ATD Chat Thread XVI

[ImporterExporter]

These playoffs were unforgettable.

If you're talking about the refs.

Honestly though, they were pretty solid overall.

I like seeing a teams get their first Cup win. Plus Boston lost, so that was a bonus.

I also lost respect for Boston's "fans". Almost everyone bailed last night and I'm sorry but that is so f***ing lame. You spend a lot of money on a Cup final ticket (I know, I was at Game 5 Pens vs Preds when the Pens crushed them 6-0) and being a game 7, they weren't remotely cheap. I can guarantee that. Plus there is the fabled Cup coming out at the end. People in this day and age are such pansies. Not that I had much respect for the people of Boston and their arrogance but that just sealed the deal.

 

[VanIslander]

Are you ****in' kiddin' me???

Devils ADD Hughes and Subban?
Rags ADD Kakko and Trouba?

Dang!

Plus I'd heard the Canes were aggressively pursuing trade talks, and I mentally visualized Marleau VETOING any trade to North Carolina on the east coast. Yet, there he AGREED to go?! (It further supports the rumour that there was a "quiet" understanding when Patty signed that fat 3-yr deal.) Veteran Justin Williams was captain but is a UFA. Did the Canes promise captaincy? The next oldest Cane skater is 30-year-old Jordan Staal. Or is TSN right, and this is a buyout move?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Patty Marleau has always just been a guy who's along for the ride to me.

Winning doesn't follow him.

I pray he doesn't sniff the Hall. Too many undeserving role players in there already.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Crosby has been a captain since 2007-08, 12 years already. Damnit time flies by when you're having fun. Would need 8 more years to catch Yzerman for longest tenure as Captain in the NHL.

The Pens in that span have never missed the playoffs, and been to the Cup finals 4 times overall, winning 3.

 

[VanIslander]

145th Zubov
255th Carbo
308th Nedo

from ATD 2019 ... are all to become HHOFers!

 

[ImporterExporter]

145th Zubov
255th Carbo
308th Nedo

from ATD 2019 ... are all to become HHOFers!

Degredation of the Hall continues.

It basically echoes society where we water down education, job performance evals, you name it.

The HOF should be reserved only for the truly elite players.

 

[Dreakmur]

Degredation of the Hall continues.

It basically echoes society where we water down education, job performance evals, you name it.

The HOF should be reserved only for the truly elite players.

Yeah, that’s a pretty brutal class. Can’t believe Sergei Makarov isn’t able to sneak in when these are the best alternatives.

 

[VanIslander]

Yeah, that’s a pretty brutal class. Can’t believe Sergei Makarov isn’t able to sneak in when these are the best alternatives.

Psst. Dreakmur. You seem to have missed it. Makarov was inducted in 2016.

Krutov and Kasatonov should be in: the entire Green Unit to represent the dominant 1980's team that spanked the best NHL teams and all-star squads.

 

[Dreakmur]

Psst. Dreakmur. You seem to have missed it. Makarov was inducted in 2016.

Krutov and Kasatonov should be in: the entire Green Unit to represent the dominant 1980's team that spanked the best NHL teams and all-star squads.

Good for Makarov. He should have been in 20 years ago.

If Zubov goes in, how is Jimmy Thomson not?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Dreak,

Your last sentence/question is how we keep seeing justifications for worse and worse players getting in.

It blows my mind that even just a few people support someone like Bill Barber sharing HOF honours with Gordie Howe.

 

[VanIslander]

I dunno where best to put this question:

Why are there so many less great centers today (GMs at the draft raving about wingers who could also play center; teams in the NHL needing a top-6 center, the media talking about the difficulty finding them)?

Twenty years ago all-star and rourney teams were FULL of centers, too many on the squad.

What gives?

 

[Dreakmur]

I dunno where best to put this question:

Why are there so many less great centers today (GMs at the draft raving about wingers who could also play center; teams in the NHL needing a top-6 center, the media talking about the difficulty finding them)?

Twenty years ago all-star and rourney teams were FULL of centers, too many on the squad.

What gives?

What gives? About 25 more teams.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Obviously a brutal class. My favorite comment on HOH was that the Hall is finally inducting 70s Europeans, but somehow managing to do it in a North American centric way (Yakushev, now Nedomansky).

Carbonneau really came out of nowhere, but it did always feel awkward that Gainey was in and Carbonneau wasn't.

Zubov really benefits from the Niedermayer recency-bias thing, where his later career is remembered and somehow projected back to his earlier career. Better player than Housley for sure, not as good as Wilson or Tremblay.

 

[VanIslander]

Obviously a brutal class. My favorite comment on HOH was that the Hall is finally inducting 70s Europeans, but somehow managing to do it in a North American centric way (Yakushev, now Nedomansky).

Carbonneau really came out of nowhere, but it did always feel awkward that Gainey was in and Carbonneau wasn't.

Zubov really benefits from the Niedermayer recency-bias thing, where his later career is remembered and somehow projected back to his earlier career. Better player than Housley for sure, not as good as Wilson or Tremblay.

I wish i could double "LIKE" this post. Nailed it.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Obviously a brutal class. My favorite comment on HOH was that the Hall is finally inducting 70s Europeans, but somehow managing to do it in a North American centric way (Yakushev, now Nedomansky).

Carbonneau really came out of nowhere, but it did always feel awkward that Gainey was in and Carbonneau wasn't.

Zubov really benefits from the Niedermayer recency-bias thing, where his later career is remembered and somehow projected back to his earlier career. Better player than Housley for sure, not as good as Wilson or Tremblay.

None of those players should be in the Hall.

 

[seventieslord]

None of those players should be in the Hall.

I'd argue that anyone good enough to make our HOH top players lists deserves to be in.

Certainly plenty who don't make that cut have been deemed worthy.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'd argue that anyone good enough to make our HOH top players lists deserves to be in.

Certainly plenty who don't make that cut have been deemed worthy.

Do you really think the 58th best winger of all time is a Hall of Famer? (I didn't look).

I guess my issue is that as the years go on the bar gets lower and lower and lower.

Why is Jim Rutherford a HoFer? I mean as a Pens fan he deserves a huge amount of credit for the back to back Cups but if we go beyond simple Cup counting is his 2.5 decades as a GM really THAT elite? Look at his career in Carolina. Yep, had an outlier year where they won the Cup but he is also directly responsible for setting that franchise back long term. Personally I think he should have walked after the 2nd Cup in Pittsburgh, going out on a peak high, but now we're seeing some of the same things happening in Pittsburgh that happened in Carolina. The question is will the ship get righted?

Zubov being in the Hall with somebody like Lidstrom or Red Kelly is ridiculous. Excluding the few one in a lifetime type talents (Orr, Howe, Gretzky, Mario) those next tier guys (Harvey, Beliveau, Hull, Bourque, Crosby, etc) are still MILES better than somebody like Bill Barber or Phil Housely.

Somebody who isn't close to being a top 100 player of all time should be nowhere near Toronto IMO.

The standard has been lowered so much. And honestly, it's not just hockey.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I tend to agree with IE here.The standards are way too low.

Those who gets drafted out of the Top 100 in the ATD should be out for sure (except a few goalies, maybe a few underrated centers).Most players out of the Top 50 should be out too.

But this is just based on my personal standards of what the HHOF should be as an institution; everyone will have theirs.What is the HHOF supposed to accomplish? If it's to highlight the career of very good players, then so be it and the standards are fine as they are today.If it's separate the legends from the very good, then it should be more severe.

 

[VanIslander]

Those who gets drafted out of the Top 100 in the ATD should be out for sure (except a few goalies, maybe a few underrated centers).Most players out of the Top 50 should be out too.

There are 271 players in the HHOF.

Nedomansky is a great addition. It opens the door for Martinec, Hlinka, Novy and Suchy, all deserving of representing the greatness of Czechoslovakian hockey.

If it wasn't for the Hall, most casual hockey fans would have very little chance to happen to come across accidentally the stars of the distant past, like Russell Bowie, Hod Stuart, Ching Johnson, Mickey Mackay, George Hay, Hoolie Smith, Herbie Lewis and Marty Barry.

100 years from now the defensive greatness of Carbonneau will be remembered, and that will be a good thing. He obviously is not inducted for his scoring stats. "He must have been something special defensively," someone will say, and they will have been right.

 

[VanIslander]

You don't need a HHOF to remember a Rocket Richard, Eddie Shore or Ted Kennedy. The NHL franchises they played for will always honor them and their fan bases will bring them up. Even Frank McGee will get remembered as part of the Silver Seven because they were in Ottawa, and the Senators extend the history.

But a guy like Nels Stewart, playing for a now-defunct NHL club, would get forgotten more often than he should.

And then there are the stars in the shadow of the giants, like poor Syd Howe, who was a star in Detroit before Gordie made everyone in the city forget its own history pre-Mr.Elbows.

It's like the Olympics: people remember the gold-medal winners. The silver and bronze medals are to honor and have a tangible memento for greats who competed but would be forgotten if not given medals of some sort.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You don't need a HHOF to remember a Rocket Richard, Eddie Shore or Ted Kennedy. The NHL franchises they played for will always honor them and their fan bases will bring them up. Even Frank McGee will get remembered as part of the Silver Seven because they were in Ottawa, and the Senators extend the history.

But a guy like Nels Stewart, playing for a now-defunct NHL club, would get forgotten more often than he should.

And then there are the stars in the shadow of the giants, like poor Syd Howe, who was a star in Detroit before Gordie made everyone in the city forget its own history pre-Mr.Elbows.

It's like the Olympics: people remember the gold-medal winners. The silver and bronze medals are to honor and have a tangible memento for greats who competed but would be forgotten if not given medals of some sort.

So you're saying inducting players who aren't worthy is justifiable so we can remember them?

You really are a lifelong academic, dude.

Funny, i don't really need the hockey hall of fame to find info on Nels Stewart. I did this long bio on him last year. Pretty sure I didn't get any of it from the HHOF .

 

[VanIslander]

So you're saying inducting players who aren't worthy is justifiable so we can remember them?

No.

You really are a lifelong academic, dude.

The point is: most hockey fans aren't academic, aren't likely to read history books or search out 1930's NHL stars or Maroons, for example. The HHOF is a place the typical hockey fan can go with their friends or family and learn something about GREAT players from the past. Were Nels Stewart and Syd How stars in their era? Absolutely. So why say they don't deserve to be honored and remembered as such?

Funny, i don't really need the hockey hall of fame to find info on Nels Stewart. I did this long bio on him last year. Pretty sure I didn't get any of it from the HHOF .

Funny, most people don't go around constructing bios on such players (heck, most ATDers don't even!).

 

[ImporterExporter]

No.

The point is: most hockey fans aren't academic, aren't likely to read history books or search out 1930's NHL stars or Maroons, for example. The HHOF is a place the typical hockey fan can go with their friends or family and learn something about GREAT players from the past. Were Nels Stewart and Syd How stars in their era? Absolutely. So why say they don't deserve to be honored and remembered as such?

Funny, most people don't go around constructing bios on such players (heck, most ATDers don't even!).

It's called the Hall of FAME.

Not the Hall of GREAT.

Was Syd Howe famous for an extended period of time? He never won a Hart. Was an AS once. Never led the league in any major category. WHY WAS HE inducted?

At what point did we start deciding it was ok to put the 5th and 6th best players of teams from a single generation into the Hall?

Babe Ruth said it best in "The Sandlot".

Heroes get remembered.

Legends never die.

There are players dating back generations that have absolutely no business being in the HOF alongside the top 10 players of all time. It makes a mockery of players who were truly legends and THAT standard has been raped.

 

[seventieslord]

Yikes, so now Syd Howe of all guys is on the chopping block.

Really strange place to start.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yikes, so now Syd Howe of all guys is on the chopping block.

Really strange place to start.

Just using a name Van threw out there.

I absolutely don't see how Syd Howe is a HoF hockey player given the alternatives. As i pointed out his resume is certainly not chalk full of accomplishments, especially relative to the top 50, maybe even the top 100 players ever, international or otherwise.

I'd struggle to put 100 in the Hall to be clear.