ATD 2011 Draft Thread VII

[overpass]

With selection 419, the Inglewood Jacks are going to continue in the process of attempting to win games 0 - -1 and be proud to welcome defenseman Glen Harmon (yes, an arrbez special from what I’ve found haha) to the squad.

Not surprised at all you picked him here.

Have you seen this article from his rookie year? It speaks highly of his ability to move the puck out of his own end.

On the other hand, I haven't seen a lot on his defensive abilities. The Reardon - Bouchard pairing was Montreal's main shutdown pairing, I thought Harmon was more of a puck mover.

Also, in 1947-48, he scored at least 2 of his 10 goals in a game where he was filling in as a winger. Not sure how much he did that. At most he was tied with Pat Egan in goal scoring by a defenceman for that season.

OVERPASS, I NEED YOU!

TDMM claims that you have evidence to show that Graham took draws on the PK.

All I remember of that discussion is that Graham and Larmer were the primary penalty killers on Chicago, so one of those RW's would have been taking draws.

If you want more, use the search function to find what I said on Graham.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

Ok guys who's on the clock and what time does it expire for them. I have to work today and dont want to leave a 12 man list. I think I should be good till I get home. I'll be back on around 6:00pm-6:30pm eastern time today

 

[JFA87-66-99]

Epic Art Duncan Biography!

Comments? Discussion?

I actually think there is a legitimate argument that from 1922-23 to 1923-24 he was the best player in the world.

Awsome Awesome bio. I wanted Duncan with my next pick. He's a player that always intrested me for some reason. I think he was better than he gets credit for.

 

[markrander87]

The Cincinnati Fireworks are please to Select D Viktor Kuzkin.

Robinson-Stanley
Davydov-Kuzkin

Kuzkin began his hockey career as a center forward which helped him to become a successful scoring blueliner with a slick puck handling a skating skills. He became famous for his strong positioning skills amd ability to lead his team in the following tatical game plan. The Soviet defense pair of Kuzkin-Davydov was argueably one of the best in Soviet Hockey History

-http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1972/yroster/ru04.htm

 

[DoMakc]

The Detroit Red Wings select:

Ivan Hlinka, C
​

 

[BraveCanadian]

The Gwinnett Gladiators select goaltender Tom Barrasso.

I gotta say.. picking up a guy who backstopped back to back cup wins, had a Vezina, and a few allstar team selections this late in the draft seems like a pretty good pickup to me.

Even if he is a jerk.

 

[VanIslander]

Davydov-Kuzkin

You're welcome.

 

[Sturminator]

Comments? Discussion?

I actually think there is a legitimate argument that from 1922-23 to 1923-24 he was the best player in the world.

You forgot about Jan Suchy as another defensemen who led a professional league in scoring, and maybe Joe Simpson, as well...though I'm not sure about that one.

Duncan is a very interesting player, likely underrated around here, as many old western stars have been. His three first team all-star selections in the PCHA stand out, though the second team selections mean nothing to me in a league that iced six regular defensemen during Duncan's prime.

Duncan the best player in the world in 22-23?! Where do you get that idea? That seems to have been one of his less impressive seasons. He was 3rd in defenseman scoring in the PCHA that year, which is not impressive, at all. Typo? But an argument can definitely be made that he was the best player in the world in 23-24, when he led the PCHA in scoring. The thing is that 23-24 was a major outlier for Duncan, who otherwise peaked at 8th in league scoring - still good for a defenseman, but nothing world-shaking.

I am also pretty skeptical of later PCHA all-star finishes among defensemen, even the first teamers. Back when Ernie Johnson and the Patrick boys dominated the PCHA all-star slots on defense, I think they meant a lot, but Duncan's all-star credentials come from a much softer later era. The PCHA had a lot of forward talent throughout, but they didn't seem to have adequately replaced the blueline talent they had at the beginning. There is still an undrafted PCHA defenseman who also has three 1st team all-star finishes to his name, and that guy actually beat out Lester Patrick one year. Maybe he's been underrated, as well? I dunno.

Duncan looks to me like a good offensive defenseman who had one great season. I think he's been underrated, but not by 100 picks. 100 picks higher would put Duncan on the level of Joe Simpson, Red Dutton and Frank Patrick, and I just don't see that from the evidence we have thus far.

 

[overpass]

You forgot about Jan Suchy as another defensemen who led a professional league in scoring, and maybe Joe Simpson, as well...though I'm not sure about that one.

Duncan is a very interesting player, likely underrated around here, as many old western stars have been. His three first team all-star selections in the PCHA stand out, though the second team selections mean nothing to me in a league that iced six regular defensemen during Duncan's prime.

Duncan the best player in the world in 22-23?! Where do you get that idea? That seems to have been one of his less impressive seasons. He was 3rd in defenseman scoring in the PCHA that year, which is not impressive, at all. Typo? But an argument can definitely be made that he was the best player in the world in 23-24, when he led the PCHA in scoring. The thing is that 23-24 was a major outlier for Duncan, who otherwise peaked at 8th in league scoring - still good for a defenseman, but nothing world-shaking.

I am also pretty skeptical of later PCHA all-star finishes among defensemen, even the first teamers. Back when Ernie Johnson and the Patrick boys dominated the PCHA all-star slots on defense, I think they meant a lot, but Duncan's all-star credentials come from a much softer later era. The PCHA had a lot of forward talent throughout, but they didn't seem to have adequately replaced the blueline talent they had at the beginning. There is still an undrafted PCHA defenseman who also has three 1st team all-star finishes to his name, and that guy actually beat out Lester Patrick one year. Maybe he's been underrated, as well? I dunno.

Duncan looks to me like a good offensive defenseman who had one great season. I think he's been underrated, but not by 100 picks. 100 picks higher would put Duncan on the level of Joe Simpson, Red Dutton and Frank Patrick, and I just don't see that from the evidence we have thus far.

Simpson was outscored by teammate Duke Keats in all of his big scoring seasons.

Duncan isn't even a slam dunk as best offensive defenceman in the world in 23-24. Not with Georges Boucher just one point off the league scoring lead in the NHL. Hard to say Duncan was the best defenceman in the world with any certainty with Gerard, Boucher, and Simpson all peaking at that time.

 

[Sturminator]

I gotta say.. picking up a guy who backstopped back to back cup wins, had a Vezina, and a few allstar team selections this late in the draft seems like a pretty good pickup to me.

I think that once you get past the upper crust of goalies in this thing, the differences in quality between the netminders don't really justify the differences in price (so says the guy who drafted Grant Fuhr twice in a row in the top-200).

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think that once you get past the upper crust of goalies in this thing, the differences in quality between the netminders don't really justify the differences in price (so says the guy who drafted Grant Fuhr twice in a row in the top-200).

That is probably true for most of the draft.

I think once you get past the obviously special players, we're really picking players more by resume/fame/reputation than by large differences in their abilities.

It probably just happens to goalies sooner because they have the fewest positions to fill at any given time in the league here and for real.

 

[VanIslander]

Pre-draft we thought if we don't get a goalie early (top-100ish pick up to Parent) then we'd be better off waiting until much later as the next 15-20 goalies were close enough in worth that the value was in waiting and getting one later. But not too late. The last 5 to 7 starters were deemed too big a step down to wait for. Hence, when Worters, Rayner and Vachon went, Lehman was snapped up.

 

[Sturminator]

Pre-draft we thought if we don't get a goalie early (top-100ish pick up to Parent) then we'd be better off waiting until much later as the next 15-20 goalies were close enough in worth that the value was in waiting and getting one later. But not too late. The last 5 to 7 starters were deemed too big a step down to wait for. Hence, when Worters, Rayner and Vachon went, Lehman was snapped up.

We shall see what the GMs who still need a starter can come up with as arguments for their guys. I'm not much of an expert on the goalies who are available from here on out, especially the older ones. Lehman and Barrasso were the last two that I identified as good lower-tier goalies whose value is obvious and easy to sell, but that is at least partially due to my laziness and lack of knowledge on some of the guys who will end up starters in this thing. I think we've still got another 5-6 starters to be drafted.

 

[markrander87]

Perspective

Out of all of the defenseman selected so far approx. 35-40 of them played during the 1960's. Out of those roughly 30-35, I think only 4 of them were Russian: Vasiliev, Ragulin, Davydov and Kuzkin.

Was the amount of top end talent in Canada really 10x better then that in Russia? Just an observation, i'm not trying to prove anything ground breaking here. We saw in 72 how small the gap was between top end talent between the two countries.

 

[VanIslander]

Was the amount of top end talent in Canada really 10x better then that in Russia? Just an observation, i'm not trying to prove anything ground breaking here. We saw in 72 how small the gap was between top end talent between the two countries.

The late 60s USSR players may be undervalued a bit, but it's hard to find defensemen from that era (other than the few that have been drafted) who were stars in Russia except for one player who gets drafted in lesser drafts the last couple of times (I didn't look back farther). There are early 60s/late 50s star Soviet defensemen but they barely crack the MLDs it seems. However fast one thinks the Russians developed hockey, one has to think the best of the late 60s players (67,68,69,70,71) would be successful against NHL players, unless one suddenly magically thinks 1972 pixie dust came. The fact is 1972 was a wake up call for North Americans that in fact the Russians were capable of top level hockey, and probably had been for a number of years, that number being 5 years? 7 years? 10 years? somewhere thereabouts.

 

[overpass]

Out of all of the defenseman selected so far approx. 30-35 of them played during the 1960's. Out of those roughly 30-35, only 3 of them were Russian. Ragulin,Davydov and Kuzkin.

Was the amount of top end talent in Canada really 10x better then that in Russia? Just an observation, i'm not trying to prove anything ground breaking here. We saw in 72 how small the gap was between top end talent between the two countries.

I think the gap in talent was still large enough in 1972. Canada outchanced and outscored the Soviets pretty thoroughly at even strength, despite not having Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull on the team. The Soviets were much better on special teams, where Canada's lack of experience playing together probably hurt the most. Tretiak was also way, way better than Dryden.

The Soviets probably closed the gap a lot more by the end of the 1970s, but I don't think they were there yet in 1972.

I expect Canada was probably still a ways ahead in the 1960s. But it's a fair question - like you say a ton of Canadian defencemen from their era have been taken already.

 

[VanIslander]

I think the gap in talent was still large enough in 1972.

Having watched the 1972 Summit Series in its entirety two times I have to say I disagree. And the players and commentators of the series sure disagree with you.

And the Russians won the series, don't you know it? They claim to, as they scored more total goals.

 

[BM67]

Out of all of the defenseman selected so far approx. 35-40 of them played during the 1960's. Out of those roughly 30-35, I think only 4 of them were Russian: Vasiliev, Ragulin, Davydov and Kuzkin.

Was the amount of top end talent in Canada really 10x better then that in Russia? Just an observation, i'm not trying to prove anything ground breaking here. We saw in 72 how small the gap was between top end talent between the two countries.

Lutchenko and Ivanov as well.

I don't think they are 10x as good, but there is much more than 10x as much info in English on the NHL players.

 

[overpass]

Having watched the 1972 Summit Series in its entirety two times I have to say I disagree. And the players and commentators of the series sure disagree with you.

And the Russians won the series, don't you know it? They claim to, as they scored more total goals.

My statement was based on the results of a project to record scoring chances for the Summit Series. The total was 208 scoring chances for Canada, 158 for Russia. At even strength it was 171 for Canada, 125 for Russia.

Links to the numbers. Scoring chances for both teams, Canada first.
Game 1 32-21
Game 2 16-12
Game 3 30-22
Game 4 30-28
Game 5 30-37
Game 6 19-5
Game 7 19-12
Game 8 32-21

A scoring chance ratio of 208 to 158 is about what you'd expect to see from one of the best teams in the league playing an average to below average team. Say the Vancouver Canucks against the New York Rangers. But the Rangers could take the Canucks to 7 games in a short series.

1972 has major implications for rating Canadian players vs Russian players. I don't think anyone really thinks the Russian talent was just as good as the Canadian talent. Otherwise Russian players would go a lot higher than they do now.

 

[vecens24]

Not surprised at all you picked him here.

Have you seen this article from his rookie year? It speaks highly of his ability to move the puck out of his own end.

On the other hand, I haven't seen a lot on his defensive abilities. The Reardon - Bouchard pairing was Montreal's main shutdown pairing, I thought Harmon was more of a puck mover.

Also, in 1947-48, he scored at least 2 of his 10 goals in a game where he was filling in as a winger. Not sure how much he did that. At most he was tied with Pat Egan in goal scoring by a defenceman for that season.



All I remember of that discussion is that Graham and Larmer were the primary penalty killers on Chicago, so one of those RW's would have been taking draws.

If you want more, use the search function to find what I said on Graham.

As far as I could tell, that was a completely isolated incident in that season. Not sure if the guy he was replacing for that game will get drafted, so I'm going to err on the side of caution and just not say his name, but yeah he was filling in for an injury. It seems as if most if not the rest of his games (obviously I can't find them all) even that season he was playing defense. And in doing research last night I could not come up with another game of it through 1944-1951. So it was at most very rare for him to do that, and possibly an isolated incident entirely.

 

[seventieslord]

I gotta say.. picking up a guy who backstopped back to back cup wins, had a Vezina, and a few allstar team selections this late in the draft seems like a pretty good pickup to me.

Even if he is a jerk.

Try getting him in the MLD

Out of all of the defenseman selected so far approx. 35-40 of them played during the 1960's. Out of those roughly 30-35, I think only 4 of them were Russian: Vasiliev, Ragulin, Davydov and Kuzkin.

Was the amount of top end talent in Canada really 10x better then that in Russia? Just an observation, i'm not trying to prove anything ground breaking here. We saw in 72 how small the gap was between top end talent between the two countries.

Is it really 35-40? That seems pretty high. I don't have the energy to make a list right now but someone should. And not just guys who played a bit in the 60s... use 7 seasons as a minimum.

No, the top-end talent wasn't 10 times better, but yes, there could have been 10 times as many D-men as good as the spot we're at in the draft right now (Dacydov for Russians, Harris for Canadians) 10 times more deep is a possibility.

 

[markrander87]

Lutchenko and Ivanov as well.

I don't think they are 10x as good, but there is much more than 10x as much info in English on the NHL players.

Ya I did a quick skim, I figured I'd miss 1 or 2. Either way the ratio is roughly 9:1 -10-1. I am not debating that Canada was indeed the better team and by more than the results even show, but even at 9:1 it seems rather high.

 

[seventieslord]

My statement was based on the results of a project to record scoring chances for the Summit Series. The total was 208 scoring chances for Canada, 158 for Russia. At even strength it was 171 for Canada, 125 for Russia.

Links to the numbers. Scoring chances for both teams, Canada first.
Game 1 32-21
Game 2 16-12
Game 3 30-22
Game 4 30-28
Game 5 30-37
Game 6 19-5
Game 7 19-12
Game 8 32-21

A scoring chance ratio of 208 to 158 is about what you'd expect to see from one of the best teams in the league playing an average to below average team. Say the Vancouver Canucks against the New York Rangers. But the Rangers could take the Canucks to 7 games in a short series.

1972 has major implications for rating Canadian players vs Russian players. I don't think anyone really thinks the Russian talent was just as good as the Canadian talent. Otherwise Russian players would go a lot higher than they do now.

I agree, I always have said that in 1972, the Soviets were "close, but not quite there". They had the important element of surprise, they played together all year unlike the Canadians, and three of the top-5 players in the world were Canadian and not playing. (maybe I'm being generous when I say Howe was top-5?)

 

[BM67]

Ya I did a quick skim, I figured I'd miss 1 or 2. Either way the ratio is roughly 9:1 -10-1. I am not debating that Canada was indeed the better team and by more than the results even show, but even at 9:1 it seems rather high.

6 out of 35 is 6 to 29, so slightly less than 5 to 1. Then consider that several of those 29 are other Europeans of the same era and you are down near 3 to 1.

 

[markrander87]

6 out of 35 is 6 to 29, so slightly less than 5 to 1. Then consider that several of those 29 are other Europeans of the same era and you are down near 3 to 1.

So 4 Russian and roughly 25-30 Canadian Defenseman during the 60's. Vasiliev is not included. 4 out of 29-34 so 7:1 8:1? Am I not correct. Even if it is 5:1, 6:1 it is a simple observation in showing how under-valued Soviet players of that time are.