ATD Chat Thread XVII

[The Macho King]

Harry Howell > Ryan McDonagh and I don't think it's close. I would take McDonagh ahead of Greshner though

Eh - Howell won a Norris against no competition, but yeah maybe him over McDonagh.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I realize this is old news, but the problem was that the media was too lazy and/or stupid to attempt to learn the difference between "asymptomatic" and "presymptomatic." It does seem to be true that the infected who NEVER exhibit symptoms usually don't transmit it. But it also seems that most superspreader events were caused by people who didn't have symptoms yet but would later develop them.

Also the crap ton of doctors thinking like idiot savants and mistaking absence of evidence for evidence of absence and the related risk-asymmetries; a phenomenon still largely ongoing e.g. on Twitter. In their world, until we have proof that something is dangerous, it's not dangerous or at least we shouldn't protect ourselves against it. Waiting for proof that masks work was the most unbelievable example.

As for asymptomatic/presymptomatic, probably another case of mistaking absence of evidence for evidence of absence. "We have no evidence that presymptomatic carriers can infect other people" or other such statements. With this mentality, there is no need to distinguish between the two.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Also the crap ton of doctors thinking like idiot savants and mistaking absence of evidence for evidence of absence and the related risk-asymmetries; a phenomenon still largely ongoing e.g. on Twitter. In their world, until we have proof that something is dangerous, it's not dangerous or at least we shouldn't protect ourselves against it. Waiting for proof that masks work was the most unbelievable example.

As for asymptomatic/presymptomatic, probably another case of mistaking absence of evidence for evidence of absence. "We have no evidence that presymptomatic carriers can infect other people" or other such statements. With this mentality, there is no need to distinguish between the two.

The health organizations flat out lied about masks in March, and they did so because it was to the benefit of public health to make such a lie. There simply weren't enough masks for everyone, and the greatest benefit to public health was to save the masks for healthcare workers as much as possible. Not just to protect healthcare workers themselves, but also to protect anyone they came in contact with. Fauci basically confirmed this on at least two occasions by now. Telling people not to wear masks back in March was all about rationing a limited resource.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The health organizations flat out lied about masks in March, and they did so because it was to the benefit of public health to make such a lie. There simply weren't enough masks for everyone, and the greatest benefit to public health was to save the masks for healthcare workers as much as possible. Not just to protect healthcare workers themselves, but also to protect anyone they came in contact with. Fauci basically confirmed this on at least two occasions by now. Telling people not to wear masks back in March was all about rationing a limited resource.

Complete horseshit excuse IMO. I knew that, but it's grossly infantilizing to the population. Just tell them to make masks of their own (which is what everyone is doing right now). Cut a T-shirt and tie it around your head. Make a few videos of celebrities doing it, problem solved within 3 days. The benefit of mask wearing is not just for the individual, but it has a generalizable effect. Doesn't just reduce probabilities from your own mask, but from the mask of others as well. Which reduces the pandemic and thus the danger to health care workers.

Also, lying leads to loss of credibility (and rightfully so).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Complete horseshit excuse IMO. I knew that, but it's grossly infantilizing to the population. Just tell them to make masks of their own (which is what everyone is doing right now). Cut a T-shirt and tie it around your head. Make a few videos of celebrities doing it, problem solved within 3 days. The benefit of mask wearing is not just for the individual, but it has a generalizable effect. Doesn't just reduce probabilities from your own mask, but from the mask of others as well.

Also, lying leads to loss of credibility (and rightfully so).

I have mixed feelings. I mean, you're absolutely right that we should have been making our own masks months earlier than we did. But the downside is that, as Fauci said, the general public would also buy up the real masks that really should have been saved for medical workers.

There should have been a coordinated international response to immediately ban sale of medical grade masks to the general public during the beginning of the pandemic, as well as severely ramping up production, but that obviously didn't happen. The whole start of the thing was a major clusterf***, from China lying about the dangers posed by the outbreak to hoard medical equipment there, to the rest of the world's more or less wishful thinking that it would never hit them.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I have mixed feelings. I mean, you're absolutely right that we should have been making our own masks months earlier than we did. But the downside is that, as Fauci said, the general public would also buy up the real masks that really should have been saved for medical workers.

There should have been a coordinated international response to immediately ban sale of medical grade masks to the general public during the beginning of the pandemic, as well as severely ramping up production, but that obviously didn't happen. The whole start of the thing was a major clusterf***, from China lying about the dangers posed by the outbreak to hoard medical equipment there, to the rest of the world's more or less wishful thinking that it would never hit them.

I find it very strange that they feared people buying the real masks, when their need is in the order of millions of masks a day. You don't buy such shipments from Amazon.com.

Also, I feel the urge to say I was hoarding food back in february and preparing for the pandemic, from the God-sent luck that we in North America had a 3 months head start to prepare. So the lack of masks is just another layer added to their incompetence.

Just in Quebec, the Public Health director went to a Conference/vacation in Morocco in EARLY MARCH (from Feb 26 to March 8). That means he came back to Quebec from a plane in March 8, and he didn't have a private jet. This is insane. Most of these people are total incompetents that have no intuition for risk-management. Pure egg heads academic types with no connection to reality who live beyond their intellectual means via the social prestige that they enjoy. He was the type to lie about masks too. And I should trust their lying strategy in the name of a greater interest for the public good? I just don't trust them. If I did, then maybe I'd accept it.

China lying is what China does. China and the USA have been in an economic war for a few years already. They won't throw any gift at anyone. When you shut down a city of millions of people (Wuhan), that should have been an extremely strong signal to start being paranoid.

 

[Dreakmur]

I find it very strange that they feared people buying the real masks...

You didn't notice the inexplicable run on toilet paper?

 

[BenchBrawl]

You didn't notice the inexplicable run on toilet paper?

I questioned whether government really compete with citizens to buy masks given the astronomical quantity they need. Maybe they do but how hard can it be to forbid sales to the public? Governments aren't interested in packages of 100 masks. They want shipments of millions.

The run on toilet paper came from a few videos of people fighting over it and then it blew up everywhere. Unsure if the item was random or not.

 

[Dreakmur]

I questioned whether government really compete with citizens to buy masks given the astronomical quantity they need. Maybe they do but how hard can it be to forbid sales to the public? Governments aren't interested in packages of 100 masks. They want shipments of millions.

The government can gets masks mad if they want, but what about citizens in high risk categories? Those are the people that needed access to publicly available masks.

The run on toilet paper came from a few videos of people fighting over it and then it blew up everywhere. Unsure if the item was random or not.

Yes, it was random, but the government announcing that a high demand/low supply item is necessary, ensures that item gets hoarded by those who may not even need them.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Complete horseshit excuse IMO. I knew that, but it's grossly infantilizing to the population. Just tell them to make masks of their own (which is what everyone is doing right now). Cut a T-shirt and tie it around your head. Make a few videos of celebrities doing it, problem solved within 3 days. The benefit of mask wearing is not just for the individual, but it has a generalizable effect. Doesn't just reduce probabilities from your own mask, but from the mask of others as well. Which reduces the pandemic and thus the danger to health care workers.

Also, lying leads to loss of credibility (and rightfully so).

The more you try and control nature the more nature pushes back.

I've said since March the biggest impact on "society" from this nonsense is/will be psychological.

Just observing people, you see how many are so willing to believe what they're told from day 1. It hits the inter webs, the cable news cycles, local news, 24/7. Boom. They're panicked.

Zero critical thinking. Zero chance for the true doctors and medical professionals to do RESEARCH, TESTING, etc, etc. But right away, it was OMG, this thing travels 500 miles in the air. It lingers on surfaces for 3 weeks. It spreads through every orifice of your body. Every day there were dozens of new claims, media outlets just dropping napalm on the masses. Info overload. Then of course you had the "asymptomatic" BS.

You know why it's BS?

One, and this should be the most obvious.

If there are tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people that have COVID, without exhibiting ANY symptom, then how in the hell is ANYONE saying COVID (f*** off) has a fatality rate worth even mentioning? This virus is already killing, mostly, the old and the sick. Not exactly unique. That may seem cold hearted but if you actually place life and death on equal footing, it's the nature of the universe. It's the progression of existence/the end.

The people (and I mean doctors, media) who are spreading the asymptomatic angle to this should be given instant credentials into politics. The entire premise of asymptomatic transfer eliminates the severity of this/any virus. You can't simply divide deaths by confirmed cases and make a legit scientific declaration without including the many millions you are saying exist as "healthy carriers" of the virus. It's hilarious and quite sad actually, more human beings haven't mentioned/considered this. You want to use science and math and yet purposely alter the lens in which people "look through". And the truly sad aspect is that most people are simply lazy. You can't have hundreds of millions of asymptomatic carriers and then not use a ball park figure from that group as it pertains to cases/deaths.

Two, I simply do not believe, medically you can have tens or hundreds of millions of people who have this horrific virus in their own bodies, with absolutely zero effect contrary to normal living. It's total bullshit IMO. This is about control and hearkens back to what you and TDMM said about keeping people off the streets/protecting limited resources. It had very little to do with keeping people "safe". I get that most won't agree here and that's fine.

You want me to social distance and stay away from people? Fine. I've got ZERO issue with that. I'll gladly do it and have taken care to realize some people are scared and they don't want me near them. Plus I mostly hate people anyway so it's a win/win. You live in NYC or any major metro area where people are confined into extremely tight quarters? Great, I think masks are a fantastic line of defense. Not everyone lives in a major city. A lot of people don't even live in any city.

Where I draw the line is choice. When you start forcing people to wear articles of clothing you're going down the path of a Hitler to put it in a manner everyone can understand. If you're wearing a mask or a plastic bag on your head because you truly think it makes you safer and others safer, I've got no quarrel. I respect that way of thinking. But advocating for a society that forces everyone to conform to one size fits all defeats of the purpose of people being genetically unique. There is literally no point in humanity existing (another deep psycho dive) otherwise IMO.

Then you can get into conditioning human beings. Which is a sizable part of the pie as it relates to COVID.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Risk-asymmetry is clear: The downside to wearing a mask is small compared to the upside, especially whe nconsidering the generalizable effect (the mask of others protects others and so on). Also, when facing risks of a systemic and exponential nature, paranoïd self-protection is the best strategy for survival. Likewise, the upside of not taking measures is finite (saving money, etc), the downside of a systemic risk like a pandemic is infinite = human extinction.

As for any argument that we cannot always live in fear or be paranoïd or similar arguments, I've read today that there has only been 72 pandemics with more than 1000 deaths in recorded history. That's a long time. That means serious pandemics are rare, and should be something we are paranoïd about (taking measures against) when it sends threatening signals (and COVID-19 certainly qualified).

Also, as for keeping people off the streets, people assume it's the government that kept them off the street. In reality it's largely the virus that kept them off the streets, from their own fear or caution, grassroot style.

My main point is when we don't know, and the risk is systemic and has enormous downside, be paranoïd and take extreme precaution.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The thing I'm poorly trying to explain, is that pandemics can catch fire and skyrocket in consequences. Terrorism is the same.

Example: Some morons comparing the death toll from terrorism to death toll from lightning strikes as an argument that terrorism is nothing to be concerned about. First, the number of terrorist can increase a lot and quickly. Second and more important, a few attacks can catastrophically increase the death toll. No such thing with lightning strikes, ignoring the apocalyptic scenario of a total climate collapse.

If you look at the death tolls of pandemics in history, you see most of them is very low, then a few is catastrophically high. You need to react quickly because the danger is enormous if it's one of the bad ones, and you probably won't know that before it's too late.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where I draw the line is choice. When you start forcing people to wear articles of clothing you're going down the path of a Hitler .

I'm going to use this line the next time I'm told not to take my junk out in public.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Where I draw the line is choice. When you start forcing people to wear articles of clothing you're going down the path of a Hitler to put it in a manner everyone can understand.

You say all of that about the psychological impacts and then drop this line in there like it's nothing. No it's not remotely the same thing it's such a gross lack of critical thinking.

More people are dying daily in the US than did in 9/11.

Edit:

Where I draw the line is choice. When you start forcing people to wear articles of clothing you're going down the path of a Hitler to put it in a manner everyone can understand. If you're wearing a mask or a plastic bag on your head because you truly think it makes you safer and others safer, I've got no quarrel. I respect that way of thinking. But advocating for a society that forces everyone to conform to one size fits all defeats of the purpose of people being genetically unique. There is literally no point in humanity existing (another deep psycho dive) otherwise IMO.

Sorry what kind of faux intellectual bs is this. This is a literally meaningless statement.

 

[VanIslander]

99% of all COVID19 deaths in South Korea are over age 40.

The virus was all but stopped (2 or 3 cases a day) until govt restrictions were relaxed and young adults decided to go out to the bars en masse and Seoul now has about 50 new cases daily.

 

[ImporterExporter]

As I said, I don't expect people to get where I'm coming from, understand, or agree. To me, that's the best part of humanity but unfortunately we are hurdling towards the opposite end of the spectrum.

The path some of you choose only leads to our extinction IMO. You cannot control nature and human beings, are an aspect of nature. Super condensed energy, matter, moving along the plane of existence with everything else.

When you start trying to alter nature, by force, you will have irreparable damages as a counter.

You can literally see this playing out throughout all levels of society. Not just in one area but many.

Wearing a mask has absolutely nothing to do with safety and health IMO. If you have that narrow of a view of humanity, unfortunately, we will perish. Expand your mind beyond the physical realm. Stop putting life on a pedestal above death. If anything, our view on living and dying is ass backwards, scientifically speaking.

If you actually believe in science you would know our existence on earth is finite and insignificant in the grand scheme. Say you live to be 100. That is nothing. It doesn't even register on a time scale over the course of how long we believe this universe to have existed, which btw, we have no way of knowing and may never know. That doesn't mean we should try and stop learning and progressing, but human arrogance as it relates to control/power is staggering.

You must let human beings make their own choices and allow the chips to fall where they may. There will never be a Utopian existence. It is an antithesis to natural selection and the universal forces that are beyond our comprehension. The more you push against people who don't agree with you the more they will push back. Especially without civil discourse, which btw, doesn't really exists either. Turn on the news, internet, etc and that is abundantly clear. The old political forum that used to exist on this website was a perfect microcosm of what I am talking about.

We're freaking out over hundreds of thousands of people dying, in a world that has billions. And we're not even seeing large numbers of children, able bodied young people, 20, 30, 40 somethings keeling over in any number of significance, etc. People simply are unable to think critically anymore. It's a rush to instant judgement, largely borne out of emotion.

Is that an accident? No.

We live in a materialistic world, where we cling to life, we cling to possessions, because the alternative is scary.

It shouldn't be. We're just taught and conditioned to believe the alternative is terrifying.

Again, just my .02 and I understand that most think this ridiculous and that is 100% fine.

 

[ResilientBeast]

If you actually believe in science you would know our existence on earth is finite and insignificant in the grand scheme. Say you live to be 100. That is nothing. It doesn't even register on a time scale over the course of how long we believe this universe to have existed, which btw, we have no way of knowing and may never know. That doesn't mean we should try and stop learning and progressing, but human arrogance as it relates to control/power is staggering.

This is pure faux intellectualism and has nothing to with believing in science. My entire "religious" belief is founded on the belief that my existence is so infinitesimally improbable that I derive value and meaningfulness out of it. So to suggest that because I believe that I should resign myself to a virus is ludicrous.

Wearing a mask has absolutely nothing to do with safety and health IMO. If you have that narrow of a view of humanity, unfortunately, we will perish. Expand your mind beyond the physical realm. Stop putting life on a pedestal above death. If anything, our view on living and dying is ass backwards, scientifically speaking.

There's nothing scientific about these statements. First off, you're just flat out wrong. Masks have clearly shown scientifically to be beneficial in preventing the transfer of harmless viruses, diseases and bacteria.

Science - "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."
You're conflating your personal philosophy with science.

We're freaking out over hundreds of thousands of people dying, in a world that has billions. And we're not even seeing large numbers of children, able bodied young people, 20, 30, 40 somethings keeling over in any number of significance, etc. People simply are unable to think critically anymore. It's a rush to instant judgement, largely borne out of emotion.

Sure, the numbers compared to the scale of the planet are somewhat small, but I sure as hell don't want my loved ones to fall ill and die or at least have to suffer while fighting off the virus.

Edit: And despite being a sarcastic pessimistic guy I can do the bare minimum to help my fellow man which includes wearing a mask

 

[BenchBrawl]

FTR IE, I'm not saying government should impose mask-wearing. I don't trust governments at all. My point is an appeal to personal responsability, then people can do what they want. I think my arguments are even mathematically demonstrable statistically concerning exponential risks.

I'm not overly worried about COVID-19 right now, much more worried about the casualness with which people see the dangers of social unrest. The amount of hatred in society (but especially in the US) is alarming and unlike anything I have ever seen. All the signs are there and the alarm is ringing loudly. It's urgent people calm the fck down before this degenerates into a violent chaos (real chaos).

 

[VanIslander]

OMG.

I just heard from a guy in Seattle that their team will be called the Kraken, that it wasn't their first choice, but it's easier to secure the rights to and the marketing strategy is seen as "electric".

Ugh.

 

[Theokritos]

OMG.

I just heard from a guy in Seattle that their team will be called the Kraken, that it wasn't their first choice, but it's easier to secure the rights to and the marketing strategy is seen as "electric".

Ugh.

Well, the hats and other merchandise stuff will basically sell itself if they come up with a logo that looks good to non-hockey fans.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Well, the hats and other merchandise stuff will basically sell itself if they come up with a logo that looks good to non-hockey fans.

In my limited scope experience, in no particular order here are the sports brands that I've noticed being worn by obvious non fans:

- San Jose Sharks
- Georgetown Hoyas
- New York Yankees
- Florida Gators

So two schools with scary animal mascots, a pro hockey team with a similar scary animal, and a monogram that's been around for a century. There's also a certain level a team can hit (like the 90s Bulls) where everyone wants to be their fan, but I think that's different.

Not sure where I'm going with this.

 

[Habsfan18]

OMG.

I just heard from a guy in Seattle that their team will be called the Kraken, that it wasn't their first choice, but it's easier to secure the rights to and the marketing strategy is seen as "electric".

Ugh.

What a f***ing joke of a name that would be. Sounds like something a 16 year old kid would come up with to name a custom-team in NHL on PS4.

 

[ResilientBeast]

TBH personally I kinda like the name. I get that the Kraken has no regional affiliation to the region, but I just like the sound of it

 

[ResilientBeast]

What a f***ing joke of a name that would be. Sounds like something a 16 year old kid would come up with to name a custom-team in NHL on PS4.

Is it that much worse than the Las Vegas Golden Knights lol

Edit: And for the record I'm 25 thank you very much

 

[VanIslander]

No "Las" ... the Vegas Golden Knights.

Look at my avatar. It rocks.