ATD Chat Thread XVII

[Johnny Engine]

If I had to take a stab

1983 - 1909 - The Amateur Era, 1909 marks the NHA the first "high level" professional league
1909 - 1926 - The Split League Era
1926 - 1942 - Consolidation
1942 - 1967 - The Original Six
1967 - 1994 - The expansion era
1995 - 2005 - The Dead Puck Era
2005 - 2020 - The Modern Era

Mostly this, though as always when one tries to put boxes around something this fluid, there are a few things worth quibbling over:

- From 1983-1990, there were no teams in the NHL who were in their first 3 years of operation, while 1997 and 1998 were the only two seasons of the dead puck era where this was true. So while there's definitely a lot of sense in roping together an unbroken 26-year run of high scoring seasons, it's also a persistent myth that over-expansion caused the abundance of goals in the 80s. Canadiens1958 might have called 1967-1994 the "post-sponsorship era", and that explains a lot of things that stayed the same throughout. However, if you're splitting it in two, "The Chaos Era" is an apt tag for 1967-1979, and might I suggest "The Specialist Era" for 1980-1994? We have the least physically imposing generational talent ever prove that he didn't need to "fight his own battles" to succeed, Langway's two Norrises preceded two for Coffey, you had players like Meagher and Murray winning Selkes, and the all-time high water mark in fights coming in '88 courtesy of guys like Joey Kocur. I exaggerate, but did anyone do more than one job the whole time?
- If the NHL continues to get softer and more dependent on puck skills, there will be two natural starting points. In 2017 you have a full season from McDavid, and a great rookie cohort with Matthews, Aho, Marner and Laine. 2020 gives us some time off and possibly disrupted seasons for a couple of years to come - so it's possible that things will get really different from here on out. If either of those, what are we going to call the last 10-15 years? "Modern" has no real meaning unless you're talking about TS Eliot and Igor Stravinsky, "Post-lockout" isn't very descriptive and "Cap" only works if the cap goes away soon. I personally like "The Track Meet Era", as it's pretty descriptive of a not-terribly-skilled brand of hockey that mostly failed to produce much more offense than the Dead Puck Era. Perhaps we might find ourselves trying to contextualize Crosby and Jagr's numbers against Lafreniere and Wright, and we'll just conclude that the puck stayed dead until 2017 or later.

 

[ImporterExporter]

@Habsfan18 @tinyzombies

A good friend of mine buys and sells sports cards/memorabilia in pretty large quantities.

He's the one I purchased the Bobby Orr signed 16x20 and Delvecchio jersey from. Well when I went over to pick those things up today he said "hey man, I know you're really into hockey, especially the old timers, hang on a second, got a surprise for you"....

Gave me, for free, a Doug Harvey, game worn jersey card that he pulled last year out of a repack set. It's a 1/1 (only 1 in existence) with, what looks to be a faded swatch of jersey. I don't care if that thing was worth a grand. So stoked.

There are some quality people left in this world.

 

[Habsfan18]

Wow, those are some incredible collectible pieces. Awesome stuff, especially that Harvey game-worn swatch. Only one in existence, as well. Congratulations!

 

[ImporterExporter]

Wow, those are some incredible collectible pieces. Awesome stuff, especially that Harvey game-worn swatch. Only one in existence, as well. Congratulations!

Thanks sir!

He was pretty much doing a fire sale of stuff that had been laying around for a while so I got the Orr for $60, the Delvecchio jersey for $50 and the Harvey for nothing. Very fortunate to get that stuff for half of what he had been listing it for. I really have been just conserving the finances and being responsible especially during these wacky times. Then he threw up some lots on FB I couldn't resist. I've always wanted a larger sized, signed "the goal" photo. Just need a solid frame for that bad boy now. The Vech auto is on a standard Wings jersey so it's not quite as "cool" as the Harvey IMO but it will display nice regardless and I've got a soft spot for my mom's side of the family who derived from near Florence Italy.

I figured you and zombies especially would think the Harvey pretty cool. Honestly I don't even care about the value. It's Doug Harvey! 99% of people down here wouldn't know who I was talking about anyway haha.

 

[Habsfan18]

This particular item is my pride and joy, memorabilia-wise. I have quite a few odds and ends in my collection, not counting the books/THN’s/magazines etc..

If anyone is interested in seeing this kind of stuff, I’d be glad to post more pictures.

1960-1961 Montreal Canadiens team photo, signed by almost the entire roster. I missed the Rocket by one damn year. The reason the Cup is in the photo is because it was taken at the beginning of the year, when the Habs were the defending champs. It was normal back then for teams to pose with their cup at the beginning of the new season.

Autographs include: Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey, Jacques Plante, Henri Richard, Bernie Geoffrion, Dickie Moore, Frank Selke, Toe Blake, Ralph Backstrom, Jean-Guy Talbot, Don Marshall, Bill Hicke, Marcel Bonin, Phil Goyette, Tom Johnson, Claude Provost, Albert Langlois, and Bob Turner.

 

[Habsfan18]

Thanks sir!

He was pretty much doing a fire sale of stuff that had been laying around for a while so I got the Orr for $60, the Delvecchio jersey for $50 and the Harvey for nothing. Very fortunate to get that stuff for half of what he had been listing it for. I really have been just conserving the finances and being responsible especially during these wacky times. Then he threw up some lots on FB I couldn't resist. I've always wanted a larger sized, signed "the goal" photo. Just need a solid frame for that bad boy now. The Vech auto is on a standard Wings jersey so it's not quite as "cool" as the Harvey IMO but it will display nice regardless and I've got a soft spot for my mom's side of the family who derived from near Florence Italy.

I figured you and zombies especially would think the Harvey pretty cool. Honestly I don't even care about the value. It's Doug Harvey! 99% of people down here wouldn't know who I was talking about anyway haha.

That really is great stuff bud, hold onto those! Great items to have for those of us who love and appreciate the history of this great game. And those prices are incredible. Hell, I’d love to get one of those “The Goal” signed photos and have almost bought one a few times. I just couldn’t get past the thought of having to put something Bruins related up on my mancave walls.

 

[tinyzombies]

1893-1909	1909-26	1926-42	1942-67	1967-80	1980-95	1995-2005	2005-2020
Tier I	Howe	Orr	Lemieux	Crosby, McDavid, Price
Tier II	Stuart	Taylor, Lalonde, Malone, Nighbor, Vezina, Benedict	Morenz, Shore, Cook, Conacher, Gardiner	MRichard, Harvey, Beliveau, Hull, Kelly, Plante, Hall, Sawchuk	Lafleur, Mikita, Clarke	Gretzky, Bourque, Potvin, Fetisov, Messier, Chelios, Bossy	Jagr, Lindros, Lidstrom, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Forsberg, Pronger	Ovechkin, Pronger, Hedman, Matthews
Tier III	Bowie	Cleghorn, Denneny, Gerard, Phillips, H.Smith, MJohnson, Cameron	N.Stewart, Clancy, Seibert, Boucher, Clapper, Joliat, CJohnson, SHowe, LConacher	Lindsay, HRichard, Schmidt, Apps, FMahovlich, Kennedy, Lach, Brimsek, Durnan, Broda	Robinson, Trottier, Park, TEsposito, Kharlamov, Dionne, Salming, Dryden, Tretiak, Savard, Lapointe	Coffey, Makarov, Stevens, Roy, Bure	Hull, Yzerman, Sakic, Fedorov, Hull	Weber, Chara, St.Louis, Iginla, Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, Tavares, Kovalchuk, Bobrovsky, Rinne, Rask, Lundqvist, Karlsson, Toews, Keith, Doughty, Kopitar, Bergeron, Benn, Vasilevskiy, Burns, Thornton, Giordano, Marchand
Tier IV	Jackson, Mantha	Pilote, Horton, Gadsby, Geoffrion, Bathgate, Moore, Quackenbush, Blake, Firsov, Stewart, Bucyk, DelvecchioUllman, Abel, D.Bentley	Vasiliev, Mikhailov, Parent	MacInnis, Kurri, Selanne, Howe, Langway	Leetch, Niedermayer	Sedins, Perry, Getzlaf, Marleau

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[ImporterExporter]

This particular item is my pride and joy, memorabilia-wise. I have quite a few odds and ends in my collection, not counting the books/THN’s/magazines etc..

If anyone is interested in seeing this kind of stuff, I’d be glad to post more pictures.

View attachment 348762

1960-1961 Montreal Canadiens team photo, signed by almost the entire roster. I missed the Rocket by one damn year. The reason the Cup is in the photo is because it was taken at the beginning of the year, when the Habs were the defending champs. It was normal back then for teams to pose with their cup at the beginning of the new season.

Autographs include: Jean Beliveau, Doug Harvey, Jacques Plante, Henri Richard, Bernie Geoffrion, Dickie Moore, Frank Selke, Toe Blake, Ralph Backstrom, Jean-Guy Talbot, Don Marshall, Bill Hicke, Marcel Bonin, Phil Goyette, Tom Johnson, Claude Provost, Albert Langlois, and Bob Turner.

That is absolutely incredible. And honestly, I'm so glad to see it in the hands of someone who's a true fan of Montreal/hockey and not just a person who has a shitload of money to throw around using these types of historical pieces as an ego boost or notch on the belt.

That really is great stuff bud, hold onto those! Great items to have for those of us who love and appreciate the history of this great game. And those prices are incredible. Hell, I’d love to get one of those “The Goal” signed photos and have almost bought one a few times. I just couldn’t get past the thought of having to put something Bruins related up on my mancave walls.

Haha I totally understand!

Hockey is the one sport where I collect from all teams/all eras. It's a modest collection certainly but the amount of information and knowledge I've gained, in large part because of the ATD/HoH forums has really given me such an appreciate for hockey players in general and the game itself.

Bobby Orr's "The Goal" is just so iconic. One of those pictures you hang in a nice frame and it just pops. I've even considered (if I can find the right photo/auto) adding a Clarke piece to my collection. That's very tough given I pretty much loathe Philly sports but his smile w/ a bunch of missing teeth is the epitome of old time hockey!

 

[Habsfan18]

That is absolutely incredible. And honestly, I'm so glad to see it in the hands of someone who's a true fan of Montreal/hockey and not just a person who has a shitload of money to throw around using these types of historical pieces as an ego boost or notch on the belt.

Haha I totally understand!

Hockey is the one sport where I collect from all teams/all eras. It's a modest collection certainly but the amount of information and knowledge I've gained, in large part because of the ATD/HoH forums has really given me such an appreciate for hockey players in general and the game itself.

Bobby Orr's "The Goal" is just so iconic. One of those pictures you hang in a nice frame and it just pops. I've even considered (if I can find the right photo/auto) adding a Clarke piece to my collection. That's very tough given I pretty much loathe Philly sports but his smile w/ a bunch of missing teeth is the epitome of old time hockey!

Thanks man, and I agree about collectors. Some people with a crap ton of money (which I can assure you I do not have lol) accumulate valuable shit just because they can, even if they don’t have a true appreciation of what they’re actually in possession of. I’d much rather the really neat pieces be in the collection of those with a true appreciation and love for hockey and its history.

I’m with you about collecting from all team’s and eras. I’m partly joking about the Bruins, because I LOVE Bobby Orr and respect their history and many of the players, but a part of me still has the toughest time with the thought of displaying anything Bruins related, because it is “them” and I am a diehard Habs fan after all lol. Even as a lover of hockey history the thought still makes me feel a little gross. Much like you with Bobby Clarke and the Flyers, I’m sure.

But again, kudos for those awesome pieces man. I’m happy that they’re in your collection. I know how much you love and appreciate hockey’s history.

I’ll post these two as I’m sure you’ll find them neat as a Penguins fan. My dad has been a Pens fan since the early 80’s, so I’ll always have an appreciation and soft spot for the franchise. And Mario Lemieux is my favorite historical player, along with Patrick Roy.

 

[ResilientBeast]

1893-1909	1909-26	1926-42	1942-67	1967-80	1980-95	1995-2005	2005-2020
Tier I	Howe	Orr	Lemieux	Crosby, McDavid, Price
Tier II	Stuart	Taylor, Lalonde, Malone, Nighbor, Vezina, Benedict	Morenz, Shore, Cook, Conacher, Gardiner	MRichard, Harvey, Beliveau, Hull, Kelly, Plante, Hall, Sawchuk	Lafleur, Mikita, Clarke	Gretzky, Bourque, Potvin, Fetisov, Messier, Chelios, Bossy	Jagr, Lindros, Lidstrom, Hasek, Roy, Brodeur, Forsberg, Pronger	Ovechkin, Pronger, Hedman, Matthews
Tier III	Bowie	Cleghorn, Denneny, Gerard, Phillips, H.Smith, MJohnson, Cameron	N.Stewart, Clancy, Seibert, Boucher, Clapper, Joliat, CJohnson, SHowe, LConacher	Lindsay, HRichard, Schmidt, Apps, FMahovlich, Kennedy, Lach, Brimsek, Durnan, Broda	Robinson, Trottier, Park, TEsposito, Kharlamov, Dionne, Salming, Dryden, Tretiak, Savard, Lapointe	Coffey, Makarov, Stevens, Roy, Bure	Hull, Yzerman, Sakic, Fedorov, Hull	Weber, Chara, St.Louis, Iginla, Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, Tavares, Kovalchuk, Bobrovsky, Rinne, Rask, Lundqvist, Karlsson, Toews, Keith, Doughty, Kopitar, Bergeron, Benn, Vasilevskiy, Burns, Thornton, Giordano, Marchand
Tier IV	Jackson, Mantha	Pilote, Horton, Gadsby, Geoffrion, Bathgate, Moore, Quackenbush, Blake, Firsov, Stewart, Bucyk, DelvecchioUllman, Abel, D.Bentley	Vasiliev, Mikhailov, Parent	MacInnis, Kurri, Selanne, Howe, Langway	Leetch, Niedermayer	Sedins, Perry, Getzlaf, Marleau

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Huh?

 

[Johnny Engine]

Huh?

The table is very broken.

 

[ResilientBeast]

No need to apologize at all my friend. These are crazy times and I know you have a wife, young child and were heading back to work amid all the COVID stuff.

Great news on the COVID front though. Since you're back out in the world working...

Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is 'very rare,' WHO says

Just reading through before voting....

That claim is being met with fairly widespread skepticism so we shouldn't celebrate yet

 

[ImporterExporter]

Just reading through before voting....

That claim is being met with fairly widespread skepticism so we shouldn't celebrate yet

Not celebrating at all. Just some level of positive news IMO considering:

Common sense, IMO, would tell us that if millions upon millions were carrying this virus silently, which has been claimed by all the same experts for months, then why do we not have massive (I'm talking tens of millions) hospitalizations? Why aren't there 2, 3, 4 x the number of deaths? The US is a powder keg (happens every 4 years ironically) with thousands of people heading to protests, riots, etc. Millions are out and about based on just opening your eyes especially now that the weather has permanently turned to warmer climate.

I've never believed the level of hysteria over the asymptomatic aspect of this thing. Tens of millions of people in the US, at least, didn't practice social distancing at any point since March. There are just too many people who didn't adhere the guidelines that if these same people were silent carriers, then why aren't the infected and # of deaths far more significant? The numbers simply do not add up.

The WHO is the same org that was very staunch in their opinion that people should stay away from others specifically due to asymptomatic transfers. Now the same group of people is reversing course. And why? Because unlike jumping to conclusions at the outset of a pandemic, they've had months to gather data and make stronger conclusions than they could have logically or scientifically made in March or April. Unless of course people believe the WHO is catering to the orange blowhard, which seems...unlikely.

Just my opinion. I've got zero issue with staying away from people and if others feel scared or more pessimistic, I'm not going to discredit their feelings or make them feel uncomfortable. I just happen to think the entire virus was overblown, at least to some degree. It's disproportionately impacting the same age groups that other major viruses do. I've got every PA state health report from March to last week. Thankfully public access to these records is fairly easy to get your hands on here and the numbers paint a pretty telling picture at who is being impacted.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Not celebrating at all. Just some level of positive news IMO considering:

Common sense, IMO, would tell us that if millions upon millions were carrying this virus silently, which has been claimed by all the same experts for months, then why do we not have massive (I'm talking tens of millions) hospitalizations? Why aren't there 2, 3, 4 x the number of deaths? The US is a powder keg (happens every 4 years ironically) with thousands of people heading to protests, riots, etc. Millions are out and about based on just opening your eyes especially now that the weather has permanently turned to warmer climate.

I've never believed the level of hysteria over the asymptomatic aspect of this thing. Tens of millions of people in the US, at least, didn't practice social distancing at any point since March. There are just too many people who didn't adhere the guidelines that if these same people were silent carriers, then why aren't the infected and # of deaths far more significant? The numbers simply do not add up.

The WHO is the same org that was very staunch in their opinion that people should stay away from others specifically due to asymptomatic transfers. Now the same group of people is reversing course. And why? Because unlike jumping to conclusions at the outset of a pandemic, they've had months to gather data and make stronger conclusions than they could have logically or scientifically made in March or April. Unless of course people believe the WHO is catering to the orange blowhard, which seems...unlikely.

Just my opinion. I've got zero issue with staying away from people and if others feel scared or more pessimistic, I'm not going to discredit their feelings or make them feel uncomfortable. I just happen to think the entire virus was overblown, at least to some degree. It's disproportionately impacting the same age groups that other major viruses do. I've got every PA state health report from March to last week. Thankfully public access to these records is fairly easy to get your hands on here and the numbers paint a pretty telling picture at who is being impacted.

You can only have as many positive tests, as tests you administer.

 

[ResilientBeast]

So I'm preparing to ramp back up my researching.

I was going to finish that positional database I started (1909-1926 for now all 3 leagues). I'll save all the gamelogs and store them on GDrive for future bio building.

I'm also going to transcribe the box scores since while I'm doing positions I may as well.

I know we discussed making "consolidated" all star teams and I was wondering the validity of reading the game reports and taking what they say somewhat literally.

Tabulating who was the
"star of the game" or "pick of the visitors" etc the most amount of times as some sort of gauge of value/skill etc and using that as a proxy for the best at each position.

Anyone take issue with that sort of method at least as a jumping off point?

 

[seventieslord]

So I'm preparing to ramp back up my researching.

I was going to finish that positional database I started (1909-1926 for now all 3 leagues). I'll save all the gamelogs and store them on GDrive for future bio building.

I'm also going to transcribe the box scores since while I'm doing positions I may as well.

I know we discussed making "consolidated" all star teams and I was wondering the validity of reading the game reports and taking what they say somewhat literally.

Tabulating who was the
"star of the game" or "pick of the visitors" etc the most amount of times as some sort of gauge of value/skill etc and using that as a proxy for the best at each position.

Anyone take issue with that sort of method at least as a jumping off point?

I think that you'd be re-doing a lot of Iain Fyffe's research if you do a position database, though I say that fully aware that he's never shared the complete database to the rest of us.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think that you'd be re-doing a lot of Iain Fyffe's research if you do a position database, though I say that fully aware that he's never shared the complete database to the rest of us.

Fair, the goal would be an open database for everyone here or lurking.

 

[seventieslord]

Fair, the goal would be an open database for everyone here or lurking.

Then I really hope I can convince him to share it rather than making someone else do the work all over again.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Then I really hope I can convince him to share it rather than making someone else do the work all over again.

Do your best, I'll still gather the game summaries so we have them for bio building etc.

Just won't go through with pulling the positions at least in bulk

 

[The Macho King]

Mostly this, though as always when one tries to put boxes around something this fluid, there are a few things worth quibbling over:

- From 1983-1990, there were no teams in the NHL who were in their first 3 years of operation, while 1997 and 1998 were the only two seasons of the dead puck era where this was true. So while there's definitely a lot of sense in roping together an unbroken 26-year run of high scoring seasons, it's also a persistent myth that over-expansion caused the abundance of goals in the 80s. Canadiens1958 might have called 1967-1994 the "post-sponsorship era", and that explains a lot of things that stayed the same throughout. However, if you're splitting it in two, "The Chaos Era" is an apt tag for 1967-1979, and might I suggest "The Specialist Era" for 1980-1994? We have the least physically imposing generational talent ever prove that he didn't need to "fight his own battles" to succeed, Langway's two Norrises preceded two for Coffey, you had players like Meagher and Murray winning Selkes, and the all-time high water mark in fights coming in '88 courtesy of guys like Joey Kocur. I exaggerate, but did anyone do more than one job the whole time?
- If the NHL continues to get softer and more dependent on puck skills, there will be two natural starting points. In 2017 you have a full season from McDavid, and a great rookie cohort with Matthews, Aho, Marner and Laine. 2020 gives us some time off and possibly disrupted seasons for a couple of years to come - so it's possible that things will get really different from here on out. If either of those, what are we going to call the last 10-15 years? "Modern" has no real meaning unless you're talking about TS Eliot and Igor Stravinsky, "Post-lockout" isn't very descriptive and "Cap" only works if the cap goes away soon. I personally like "The Track Meet Era", as it's pretty descriptive of a not-terribly-skilled brand of hockey that mostly failed to produce much more offense than the Dead Puck Era. Perhaps we might find ourselves trying to contextualize Crosby and Jagr's numbers against Lafreniere and Wright, and we'll just conclude that the puck stayed dead until 2017 or later.

I don't know if you can call an era where Hal Gill was still used as a shutdown player as a "Track Meet" era. I think you can probably extend the DPE considerably - the scoring increases immediately post-lockout are mainly due to increases in PP opportunities that steadily diminished until the past couple of years, and we had still had Art Ross winners with sub 100 points (including one with sub 90). I almost want to call it the "parity" era, or "forced parity" era, but the Blackhawks and Pens winning three cups a piece might cut against that narrative.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I don't know if you can call an era where Hal Gill was still used as a shutdown player as a "Track Meet" era. I think you can probably extend the DPE considerably - the scoring increases immediately post-lockout are mainly due to increases in PP opportunities that steadily diminished until the past couple of years, and we had still had Art Ross winners with sub 100 points (including one with sub 90). I almost want to call it the "parity" era, or "forced parity" era, but the Blackhawks and Pens winning three cups a piece might cut against that narrative.

Fair point on Gill, though I think you can find players who cut against the narrative in most eras. When I talk about the "Track Meet Era", I'm definitely not talking about increased scoring, but more about the variant of dump-and-chase that was the unintended consequence of removing the red line, and I think a player like Gill has a place in that style of game as long as he can pin guys into the end boards and wing the puck out into the neutral zone.

Newfoundland's last COVID patient just recovered. We're at zero active cases.

 

[Elvis P]

I realize this is one of the worst sites on the net and no one would ever use it for serious purposes, I just had to mention this. Ranker has Ryan McDonagh ranked as the 14th best Ranger of all time ahead of guys such as Vanbiesbrouck, Gretzky, Greschner, Howell, and Walt Tkachuk.

 

[The Macho King]

I mean - the guys ahead of them all made their names on other franchises and basically took a retirement tour in NY (beezer the opposite, but still) except for Tkaczuk, who is like... fine? I don't think it'd be off to put McDonagh over Tkaczuk though.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I mean - the guys ahead of them all made their names on other franchises and basically took a retirement tour in NY (beezer the opposite, but still) except for Tkaczuk, who is like... fine? I don't think it'd be off to put McDonagh over Tkaczuk though.

Harry Howell > Ryan McDonagh and I don't think it's close. I would take McDonagh ahead of Greshner though

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just reading through before voting....

That claim is being met with fairly widespread skepticism so we shouldn't celebrate yet

I realize this is old news, but the problem was that the media was too lazy and/or stupid to attempt to learn the difference between "asymptomatic" and "presymptomatic." It does seem to be true that the infected who NEVER exhibit symptoms usually don't transmit it. But it also seems that most superspreader events were caused by people who didn't have symptoms yet but would later develop them.