ATD 2021 Draft Thread II

[TheDevilMadeMe]

One of the many guys in similar spots.

Of the recent picks, I’m not sure Jimmy Thomson isn’t the best, since he combined a lot of different strengths - good defense, toughness, surprising offense, and playoff success.

I traded down because i would have been fine w either Thomson or Flaman.

Then still had to pick between them.

Ultimately, for me, it went back to Thomson's fairly disappointing Norris record, especially considering the fairly weak competition.

Gardiner is probably a step down (we did discover than he was voted only a 2nd Team All Star in his Hart season), but just a small step.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

Team Canada are proud to select, from Krasnogorsk, Russia, the record holder for the more points at the World Championship in one year, Vladimir Petrov.

 

[tabness]

I'll take steady Steve Larmer

 

[ResilientBeast]

I'm going to continue building my PCHA all star team and select a winger for Lalonde: Mickey MacKay, F

Why am I listing him as a F and why is he going to play RW for the Coyotes this ATD season?

Based on all my research if Foyston is listed as an F there is no reason MacKay isn't as well.

Mickey MacKay is a perfect playmaking winger for Newsy Lalonde and an excellent fit for checking some of the stars of my division with his speedy skating and poke check. His playmaking and puck carrying will help set Lalonde up for some tremendous goals this season. And Lalonde's legendary toughness and fiery temper will ensure that anyone taking liberties with MacKay are promptly dealt with.

1) In all games under eastern rules (Stanely Cup finals in 1915/1918/1921/1922) or the PCHA/WCHL finals prior to the end of the rover in the PCHA, MacKay played RW/LW (according to Trail, The Globe and Mail, and The Calgary Herald).

2) After Taylor retired, the Millionaires/Maroons lucked into getting Frank Boucher from out east. This coincided with the rover being removed from the PCHA. Mackay would spend his remaining time out west playing a little C (Boucher was the regular C), D (including in the 22-23 season for a sizable chunk) and W
1914-15 - C, eastern rules LW (according to Trail)
1915-16 - C
1916-17 - C
1917-18 - C, eastern rules RW/LW
1918-19 - R
1920-21- R
1921-22 - R, part time W. Eastern rules C
1922-23 - MacKay starts the season on D, plays about 8-10 games from there (early Nov-early Jan) before playing wing/RW regularly beside Boucher
1923-24 - W
1924-25 - W
1925-26 - W
1926-27 - Chicago is doing some weird stuff with their roster if you look at the personnel it kinda makes sense (when they get picked we can talk about it) C/W
1927-28 - W/C

Mickey Ion's 1925 All Star team selection notes the following
The Calgary Herald March 17, 1925

Ion selects his all-star lineup

Ion explains that the following team is selected purely on a competitive basis....
MacKay is shifted to center.....

As shown below in the statistics section, 3 of his strongest seasons he played wing

Awards and Achievements:
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1915, 1929)

Bolded are from seasons he was definitely a winger
5 x PCHA First Team All-Star (1915, 1917, 1919, 1922, 1923)
3 x PCHA Second Team All-Star (1916, 1918, 1921)
WCHL First Team All-Star (1925)

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 2nd(1915), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1924), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 10th(1916), 10th(1919), 10th(1921)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1915), 1st(1924), 2nd(1923), 5th(1922), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 9th(1921), 10th(1919)
PCHA Assists – 1st(1922), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1916), 6th(1924), 8th(1921)

WCHL Points – 2nd(1925)
WCHL Goals – 1st(1925)

NHL Points – 13th(1927), 13th(1928)
NHL Goals – 12th(1928), 18th(1927)
NHL Assists – 8th(1927)

Following goals totals are courtesy of Trail Volume 1 when played under eastern rules
1915 Finals as a winger - March 24th 1 goal - Only game played under western rules
1918 Finals as a winger - March 20th 1 goal, March 26th 0 goals, March 30th 0 goals*
1921 Finals as a winger - March 24th 1 goal, March 31st 0 goals
1922 WCHL/PCHA as a winger March 11th 0 goals
1922 Finals as a winger March 17th 1 goal, March 23rd 0 goals, March 28th 0 goals

*Trail notes the following "Mickey was again the outstanding star and his play was reported as sensational"

I can't find a primary source crediting assists, but given the rules regarding forward passing and all the comments that note how the westerners were better at combination play when playing under PCHA rules I'm inclined to believe with modern rules MacKay would thrive.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'm going to continue building my PCHA all star team and select a winger for Lalonde: Mickey MacKay, F

Why am I listing him as a F and why is he going to play RW for the Coyotes this ATD season?

Based on all my research if Foyston is listed as an F there is no reason MacKay isn't as well.

Mickey MacKay is a perfect playmaking winger for Newsy Lalonde and an excellent fit for checking some of the stars of my division with his speedy skating and poke check. His playmaking and puck carrying will help set Lalonde up for some tremendous goals this season. And Lalonde's legendary toughness and fiery temper will ensure that anyone taking liberties with MacKay are promptly dealt with.

1) In all games under eastern rules (Stanely Cup finals in 1915/1918/1921/1922) or the PCHA/WCHL finals prior to the end of the rover in the PCHA, MacKay played RW/LW (according to Trail, The Globe and Mail, and The Calgary Herald).

2) After Taylor retired, the Millionaires/Maroons lucked into getting Frank Boucher from out east. This coincided with the rover being removed from the PCHA. Mackay would spend his remaining time out west playing a little C (Boucher was the regular C), D (including in the 22-23 season for a sizable chunk) and W
1914-15 - C, eastern rules LW (according to Trail)
1915-16 - C
1916-17 - C
1917-18 - C, eastern rules RW/LW
1918-19 - R
1920-21- R
1921-22 - R, part time W. Eastern rules C
1922-23 - MacKay starts the season on D, plays about 8-10 games from there (early Nov-early Jan) before playing wing/RW regularly beside Boucher
1923-24 - W
1924-25 - W
1925-26 - W
1926-27 - Chicago is doing some weird stuff with their roster if you look at the personnel it kinda makes sense (when they get picked we can talk about it) C/W
1927-28 - W/C

Mickey Ion's 1925 All Star team selection notes the following
The Calgary Herald March 17, 1925


As shown below in the statistics section, 3 of his strongest seasons he played wing

Awards and Achievements:
2 x Stanley Cup Champion (1915, 1929)

Bolded are from seasons he was definitely a winger
5 x PCHA First Team All-Star (1915, 1917, 1919, 1922, 1923)
3 x PCHA Second Team All-Star (1916, 1918, 1921)
WCHL First Team All-Star (1925)

Scoring:
PCHA Points – 2nd(1915), 2nd(1922), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1924), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 10th(1916), 10th(1919), 10th(1921)
PCHA Goals – 1st(1915), 1st(1924), 2nd(1923), 5th(1922), 6th(1917), 9th(1918), 9th(1921), 10th(1919)
PCHA Assists – 1st(1922), 2nd(1915), 2nd(1923), 3rd(1916), 6th(1924), 8th(1921)

WCHL Points – 2nd(1925)
WCHL Goals – 1st(1925)

NHL Points – 13th(1927), 13th(1928)
NHL Goals – 12th(1928), 18th(1927)
NHL Assists – 8th(1927)

Following goals totals are courtesy of Trail Volume 1 when played under eastern rules
1915 Finals as a winger - March 24th 1 goal - Only game played under western rules
1918 Finals as a winger - March 20th 1 goal, March 26th 0 goals, March 30th 0 goals*
1921 Finals as a winger - March 24th 1 goal, March 31st 0 goals
1922 WCHL/PCHA as a winger March 11th 0 goals
1922 Finals as a winger March 17th 1 goal, March 23rd 0 goals, March 28th 0 goals

*Trail notes the following "Mickey was again the outstanding star and his play was reported as sensational"

I can't find a primary source crediting assists, but given the rules regarding forward passing and all the comments that note how the westerners were better at combination play when playing under PCHA rules I'm inclined to believe with modern rules MacKay would thrive.

I almost picked Mackay to play him at wing, but I wasn't convinced he could, especially not RW.

I saw some games when he was mentioned as a LWer with Frank Boucher, but the damn Vancouver Sun newspapers has a habit of not being explicit.

Still, nice outside-the-box strategy.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I almost picked Mackay to play him at wing, but I wasn't convinced he could, especially not RW.

I saw some games when he was mentioned as a LWer with Frank Boucher, but the damn Vancouver Sun newspapers has a habit of not being explicit.

Still, nice outside-the-box strategy.

I think all Mackay's significant work was done primarily at C/R though? A lot of his defensive ability is from being center and being Nighbor-light so how well does it translate to wing? Maybe I'm wrong.

For example Thompson was a RW for a few seasons with New York before switching back to LW in Chicago and he's listed as LW.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think all Mackay's significant work was done primarily at C though? A lot of his defensive ability is from being center and being Nighbor-light so how well does it translate to wing? Maybe I'm wrong.

For example Thompson was a RW for a few seasons with New York before switching back to LW in Chicago and he's listed as LW.

Please look at my post, 3 of Mackay's best 4 seasons are at wing

1922-23, 1923-24 and 1924-25

1914-15 he was a center while Taylor played rover.

Edit: Nighbor also played wing during his one season in Vancouver and was noted for his poke check and defence even then. I don't think MacKay will have any issues defending but lining up at RW

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

MacKay used to always be listed as C/RW

 

[BenchBrawl]

But it does say something that a guy like Pitre spent some time on D. And according to reports of the time, he did quite well defensively.

I mean, it at least shows that his mind for the game wasn’t offense-only. A guy like Bobby Hull couldn’t move to the back end and play a responsible two-way game. Pitre did. But yeah, it wasn’t completely out of the ordinary to see that during his era either.

So yeah, I wasn’t trying to claim Pitre was some two-way monster with a selke-level defensive game. Just that he wasn’t necessarily Nikita Kucherov either bringing 100% offense only, even if the descriptions of his defensive play were while he was playing D.

Of course his primary strength is scoring goals.

Bobby Hull was a better defensive player than Didier Pitre. Bobby Hull was not Brett Hull.

 

[ResilientBeast]

MacKay used to always be listed as C/RW

Trail has him playing LW and RW in eastern rules games seemingly interchangeably, the Globe and Mail and Calgary herald list him a W usually opposite of the opposing RW but occasionally the LW.

If Foyston is a F MacKay is too.

Foyston is a rover who moved to center in 1918-19 when Walker was moved back to rover. Then played various wing positions after Seattle

 

[BenchBrawl]

Bobby Hull was a defensive black hole.
So the comp was apt.

Bobby Hull was not a defensive black hole. I don't see why you guys think that. He was neutral.

I just watched a few games with him, I saw it first hand. He would obviously take some risks because he was the offensive engine, but a "defensive black hole" is something else than what he was.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Furthermore, Didier Pitre was not as physical as Bobby Hull, from what I've read. He was a gentle giant type. Hull played a very physical game.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bobby Hull was a better defensive player than Didier Pitre. Bobby Hull was not Brett Hull.

We know enough about Bobby to know he was a black hole defensively through most of the 1960s but got pretty good at some point by the 1970s.

Do we know enough about the stages of Pitre's career?

(Edit to respond to your edit - what year were your video watching?)

 

[BenchBrawl]

We know enough about Bobby to know he was a black hole defensively through most of the 1960s but got pretty good at some point by the 1970s.

Do we know enough about the stages of Pitre's career?

Watch the games, he wasn't.

He was high risk, but not a defensive black hole. He was not a "controller disconnected" type.

 

[ImporterExporter]

ATD 2015 Bio Thread

Pitre bio I did back in 2015.

 

[BenchBrawl]

We know enough about Bobby to know he was a black hole defensively through most of the 1960s but got pretty good at some point by the 1970s.

Do we know enough about the stages of Pitre's career?

(Edit to respond to your edit - what year were your video watching?)

1965

 

[tabness]

Defensive play is so much about reputation lol we see it time and time on this thread.

I will say and I hate to kind of admit it, but Bobby Hull is easily the most spectacular original six player from what I have seen, even above Detroit's own Gordie Howe (granted Howe's best was said to be in the early fifties and these games I've seen are in the sixties, but Howe wasn't too far removed from his best then and part of the early fifties dominance must be because of the quality of the league/top end talent compared to the sixties). Just an unbelievable talent, completely era proof.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Please look at my post, 3 of Mackay's best 4 seasons are at wing

1922-23, 1923-24 and 1924-25

1914-15 he was a center while Taylor played rover.

Edit: Nighbor also played wing during his one season in Vancouver and was noted for his poke check and defence even then. I don't think MacKay will have any issues defending but lining up at RW

I looked into this, and what I found was LW. But the Vancouver Sun sucks, it's almost never explicit.

I'm not 100% sure, but you'd need to go game by game and show me he can play at RW, because I didn't pick him because of that LW thing I've seen.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The thing about Bobby Hull and defense is that since he often had the puck, it would sometimes lead to turnovers. He will obviously be the one to whom it happens the most. But when I looked at him I didn't see his son at all. He was a better playmaker, better to cover his man and more physical than Brett. And a much better skater. For defense he would look like a generic player (and a generic player in the 1960s is not a defensive black hole), plus the turnovers.

In one game at some point he failed to cover Gordie Howe in time near the net and Howe scored. That's the bad defensive play I remember, but I'd need to look back to see if it was even his job to do that.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I looked into this, and what I found was LW. But the Vancouver Sun sucks, it's almost never explicit.

I'm not 100% sure, but you'd need to go game by game and show me he can play at RW, because I didn't pick him because of that LW thing I've seen.

Yeah a lot of the listings just have "Forward" for a bunch of them.

 

[Habsfan18]

Bobby Hull was a better defensive player than Didier Pitre. Bobby Hull was not Brett Hull.

Well we know Pitre was a guy who was moved to defense and excelled enough to be considered one of the games best at that position for the time he played. As others have stated, he wasn’t necessarily a defensive forward. But by all accounts he seemed to do well defensively when he was moved. And not just offense. He was described as a solid defender when playing D.

I’ve never considered Bobby Hull - in the 1960’s - solid defensively. And I’ve watched the available games as well. I wouldn’t say he’s a complete black hole though.

But I wouldn’t say Hull was better defensively than Pitre. To be fair though we don’t have as much information on Pitre as we do for Hull.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Well we know Pitre was a guy who was moved to defense and excelled enough to be considered one of the games best at that position for the time he played. As others have stated, he wasn’t necessarily a defensive forward. But by all accounts he seemed to do well defensively when he was moved. And not just offense. He was described as a solid defender when playing D.

I’ve never considered Bobby Hull - in the 1960’s - solid defensively. And I’ve watched the available games as well. I wouldn’t say he’s a complete black hole though.

But I wouldn’t say Hull was better defensively than Pitre. To be fair though we don’t have as much information on Pitre as we do for Hull.

Hey, fair enough about Pitre, I don't know. I go with "what we know", but this might not be the real picture. You go and prove us wrong !

 

[Habsfan18]

Hey, fair enough about Pitre, I don't know. I go with "what we know", but this might not be the real picture. You go and prove us wrong !

I can only go on the information given, but I will certainly do as much research as I can fit in.

But I should also state I’m not expecting Pitre to be some two-way force for me. He is primarily there for his shot and speed.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I looked into this, and what I found was LW. But the Vancouver Sun sucks, it's almost never explicit.

I'm not 100% sure, but you'd need to go game by game and show me he can play at RW, because I didn't pick him because of that LW thing I've seen.

As per Trail Volume 1
1915 - March 24 - LW
1918 - March 20 - LW
1918 - March 26 - RW
1918 - March 30 - LW
1921 - March 24 - LW
1921 - March 31 - RW
1922 - March 11 - RW (listed W opposite RW against Regina)
1922 - March 17 - LW (listed opposite Reg Noble)
1922 - March 23 - LW (listed opposite Reg Noble)
1922 - March 28 - C (listed opposite Reg Noble)
1923 - March 7 - W but unclear which
1923 - March 12 - RW listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 16 - Rw listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 19 - RW listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 23 - Rw listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 26 - RW listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 29 - RW listed opposite a RW
1924 - March 3 - F listed opposite a RW i think
1924 - March 7 - listed sub - skipping games where listed as sub
1924 - March 12 - F listed opposite a RW i think
1924 - March 18 - RW
1924 - March 20 - RW

That's just what's listed in Trail. I don't have time to go through his entire career and note every individual appearance. But during this time period as I noted in my pick post he is absolutely a winger and should be listed as , F

Once they got Frank Boucher the Millionaires/Maroons put him a D, LW or RW.

He's a forward not C/RW, C/LW or a C.

 

[BenchBrawl]

As per Trail Volume 1
1915 - March 24 - LW
1918 - March 20 - LW
1918 - March 26 - RW
1918 - March 30 - LW
1921 - March 24 - LW
1921 - March 31 - RW
1922 - March 11 - RW (listed W opposite RW against Regina)
1922 - March 17 - LW (listed opposite Reg Noble)
1922 - March 23 - LW (listed opposite Reg Noble)
1922 - March 28 - C (listed opposite Reg Noble)
1923 - March 7 - W but unclear which
1923 - March 12 - RW listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 16 - Rw listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 19 - RW listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 23 - Rw listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 26 - RW listed opposite a RW
1923 - March 29 - RW listed opposite a RW
1924 - March 3 - F listed opposite a RW i think
1924 - March 7 - listed sub - skipping games where listed as sub
1924 - March 12 - F listed opposite a RW i think
1924 - March 18 - RW
1924 - March 20 - RW

That's just what's listed in Trail. I don't have time to go through his entire career and note every individual appearance. But during this time period as I noted in my pick post he is absolutely a winger and should be listed as , F

I don't trust the Trail. I want to see at least 3 games with my own eyes directly from a home game newspaper where he was RW playing with Frank Boucher.

I mean, I straight up didn't pick him because I didn't think I could justify him at RW. But I also know it's possible that with work, he would be legit. I just didn't want to do it.

Since you have the dates, it shouldn't be that hard to find a couple of games directly from the source.