ATD Chat Thread XVII

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BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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I was offered a one-year work contract extension yesterday, and just two hours ago officially received the work visa to do it. :) I can finally teach after having been laid off without pay since Feb. 21st. Yeah, I had to accept $500 a month less pay (biz is at 40% of preCOVID19 level) but at least I can teach, stay in my free apartment and get an income. That half a thou a month i lose is no biggie since i usually used it for traveling, a hobby i won't be doing over the next 12 months i expect anyways.

Good for you VanI, glad to hear that.
 
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Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
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I was offered a one-year work contract extension yesterday, and just two hours ago officially received the work visa to do it. :) I can finally teach after having been laid off without pay since Feb. 21st. Yeah, I had to accept $500 a month less pay (biz is at 40% of preCOVID19 level) but at least I can teach, stay in my free apartment and get an income. That half a thou a month i lose is no biggie since i usually used it for traveling, a hobby i won't be doing over the next 12 months i expect anyways.

Awesome!!
 
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ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
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I was offered a one-year work contract extension yesterday, and just two hours ago officially received the work visa to do it. :) I can finally teach after having been laid off without pay since Feb. 21st. Yeah, I had to accept $500 a month less pay (biz is at 40% of preCOVID19 level) but at least I can teach, stay in my free apartment and get an income. That half a thou a month i lose is no biggie since i usually used it for traveling, a hobby i won't be doing over the next 12 months i expect anyways.

GREAT NEWS!
 
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Habsfan18

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The ignorance of some people (especially on this site) when it comes to hockey history is both infuriating and baffling.

Go read page 5 of the Jagr vs Clarke coaches thread on the main NHL board. According to one of the posters there the following players were all “warehouse workers who would be cut in training camp in today’s NHL”:

Orr, Perreault, Hull, Dionne, Mikita, Sittler, Potvin, Lafleur, Robinson, Keon, Esposito, Trottier, Barber, Bossy, Lemaire, Ratelle, Beliveau, Bucyk, Cournoyer etc

I mean, the ignorance is real with that one. I just can’t grasp how people can be that clueless. Teenager or not (which is what I assume many of these posters who say shit like that are) you’d think if you were a big enough fan of hockey to post on a forum you would have at least SOME respect and understanding of at least some of the all-time greats. I mean, even at 10 years old I knew who Bobby Orr was and knew he was one of the greatest ever. And even as a teenager with limited knowledge of hockey history as a whole I would have never made a baseless comment like that.

I can understand the fact that athletes are better than ever now and that the game has evolved over time and that players are quicker, stronger and faster than ever. But to just assume the all-time greats would all be plugs in today’s NHL is just completely ignorant. You have to take into account what those players would do with today’s improvements to training, equipment etc..Look at all of the resources available to players nowadays to work on and improve their game. You don’t think the greats would seriously benefit from all of that?

I try to stay away from the main board now, and it’s because of shit like that. I don’t know, I guess I shouldn’t let it piss me off this much. :laugh:
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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The ignorance of some people (especially on this site) when it comes to hockey history is both infuriating and baffling.

Go read page 5 of the Jagr vs Clarke coaches thread on the main NHL board. According to one of the posters there the following players were all “warehouse workers who would be cut in training camp in today’s NHL”:

Orr, Perreault, Hull, Dionne, Mikita, Sittler, Potvin, Lafleur, Robinson, Keon, Esposito, Trottier, Barber, Bossy, Lemaire, Ratelle, Beliveau, Bucyk, Cournoyer etc

I mean, the ignorance is real with that one. I just can’t grasp how people can be that clueless. Teenager or not (which is what I assume many of these posters who say shit like that are) you’d think if you were a big enough fan of hockey to post on a forum you would have at least SOME respect and understanding of at least some of the all-time greats. I mean, even at 10 years old I knew who Bobby Orr was and knew he was one of the greatest ever. And even as a teenager with limited knowledge of hockey history as a whole I would have never made a baseless comment like that.

I can understand the fact that athletes are better than ever now and that the game has evolved over time and that players are quicker, stronger and faster than ever. But to just assume the all-time greats would all be plugs in today’s NHL is just completely ignorant. You have to take into account what those players would do with today’s improvements to training, equipment etc..Look at all of the resources available to players nowadays to work on and improve their game. You don’t think the greats would seriously benefit from all of that?

I try to stay away from the main board now, and it’s because of shit like that. I don’t know, I guess I shouldn’t let it piss me off this much. :laugh:

:laugh:
giphy.gif
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
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The ignorance of some people (especially on this site) when it comes to hockey history is both infuriating and baffling.

Go read page 5 of the Jagr vs Clarke coaches thread on the main NHL board. According to one of the posters there the following players were all “warehouse workers who would be cut in training camp in today’s NHL”:

Orr, Perreault, Hull, Dionne, Mikita, Sittler, Potvin, Lafleur, Robinson, Keon, Esposito, Trottier, Barber, Bossy, Lemaire, Ratelle, Beliveau, Bucyk, Cournoyer etc

I mean, the ignorance is real with that one. I just can’t grasp how people can be that clueless. Teenager or not (which is what I assume many of these posters who say shit like that are) you’d think if you were a big enough fan of hockey to post on a forum you would have at least SOME respect and understanding of at least some of the all-time greats. I mean, even at 10 years old I knew who Bobby Orr was and knew he was one of the greatest ever. And even as a teenager with limited knowledge of hockey history as a whole I would have never made a baseless comment like that.

I can understand the fact that athletes are better than ever now and that the game has evolved over time and that players are quicker, stronger and faster than ever. But to just assume the all-time greats would all be plugs in today’s NHL is just completely ignorant. You have to take into account what those players would do with today’s improvements to training, equipment etc..Look at all of the resources available to players nowadays to work on and improve their game. You don’t think the greats would seriously benefit from all of that?

I try to stay away from the main board now, and it’s because of shit like that. I don’t know, I guess I shouldn’t let it piss me off this much. :laugh:
The NHL and the mainstream media that covers it pushes this narrative actively, and a huge number of luminaries from the past seem happy to play along - see those Sonnet Insurance commercials where Mario Tremblay, Mike Vernon and Doug Gilmour act like goofy old fogies while preparing for a game with William Nylander, Johnny Gaudreau and Jonathan Drouin. My completely unsupported opinion is that there was a shift in the way the NHL's fanbase and commentariat viewed the past that happened soon after the lockout, with two causes. One, the need to show the public that the NHL's product was rejuvenated with Crosby, Ovechkin, and no redline after a real slog of a decade. And two, HD TVs with easily recorded and played back digital signal were in every household - compared to what you can see now, even footage of Jagr and Sundin aren't as appealing to watch.
When I was a kid, my perception was that the Rocket, Howe, Hull, Orr, Lafleur, Gretzky and Lemieux formed a sort of unbroken pantheon of greatness. Perhaps the disappointment of Lindros and the inconsistency and (unfortunately xenophobia-based) unlikability of Jagr broke that thread and convinced everyone that Sidney Crosby was something entirely new.
 

Namba 17

Registered User
May 9, 2011
1,688
562
The ignorance of some people (especially on this site) when it comes to hockey history is both infuriating and baffling.

Go read page 5 of the Jagr vs Clarke coaches thread on the main NHL board. According to one of the posters there the following players were all “warehouse workers who would be cut in training camp in today’s NHL”:

Orr, Perreault, Hull, Dionne, Mikita, Sittler, Potvin, Lafleur, Robinson, Keon, Esposito, Trottier, Barber, Bossy, Lemaire, Ratelle, Beliveau, Bucyk, Cournoyer etc

I mean, the ignorance is real with that one. I just can’t grasp how people can be that clueless. Teenager or not (which is what I assume many of these posters who say shit like that are) you’d think if you were a big enough fan of hockey to post on a forum you would have at least SOME respect and understanding of at least some of the all-time greats. I mean, even at 10 years old I knew who Bobby Orr was and knew he was one of the greatest ever. And even as a teenager with limited knowledge of hockey history as a whole I would have never made a baseless comment like that.

I can understand the fact that athletes are better than ever now and that the game has evolved over time and that players are quicker, stronger and faster than ever. But to just assume the all-time greats would all be plugs in today’s NHL is just completely ignorant. You have to take into account what those players would do with today’s improvements to training, equipment etc..Look at all of the resources available to players nowadays to work on and improve their game. You don’t think the greats would seriously benefit from all of that?

I try to stay away from the main board now, and it’s because of shit like that. I don’t know, I guess I shouldn’t let it piss me off this much. :laugh:
(shrugging) I meet with ignorance of the similar level here, in hockey history section, when people begin to talk about Soviet hockey or European hockey. People are similar. It's easier to live with any kind of bias, than to lean smth new and change your point of view you got used to.
I'm thinking over the idea to make a special thread where I'd collect all ridiculous statements I came across HF, concerning Soviet hockey with an explanation why they are wrong. I'm afraid I'll have no time for it, unfortunately.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
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On my run today I was thinking about whether it'd be possible to make a credible 40-team ATD squad using alumni of newer teams, assuming everything broke your way and nobody scooped your picks. I figured that while the Habs would be the only team you were likely to find good picks in every round for, that it'd be possible for any team that existed before 1990 and still does. You'd need a decent coach, starting goalie or tandem, something approaching a #1 defenseman, and a 1st round pick that's not a total reach.

Here are the borderline cases: (non-Islander 70s teams)

Vancouver: You can get Luongo mid-draft, and any of Quinn, Neilson, Vigneault or Tortorella late in the draft. Messier would be a great get in the first round. However, Quinn is literally the only defenseman to play for the franchise who's in the hall of fame, and he's not in for his on ice skills. It's incredible that a team that's lasted this long didn't get one for even a cup of coffee at any point. You'd be able to make 24 decent picks for the Canucks, but you'd end up with a team with like, 18 forwards and 3 defensemen. So far, so not good.

Buffalo: Your first round pick has to be Hasek and you can get Tim Horton in the second round. Bowman should coach. Smooth sailing.

Atlanta/Calgary: Jagr in the first round, MacInnis in the second, Grant Fuhr mid-draft, and Sutter or Bob Johnson to coach. All good.

Washington: Ovechkin in the first round, but you're taking a big reach if you go for Langway in the second. Mike Liut is a very weak starter at this league size but not totally fatal. If you can cheat and take Milt Schmitd in the second round and Langway in the third, you're in better shape. Trotz for your coach.

Kansas/Colorado/New Jersey: If you have a late pick, you can get Brodeur and Stevens in quick succession, and you'll have tons of good picks after that. Lemaire, Robinson or Burns will be available and different times in the draft.

Edmonton: In a similar draft spot to New Jersey, you get Coffey and Pronger straight away, then Kurri in the third and Fuhr midway through the draft. Messier or Plante are intriguing round one options but leave you thin on defense before Lowe, Ruotsalainen, Hamrlik and others become plausible picks. Gretzky with the first or second overall pick guarantees you'll never have a decent defenseman. Sather, Hitchcock and Quinn are coach options.

Hartford/Carolina: If you have a late round pick, Coffey and Pronger again, before getting to Francis, Shanahan and others. If you have a early pick, Howe or Hull, and then Mark Howe is doable. Barrasso and Liut is the best budget tandem you could ask for. Laviolette to coach.

Quebec/Colorado: Roy has to be your first pick so you miss Lafleur and Sakic, but Forsberg is good for the second round and Blake or Tremblay should be available after that. Quenneville or Demers to coach.

Winnipeg/Phoenix: Off to a good start with Hull as an early pick and a possible Selanne/Savard double shot after that, but there are no good goalies to be had. Joseph, Khabibulin and Burke are ATD calibre but a weak tandem. Is Tippet the coach here?

All but Vancouver and Winnipeg should be somewhat workable, but you'd never get all the picks you wanted, unlike the challenge I set for myself.
 

kruezer

Registered User
Apr 21, 2002
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North Bay
I just watched this mini doc about the Maine Black Bears in Kariya's one NCAA Frozen Four. Not sure exactly when it was put together, had to be the 90s i think, but its interesting to see some between periods footage from the Black Bear dressing room around 33 minutes.

 

Johnny Engine

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Jul 29, 2009
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We just had a very good day of news in Newfoundland and Labrador regarding COVID-19, and I felt like rambling about it a little bit in a place where I know most of you are very statistically literate.

We just announced our heaviest day of testing to date, and turned up one case. Previous 7 days gave us 4, 5, 2, 0, 2, 2, 4, going backwards in order. For context, in late March we were adding up to 32 cases a day.

On April 8, the provincial government released projections on the growth of the virus, using a best-case R0 of 1.5, and a worst-case R0 of 3, showing a probable peak in active cases in June or November, respectively. I don't have all the information about how they arrived at these figures, but if my head-math is correct, going from a handful of travelers in mid March to 200 cases at the time of the projection is consistent with a growth rate of R0=1.5 if we assuming generations to take an average of 5 days.

Except the virus didn't multiply consistently at all. Some time on the weekend of March 15th, someone infected with COVID-19 attended a funeral and hugged everybody. This was a couple of days before our schools shut down, my work sent everyone home, and everyone started getting their food delivered. I played a beer league game that weekend, and while I felt antsy doing it, there was no obvious risk in doing so because nobody in our group traveled and there were no publicized cases in the province on that day. Now, 177 people, or over 70% of the cases in our province can be traced directly to that funeral.

So I'm not sure how many people actually contracted COVID-19 at the funeral home, and how many of those 175 are a generation or more away from that incident, but it's fair enough to say that the number of people that the average carrier infects while our province is in lockdown should not include someone who infected anywhere from 25, 50, 100 people while the province was not in lockdown.

IF the official numbers are anything close to a representative proxy for the growth of the disease here, then COVID-19 is dying out in Newfoundland under our current conditions (though not fast enough to celebrate about anything). Going back to the beginning of April, we have 64 new cases in the first 5 days, 19 new cases in the next 5 days, 7 cases in the next 5 days, and 10 cases in the last 3 while doubling our daily tests. That's a terrible sample size to draw any conclusions from, but that's not what would happen if every one of those people infected an average of 1.5 people within 5 days. It's more like one of every 2 people infecting anyone at all.

So we have to contend with the fact that we're not catching all of the cases, and we don't know how many people actually have the virus. The fact that our numbers have bumped a bit over the past few days as we move from testing only travelers, serious cases, health care workers and people who attended that funeral clusterf***, to now testing anyone with a dry cough, shows that there's more to uncover.

I think our numbers were closer to accurate in late March when we were dealing with that funeral. The simple logic is that there could have been twice as many COVID-19 cases before that, and twice as many now, but it's highly unlikely there was an identical but entirely separate fiasco just like that funeral that happened at the exact same time and went totally unnoticed. Unfortunately that means that if you assume that there are 100 unknown active cases right now to add to the 65 currently fighting the disease, then the spread hasn't declined as fast as suggested above. It might even be rising slightly. We'll have a better idea of that if we keep testing like we have for the last couple of days, but there are still other variables.

Some people have suggested that death and hospitalization rates are the best way to predict the actual size of an individual outbreak, and that's more great news for Newfoundland. 1.56% of our settled cases ended in death, and 9.23% of our active cases are in hospital. That's really, really low, and if we do indeed have another 200-300 people blissfully unaware they have a coronavirus, then the real fatality rate for this thing could be way lower than we think it is. The most likely scenario is that we've caught the majority of cases that have been here within a week or so of them popping up, but there are still more strays than anyone should be comfortable with, and that it'll still be weeks before we're likely to be turning up goose eggs day after day despite testing our arses off.

Anyway, this sucks, but my job, my partner, my cat, my art and music, and you guys have made this as good a month as I could possibly expect. I hope my island can kill the motherf***er dead, and I hope we don't make any hasty decisions and take the recovery slowly. Not every jurisdiction has the luxury of presenting such easily graspable numbers - cases in the hundreds, only a handful identified before our lockdown. But if we do manage to beat this earlier than most, it'll provide a valuable statistical study of how it moves, and how it lives and dies.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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3+ people DIE EVERY DAY on Newfoundland of lung cancer due to tobacco.

Shake everyone's hand, go to the busiest market, kiss on the first date but whatever you do, do not smoke!
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
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Who? ... Jim?

EDIT: 1947 Calder trophy runner-up Wings center who led the NHL in even strength goals in his 3rd season during which he was traded to Chicago, where he was waived in his 6th season and played some games for the lowly Rags before ending his career with half a season in the AHL.

Not an all-time great, but a royal hockey surname!
 
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Leaf Lander

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He played over 300 nhl games and was a ww2 vet. They interviewed him heavily in nhl 100th season interviews about hockey from back in the day. He played in parts of 8 nhl seasons tallying over 200 points in 328 games
 
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VanIslander

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Sep 4, 2004
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The NFL Draft is this week and i am such a sports junkie that the ATD and NFL draft have been premier occupations of my time during this sports-suspended time.

I just watched over 50 NFL draft propect clips and was STRUCK by how most players are DIVIDED easily into two camps:

A) so glad to be drafted; it's a pinnacle
and
B) finally the pros are coming; there's so much to come.

The B group includes QBs Burrows and Hurts, WR Lamb, OT Wilfs, RB Swift, DEs Brown and Gross-Matos, LB Simmons, Queen, Murray, DBs Henderson, Terrell.

WAAAY TOO MANY other top 30 prospects are just soooo happy to be drafted. Ugh. Put ten million in their pocket for being a 1st round prospect and half disappear. DANGER: 'L' is for lazy... and Loser.
 
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nabby12

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Nov 11, 2008
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He played over 300 nhl games and was a ww2 vet. They interviewed him heavily in nhl 100th season interviews about hockey from back in the day. He played in parts of 8 nhl seasons tallying over 200 points in 328 games

Don't believe he was ever interviewed for the NHL's 100th.
 

Habsfan18

The Hockey Library
May 13, 2003
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I highly recommend a Newspapers.com subscription.

If you're looking for something to fill the time, there is a MOUNTAIN of information on early era players. It has been thoroughly rewarding doing research with such a tool.

Agreed completely. I tried the free 7 day trial and today decided to sign up for a full “publishers extra” 6 month subscription. It’s fantastic value for historical researchers.

Even using it for newer stuff is interesting just to kill some time. For example I’ve been reading the immediate 1982 draft reactions in the Minnesota and Boston papers. Boston caught almost the entire hockey world off guard by taking Gord Kluzak number 1 over Brian Bellows. It’s neat reading the different opinion pieces and articles from separate hockey cities.
 
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Johnny Engine

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Agreed completely. I tried the free 7 day trial and today decided to sign up for a full “publishers extra” 6 month subscription. It’s fantastic value for historical researchers.

Even using it for newer stuff is interesting just to kill some time. For example I’ve been reading the immediate 1982 draft reactions in the Minnesota and Boston papers. Boston caught almost the entire hockey world off guard by taking Gord Kluzak number 1 over Brian Bellows. It’s neat reading the different opinion pieces and articles from separate hockey cities.
If I remember correctly, didn't the North Stars send some assets to Boston for future considerations, those being that Boston would pass on Bellows? Was that not announced before the draft, and revealed later?
 
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Habsfan18

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If I remember correctly, didn't the North Stars send some assets to Boston for future considerations, those being that Boston would pass on Bellows? Was that not announced before the draft, and revealed later?

Bellows was actually highly touted for years leading up to the draft, in the mold of Orr, Gretzky and Potvin which is hilarious in hindsight. Multiple teams made trades (the rights to swap picks in return for a player) in the year leading to the draft in hopes that it would end up as the 1st overall pick with the purpose of drafting Bellows. Those types of trades happened quite a bit back then.

Lou Nanne made one of those trades, but Minnesota ended up with the 2nd overall selection. Boston fans and media wanted Bellows BADLY - going so far as to having signs in the arena during the season pleading for Bellows to save the Bruins. Problem is, Harry Sinden was absolutely in love with Gord Kluzak. His scouts wanted Bellows (at least the majority of them), the fans desperately wanted Bellows. Sinden was even quoted in the Boston Globe as saying his own wife hung up the phone on him when he told her they were going with Kluzak. But Sinden was convinced Kluzak was the guy, especially after a few of his friends around the league expressed opinions that Kluzak would be the better player. “Godzilla on skates.” Sinden compared him to Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin. Their chief scout called him “a Big Bourque”.

Nanne was so worried with the draft almost underway, that he sent Boston Brad Palmer (1st rounder in 1980 who was coming off a 22 goal season) and Dave Donnelly (2nd rounder in 1981) with Sinden promising Nanne he would leave Bellows to him. Sinden later said he would have taken Kluzak regardless, but Nanne was paranoid. That deal was announced the day of the draft, I believe. But was completed the day before.

Bellows was actually being viewed as a guy that could compete with Gretzky in the NHL scoring race, believe it or not. Minnesota fans were ecstatic and the common belief league-wide was that Minnesota was incredibly lucky that Boston agreed to pass on him. Looking back Bellows was a pretty good player for Minnesota. But considering what the crazy expectations were at the time, he was supposed to be a superstar. Kluzak was an injury riddled flop. Same with Gary Nylund at 3rd overall. Both were supposed to be top flight defensemen for the next decade.
 
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seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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Bellows was actually highly touted for years leading up to the draft, in the mold of Orr, Gretzky and Potvin which is hilarious in hindsight. Multiple teams made trades (the rights to swap picks in return for a player) in the year leading to the draft in hopes that it would end up as the 1st overall pick with the purpose of drafting Bellows. Those types of trades happened quite a bit back then.

Lou Nanne made one of those trades, but Minnesota ended up with the 2nd overall selection. Boston fans and media wanted Bellows BADLY - going so far as to having signs in the arena during the season pleading for Bellows to save the Bruins. Problem is, Harry Sinden was absolutely in love with Gord Kluzak. His scouts wanted Bellows (at least the majority of them), the fans desperately wanted Bellows. Sinden was even quoted in the Boston Globe as saying his own wife hung up the phone on him when he told her they were going with Kluzak. But Sinden was convinced Kluzak was the guy, especially after a few of his friends around the league expressed opinions that Kluzak would be the better player. “Godzilla on skates.” Sinden compared him to Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin. Their chief scout called him “a Big Bourque”.

Nanne was so worried with the draft almost underway, that he sent Boston Brad Palmer (1st rounder in 1980 who was coming off a 22 goal season) and Dave Donnelly (2nd rounder in 1981) with Sinden promising Nanne he would leave Bellows to him. Sinden later said he would have taken Kluzak regardless, but Nanne was paranoid. That deal was announced the day of the draft, I believe. But was completed the day before.

Bellows was actually being viewed as a guy that could compete with Gretzky in the NHL scoring race, believe it or not. Minnesota fans were ecstatic and the common belief league-wide was that Minnesota was incredibly lucky that Boston agreed to pass on him. Looking back Bellows was a pretty good player for Minnesota. But considering what the crazy expectations were at the time, he was supposed to be a superstar. Kluzak was an injury riddled flop. Same with Gary Nylund at 3rd overall. Both were supposed to be top flight defensemen for the next decade.

Bellows, in the couple years before and after his draft, was talked about the way Jonathan Toews was talked about. He ended up being your run-of-the-mill 1000 point scorer with some size and jam, but nothing special physically, defensively, or in the leadership department. My bio from 2017 has it all.
 
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