but the smallest guy who's played in the last ten years is Kailer Yamamoto who's only 23 pounds heavier than Martin. Yamamoto is about 58% of the size of some of the refrigeraters that NHL teams have been trotting out in the past few years, which is more like me compared to a muskox or a manatee. Does that help visualize things? I don't think it does, mostly because I wouldn't have been able to tell you that a moose was about 60 pounds heavier than a muskox or a manatee, and the fact that they carry all that around on those stupid spindly legs is an offense to all things good and holy and also the cause of way too many traffic deaths when their centre of mass getss flipped up into someone's windshield.

But enough about moose.

Then there's Bobby Benson, who at 135 pounds was just a year older than the famously massive Howard McNamara, who at 240 pounds was just a little bit larger compared to Benson than Tryamkin is to Yamamoto. Using our infamous weight and height fudge, McNamara should be about 6'4", 280 pounds with today's nutritional standards, or would adjust to 300 pounds if he was 3 years older. He's also 20 pounds heavier than his next biggest contemporary, Harry Mummery.

I'd expect that today would be among the most diverse eras for player weights, since the lower limit for a small hockey player appears to be edging downwards from the peak of the 90s and 00s size arms race, and we've also reached the point where we can train a lots of 6'7" athletes to skate pretty confidently. McNamara, of course, is an absurd outlier for his time, but there aren't many more like him. Even his brother George is listed at around Mummery's size.

And of course, O'Neill, Byfuglien, Wellwood, Tkachuk or anyone else you want to make fun of, are literally as big as you want them to be for the purpose of a joke, so take your pick of various whales, vehicles or planets to compare them to.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
4,972
2,352
Let's say your favourite team had to run 3 lines of 6 guys each, using pre-NHL positions. I'm going to have a go at the Leafs:

Zach Hyman - Auston Matthews - William Nylander
Mitch Marner
TJ Brodie
Jake Muzzin

Alex Kerfoot- John Tavares - Wayne Simmonds
Morgan Rielly
Travis Dermott
Justin Holl

Ilya Mikheyev - Joe Thornton - Jason Spezza
Nic Petan
Mikko Lehtonen
Zach Bogosian​

A few things:
- Funny that I didn't end up using Morgan Rielly as my first unit rover. Ultimately, if I were to use a defenseman in every rover position (as offensive defensemen are commonly called "Rovers" today), I'd end up dressing 9 defensemen, and we'd be subjected to 3rd unit point Martin Marincin. No thanks. Mitch Marner plays a style that's pretty consistent with historical descriptions of what the rover actually did (except he can pass forward), and he's a better player than Rielly, though they'd both be valuable in a setup like this.
- Likewise, Brodie, Dermott and Lehtonen fit what I'd consider to be the analog of a cover point in the modern game, as nothing they do is particularly unusual for an NHL defenseman, but their skating and puckhandling are their best assets.
- Don't really care if Lehtonen or Sandin are the 3rd unit points. Sandin will be better as soon as (checks watch...)
- Considered getting kind of weird with it and using Lehtonen as the 3rd unit rover and the solid, mobile but offensively inept Pierre Engvall as 3rd unit cover point, but I went with Petan instead, who plays like Marner except he's not very good. Maybe the rover role would be more suitable for him than he currently is as an NHL forward.

This was actually kind of challenging...it's almost like the current team isn't set up this way.

Anyone want to try their team?
 
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RustyRazor

né Selfish Man
Mar 9, 2004
1,886
1,497
PNW
I'll give it a go...

Zucker - Crosby - Kapanen
Matheson
Letang
Dumoulin

Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Blueger
Marino
Petterson

Aston-Reese - Jankowski - Tanev
McCann
Joseph
Ceci

That third grouping is "cover your eyes awful"
 
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tinyzombies

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
16,826
2,338
Montreal, QC, Canada
Let's say your favourite team had to run 3 lines of 6 guys each, using pre-NHL positions. I'm going to have a go at the Leafs:

Zach Hyman - Auston Matthews - William Nylander
Mitch Marner
TJ Brodie
Jake Muzzin

Alex Kerfoot- John Tavares - Wayne Simmonds
Morgan Rielly
Travis Dermott
Justin Holl

Ilya Mikheyev - Joe Thornton - Jason Spezza
Nic Petan
Mikko Lehtonen
Zach Bogosian​

A few things:
- Funny that I didn't end up using Morgan Rielly as my first unit rover. Ultimately, if I were to use a defenseman in every rover position (as offensive defensemen are commonly called "Rovers" today), I'd end up dressing 9 defensemen, and we'd be subjected to 3rd unit point Martin Marincin. No thanks. Mitch Marner plays a style that's pretty consistent with historical descriptions of what the rover actually did (except he can pass forward), and he's a better player than Rielly, though they'd both be valuable in a setup like this.
- Likewise, Brodie, Dermott and Lehtonen fit what I'd consider to be the analog of a cover point in the modern game, as nothing they do is particularly unusual for an NHL defenseman, but their skating and puckhandling are their best assets.
- Don't really care if Lehtonen or Sandin are the 3rd unit points. Sandin will be better as soon as (checks watch...)
- Considered getting kind of weird with it and using Lehtonen as the 3rd unit rover and the solid, mobile but offensively inept Pierre Engvall as 3rd unit cover point, but I went with Petan instead, who plays like Marner except he's not very good. Maybe the rover role would be more suitable for him than he currently is as an NHL forward.

This was actually kind of challenging...it's almost like the current team isn't set up this way.

Anyone want to try their team?


Did they still have the two dmen who just sat back and tried to throw hipchecks like a few years later?
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
4,972
2,352
Did they still have the two dmen who just sat back and tried to throw hipchecks like a few years later?
I feel like I had some information in the back of my brain about who invented the hip check and when, but it's gone and I can't find it. It certainly isn't a natural thing that you'd fall back on if you were about to run into a guy and didn't know what you were doing.

My thinking is that the layered formation of the point and cover point, plus the lack of a forward pass to worry about suggests that the cover point would have been more concerned with man-to-man defense, while the point man had to be a little more situationally aware to pick up the next guy.
But you'd probably get a better answer if you looked into Victorian era rugby strategy, and I'm sure there's something written about that somewhere.
 
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tinyzombies

Registered User
Dec 24, 2002
16,826
2,338
Montreal, QC, Canada
I feel like I had some information in the back of my brain about who invented the hip check and when, but it's gone and I can't find it. It certainly isn't a natural thing that you'd fall back on if you were about to run into a guy and didn't know what you were doing.

My thinking is that the layered formation of the point and cover point, plus the lack of a forward pass to worry about suggests that the cover point would have been more concerned with man-to-man defense, while the point man had to be a little more situationally aware to pick up the next guy.
But you'd probably get a better answer if you looked into Victorian era rugby strategy, and I'm sure there's something written about that somewhere.

I would think the rover would be like an F1 on the forecheck and steer the rusher into violence, the last dman being the absolute brute who finishes the job after the rusher has been forced into a corner.

In that case, Montreal could be:

Tatar - Kotkaniemi - Gallagher
Danault
Chariot
Weber

Toffoli - Suzuki - Anderson
Drouin
Petry
Edmundson

Perry - Evans - Armia
Byron
Kulak
Romanov​
 
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Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
Dec 10, 2007
23,612
5,493
ATL
375px-Dice_%28typical_role_playing_game_dice%29.jpg

I now believe in my first conspiracy theory. I think the Flyers have been tanking since 1976. I don't believe it's possible that while other teams were making draft steals such as Hasek, Brett Hull, and Gilmour, or even good picks such as the 2 Pavels (Datsyuk and Bure) and McDavid that the best Flyers career player they could draft is Giroux (or whoever you like best since 1976). My D&D dice could draft better than their front office. ;)
 
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Dreakmur

Registered User
Mar 25, 2008
18,552
6,730
Orillia, Ontario
375px-Dice_%28typical_role_playing_game_dice%29.jpg

I now believe in my first conspiracy theory. I think the Flyers have been tanking since 1976. I don't believe it's possible that while other teams were making draft steals such as Hasek, Brett Hull, and Gilmour, or even good picks such as the 2 Pavels (Datsyuk and Bure) and McDavid that the best player they could draft is Giroux (or whoever you like best since 1976). My D&D dice could draft better than their front office. ;)

Looks like a few crits there!
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,130
6,428
I now believe in my first conspiracy theory. I think the Flyers have been tanking since 1976.
Tanking is the wrong word.

Since 1976 Philadelphia has made the playoffs 25 times and they have won 12 divisional titles. Pittsburgh has won only 9. The difference is Pittsburgh did tank to get slamdunk superstars. Philly traded away its 1st round pick (never a 1st overall) nine times to get players to remain competitive and not tank! And the best player they drafted was Peter Forsberg whom they traded along with another Philly 1st round pick and very good player Mike Ricci in order to get Eric friggin' Lindros, who had gone 1st overall to a tanking Quebec team.

Pittsburgh and Quebec know about tanking.

Philly fans would never put up with it. I am not a Philly fan but I have heard them described as demanding and rabid.
 

Say Hey Kid

it's better to burn out than to fade awa
Dec 10, 2007
23,612
5,493
ATL
While the Flyers have been inconsistent during his tenure, Giroux has been anything but. Season after season, Giroux continues to drive the Flyers’ offense while being a responsible two-way player. He’s made six All-Star teams and finished top five in MVP voting twice. Assuming health, the career-long Flyer will pass Bill Barber for second on the franchise’s all-time point list next season. He will likely retire as the second-best Flyers skater ever.

Rookie of the Year. Scoring title. League MVP. Forsberg has all of those on his mantle. Unfortunately for the Flyers, he won them all as a member of the Colorado Avalanche. Forsberg was the key piece in the trade that landed the Flyers Eric Lindros. Forsberg would return to the Flyers for parts of two seasons toward the end of his career but the organization missed out on the prime of arguably the greatest Swedish-born forward ever.
Top 10 NHL draft picks in Flyers history

... And the best player they drafted was Peter Forsberg ...
The best pick for the Flyers (not the Avs) was Giroux
 

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