ATD 2021 Draft Thread II

[VanIslander]

[Gawd. Three xxx should be here. Three.]

 

[Habsfan18]

I rate Gonchar clearly above Karlsson in defence. Karlsson at his best is maybe as good or possibly even better than Gonchar defensively, but he’s been at that level so rarely. Overall Gonchar was better without the puck. Much better size and positioning in front of his net. Defensive stick was just as good and he used it better because of his positioning. Karlsson was more valuable once he got the puck because of his ability to skate it out, but Gonchar passed just as well. And Karlsson got caught up ice more than Gonchar did.

Karlsson needed to be protected with a good partner even more than Gonchar. If he has a weak partner, his pairing just bleeds goals against. Gonchar made Jared Cowen look like a top 4 NHL defenceman for a whole season.

I was just using those two as examples, meaning he’s likely closer to them on a defensive scale than he would be to a shutdown guy.

I wouldn’t use either in a shutdown role of course, and especially at this level. But as a coach I’d still trust him on the defensive end over Karlsson, certainly.

Overall though, considering the level of the ATD, Gonchar is essentially pure-offense here while not being a complete xx(undrafted)-level liability either. At least that’s how I view it. Others may disagree.

For the record, I’m not claiming it was a bad pick. I think overall the defensive issues are overblown. But I’ve seen him described as “solid” defensively as well and I don’t believe that to be the case either. He was surprisingly “solid” defensively in his Pittsburgh days, though.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The people who watch Pittsburgh as much as I do, refer to Malkin as having a "God-mode".

The issue with that is, it's so fleeting. It rarely happens anymore, mainly because he's entering his mid 30's, but back in his prime, especially during his Smythe run in 09, he had the ability to be literally unstoppable on the ice. He had/has the size, all around elite skill with the puck, good (not great, which is why he'd never catch OV) shot. People are aware of that, but he also had the ability to be an absolute force defensively. Backchecking the puck off people. Bowling them over and just taking the puck by force. It was absolutely fleeting, but there was a level that Malkin could get to, that very few players in history have/will.

Injuries and consistency are the biggest "issues" for Geno.

Massive talent though.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

[Gawd. XXX should be here. Three.]

Posts like these are worse than mentioning undrafteds in passing. Please stop

 

[VanIslander]

"Soviets" is a banned word?

Since when.

I have only been here the last 18 years. If the yardsticks have been moved, please enlighten me.

 

[ResilientBeast]

"Soviets" is a banned word?

Since when.

I have only been here the last 18 years. If the yardsticks have been moved, please enlighten me.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

The undrafted rule is in place to not tip picks for players

You're openly suggesting someone pick 3 players now which is clearly violating the spirit of the rules and you know it

 

[VanIslander]

Any of three... are better i was alluding to.... not even directly, many candidates

I never claimed 3 or more were better...

Silly... not 'obtuse'

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Posts like these are worse than mentioning undrafteds in passing. Please stop

"xxx" is a banned word?

Since when.

I have only been here the last 18 years. If the yardsticks have been moved, please enlighten me.

How could you possibly interpret TDMM's above post to be about you using that word and not about the fact that you are saying undrafteds should be picked now in a way that makes it very easy to figure out who specifically you are talking about?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Any of three... are better i was alluding to.... not even directly, many candidates

I never claimed 3 or more were better...

Silly... not 'obtuse'

Eh

[Gawd. Three xxx should be here. Three.]

Yeah you did

 

[VanIslander]

Three or four players.. i referred to NO one of them.

Silly,... i suggest a field of 3-4 better players and am jumped on as SPECIFYING WHOM?

 

[VanIslander]

There are several undrafteds better than the picked one. I'll stand by this statement and back it up when picks are eventually made. Okay?

 

[BraveCanadian]

He's always good value because at this point in the draft, GMs are looking for LWs with more established value away from the puck.

I went down the newspapers rabbit hole a little bit on this one.. I think it was overpass who did that previously and found that there is very little description of scoring forwards defensive play in the archives. However, I did find a couple of interesting tidbits that might helps us peg Thompson's intangibles at least in relation to his contemporaries.

Towards the end of the 1936 season I found a couple of sportswriters giving their opinions on the upcoming all star teams.

In the Times Union on 27 Feb 1936 an undrafted was picked with Schriner and Thompson as honorable mentions. The reasoning?
"...it must be said that the selections of Cecil Dillon, Dave Schriner and Paul Thompson have been made only out of deference to their scoring records. Of the three, Thompson comes closest to being a team player, while Schriner is still a hockey player in the making. Of the three, Thompson is also the only one who gives conscious thought to his shots"

In the Gazette on 06 Mar 1936, DAL(?) MacDonald wrote a column with their selections for the all-star teams. He chose Thompson over Schriner despite Schriner being higher in scoring:
"Left wing goes to Paul Thompson of the Black Hawks. No doubt someone will ask, "Have you see the scoring averages lately?" Yes, Schriner is leading in both sections in scoring, but he's still a long way from being the hockey player that Paul Thompson is, to our way of thinking"

@overpass

 

[ResilientBeast]

Three or four players.. i referred to NO one of them.

Silly,... i suggest a field of 3-4 better players and am jumped on as SPECIFYING WHOM?

You openly made a comment that was identifying of said players lol

Not sure why don't just accept that you misstepped and move on

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

There are several undrafteds better than the picked one. I'll stand by this statement and back it up when picks are eventually made. Okay?

A statement like this is fine, there's no way to tell who you're talking about, please keep it in mind going forward.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I went down the newspapers rabbit hole a little bit on this one.. I think it was overpass who did that previously and found that there is very little description of scoring forwards defensive play in the archives. However, I did find a couple of interesting tidbits that might helps us peg Thompson's intangibles at least in relation to his contemporaries.

Towards the end of the 1936 season I found a couple of sportswriters giving their opinions on the upcoming all star teams.

In the Times Union on 27 Feb 1936 an undrafted was picked with Schriner and Thompson as honorable mentions. The reasoning?
"...it must be said that the selections of Cecil Dillon, Dave Schriner and Paul Thompson have been made only out of deference to their scoring records. Of the three, Thompson comes closest to being a team player, while Schriner is still a hockey player in the making. Of the three, Thompson is also the only one who gives conscious thought to his shots"

@overpass

The bolded makes complete sense when thinking about Schriner, but the mention of Dillon is puzzling to me. We have these 2 quotes, one from that same season and the other from early in the following season...

The Leader-Post: 11-2-1935 said:

xxx and Dillon, a pair of the best back-checkers in the league, will hook up with xxx on the third line in addition to emergency duty when the team is short-handed through penalties.​

Meriden Record: 11-2-1936 said:

As usual, xxx and Dillon, both superb defensive players, will carry the burden when penalties leave the team short-handed.​

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Will Provost ever fall to the 3rd line where he belongs?

He only twice hit the 20-goal mark, and his playoff scoring rate is worse.

He is the first of several EXCELLENT defensive forwards to come. The question is: Where in the line-up do they belong?

Provost was a 3rd liner in both ATD 2018 and 2019

 

[BraveCanadian]

The bolded makes complete sense when thinking about Schriner, but the mention of Dillon is puzzling to me. We have these 2 quotes, one from that same season and the other from early in the following season...

The Leader-Post: 11-2-1935 said:

xxx and Dillon, a pair of the best back-checkers in the league, will hook up with xxx on the third line in addition to emergency duty when the team is short-handed through penalties.​

Meriden Record: 11-2-1936 said:

As usual, xxx and Dillon, both superb defensive players, will carry the burden when penalties leave the team short-handed.​

It is just the writer's opinion so I don't know how much I trust the Dillon part, but the two writers give us something contemporary for Thompson which is better than the nothing we had before

 

[Habsfan18]

I think we as a group often put way too much stock into quotes and newspaper reports from those eras. We’re all guilty of it. Most of the time they are literally the opinion of a single reporter. It would be like someone in 2055 taking the words of Bruce Garrioch as gospel.

But for many players, we also don’t really have a choice. That’s the information given to us, so we no choice but to go with it.

 

[Dreakmur]

I think we as a group often put way too much stock into quotes and newspaper reports from those eras. We’re all guilty of it. Most of the time they are literally the opinion of a single reporter. It would be like someone in 2055 taking the words of Bruce Garrioch as gospel.

But for many players, we also don’t really have a choice. That’s the information given to us, so we no choice but to go with it.

One person's opinion is just that. When you have numerous quotes all confirming the same thing, that tells a better story.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think we as a group often put way too much stock into quotes and newspaper reports from those eras. We’re all guilty of it. Most of the time they are literally the opinion of a single reporter. It would be like someone in 2055 taking the words of Bruce Garrioch as gospel.

But for many players, we also don’t really have a choice. That’s the information given to us, so we no choice but to go with it.

Evidence is few and far between in these papers that is for sure.. starting to see a pattern here of Thompson in relation to pure scorers, though... here is another bit from Elmer Dulmage in The Vancouver - Sun Feb 8, 1936 regarding Thompson in relation to Conacher:

SWEENEY RISES
So it has come to a point where the names don't count. A sophomore from Calgary, Sweeney Schriner, of New York Americans, moved up to the head of the scoring in mid-January, although critics are hesitating to call Shriner a great player. They concede readily that he is a fast thinker, a deadly shot from close range.
...
Only a year ago, Charlie Conacher was hockey's No. 1 individual. today he is top-salary man of the Leafs who is finding the going pretty tough. He shoots harder than anyone else, but he's checked harder than anyone else, too. He isn't as good a back checker as, for instance, XXX, XXX, or Thompson.

 

[RustyRazor]

Portland selects Herb Gardiner (D).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Portland selects Herb Gardiner (D).

Ouch. He would have looked good as my #4

 

[RustyRazor]

Ouch. He would have looked good as my #4

I'm hoping he'll balance out some of Rob Blake's weak spots.

 

[Dreakmur]

Portland selects Herb Gardiner (D).

One of the many guys in similar spots.

Of the recent picks, I’m not sure Jimmy Thomson isn’t the best, since he combined a lot of different strengths - good defense, toughness, surprising offense, and playoff success.

 

[RustyRazor]

One of the many guys in similar spots.

Of the recent picks, I’m not sure Jimmy Thomson isn’t the best, since he combined a lot of different strengths - good defense, toughness, surprising offense, and playoff success.

Yeah, I had him slotted for my next pick for sure (assuming he got to me) I am good with Gardiner though because he slots naturally into my 2nd pairing whereas I'd have had to put Thomson on my 1st pair.

I had another as my 1B choice after Gardiner this morning who I'd have been fine with taking as well.