ATD 2011 Draft Thread VII

[VMBM]

That is definitely not true. I have done a search for Novy on Google News Archive, and he definitely played with Martinec. I saw a good amount of scoring plays where both Martinec and Novy figured into it at the same time.

They were never regular linemates, but they did play some shifts, power plays and even full games on the same line; for example, in the 1976 Canada Cup and 1977 World Championships, at least.

I'd be VERY interested to hear what the knock on Novy truly is. His Czechoslovak league resume is excellent, of course, and while his international career pales somewhat in comparison, it wasn't really bad at all.

 

[VMBM]

He lacked flash. He's the anti-Martinec. Substance over style.

Yeah, of course Martinec was style over substance.

Between 1975 and '81, Martinec and Novy played for Czechoslovakia in international tournaments; did Novy kick Martinec's butt somehow, scoring-wise?

 

[VMBM]

Come on, VMBM, you're not going to take the softball Dreakmur launched at you?

You don't miss much, do you?

 

[jarek]

Yeah, of course Martinec was style over substance.

Between 1975 and '81, Martinec and Novy played for Czechoslovakia in international tournaments; did Novy kick Martinec's butt somehow, scoring-wise?

Yeah.. he did. Check out Novy's scoring finishes.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yeah, of course Martinec was style over substance.

Between 1975 and '81, Martinec and Novy played for Czechoslovakia in international tournaments; did Novy kick Martinec's butt somehow, scoring-wise?

Novy put up 85 points over that time.

Martinec's stats on his euro hockey profile look to be incomplete... unless he really did only score 42.

 

[jarek]

According to SIHR, between 75-81, Martinec had 88 points internationally, including a dominating 20 points in 10 games at the 75 WEC-A tournament. That same year, he led his team in Olympic scoring, with 10 points in 8 games (this appears to have been tops in the tournament as well). Actually, that's 1976, not 75. That means he had 99 points, not 88.

 

[VMBM]

Yeah.. he did. Check out Novy's scoring finishes.

Okay, here goes:

1975 WC
Martinec: 11 points
Novy: 8 points

1976 Winter Olympics
Novy: 5 points
Martinec: 5 points

1976 WC
Martinec: 20 points
Novy: 15 points

1976 Canada Cup
Novy: 8 points
Martinec: 7 points

1977 WC
Novy: 16 points
Martinec 15 points

1978 WC
Martinec: 8 points
Novy: 5 points

1979 WC
Martinec: 8 points
Novy: 2 points

1980 Winter Olympics
Novy: 15 points
Martinec: 2 points

1981 WC
Novy: 8 points
Martinec: 8 points

Note: Martinec was injured already in the 1st game in Lake Placid, although I think he played another game there too. Novy didn't play all the games in the 1978 and 1979 WCs - Martinec missed 1 game in 1979.

You might call that butt-kicking, but I certainly don't. Not to mention that Martinec's ntl team career lasted about 12 years, Novy's only about 7.

 

[jarek]

Okay, here goes:

1975 WC
Martinec: 11 points
Novy: 8 points

1976 Winter Olympics
Novy: 5 points
Martinec: 5 points

1976 WC
Martinec: 20 points
Novy: 15 points

1976 Canada Cup
Novy: 8 points
Martinec: 7 points

1977 WC
Novy: 16 points
Martinec 15 points

1978 WC
Martinec: 8 points
Novy: 5 points

1979 WC
Martinec: 8 points
Novy: 2 points

1980 Winter Olympics
Novy: 15 points
Martinec: 2 points

1981 WC
Novy: 8 points
Martinec: 8 points

Note: Martinec was injured already in the 1st game in Lake Placid, although I think he played another game there too. Novy didn't play all the games in the 1978 and 1979 WCs - Martinec missed 1 game in 1979.

You might call that butt-kicking, but I certainly don't. Not to mention that Martinec's ntl team career lasted about 12 years, Novy's only about 7.

I thought you meant domestically, where Novy kicked the **** out of EVERYONE.

 

[Dreakmur]

Okay, here goes:

1975 WC
Martinec: 11 points
Novy: 8 points

1976 Winter Olympics
Novy: 5 points
Martinec: 5 points

1976 WC
Martinec: 20 points
Novy: 15 points

1976 Canada Cup
Novy: 8 points
Martinec: 7 points

1977 WC
Novy: 16 points
Martinec 15 points

1978 WC
Martinec: 8 points
Novy: 5 points

1979 WC
Martinec: 8 points
Novy: 2 points

1980 Winter Olympics
Novy: 15 points
Martinec: 2 points

1981 WC
Novy: 8 points
Martinec: 8 points

Note: Martinec was injured already in the 1st game in Lake Placid, although I think he played another game there too. Novy didn't play all the games in the 1978 and 1979 WCs - Martinec missed 1 game in 1979.

You might call that butt-kicking, but I certainly don't. Not to mention that Martinec's ntl team career lasted about 12 years, Novy's only about 7.

I never said Matinec wasn't good. I said he he's more style than substance.

 

[jarek]

Here are the top Czechoslovak scorers in WCs, Olympics and Canada Cups (the list seems to have no pre-1960s players, but that doesn't make a difference here):



No, don't get me wrong; I think Novy is terribly underrated. But at this point, I think calling him better than Martinec is revisionism.

You should probably remove that list, WAY too many undrafteds, haha.

I am NOT calling Novy better than Martinec!!! Thank you!!!!

 

[vecens24]

You should probably remove that list, WAY too many undrafteds, haha.

I am NOT calling Novy better than Martinec!!! Thank you!!!!

Actually I already took care of that.....Sorry VMBM

 

[Dreakmur]

I am NOT calling Novy better than Martinec!!! Thank you!!!!

I am

 

[vecens24]

This is way too hard.. You guys might wanna consider sending out lists.

you've got to be ****ing kidding me.

by the way that was me going easy on you because you always piss and moan at people for holding up the draft by not sending out lists and now you are by not being prepared.

who wants/can take a list? by the way my list is a one player list and its a full bio...if he gets selected in the next two picks then ill probably just be skipped.

 

[vecens24]

Then go with the next guy on your list...

yeah..and by the way yes you ARE holding things up because the next two people after you ARE here. even though the next 2 or so people after me aren't here, doesn't mean the next two after you aren't here, because you knwo they are.

And yes by the way I probably wouldn't care if it was anyone else.

 

[VMBM]

Actually I already took care of that.....Sorry VMBM

My apologies; first, I remember the rule, and then shortly after, I don't (when I'm 'upset' )

Scoring in major internationals (WCs, Olympics, Canada Cups):

■135 pts – 69 go – 66 as – 15 app — Vladimir MARTINEC
■91 pts – 53 go – 38 as – 11 app — Milan NOVY

 

[Dreakmur]

My apologies; first, I remember the rule, and then shortly after, I don't (when I'm 'upset' )

Scoring in major internationals (WCs, Olympics, Canada Cups):

In how many games each?

 

[jarek]

Alright, I'll take a guy who was a hard hitting defensive master, who excelled on the PK and contributed a decent amount of offense as well. He was also a great leader. Dirk Graham.

OVERPASS, I NEED YOU!

TDMM claims that you have evidence to show that Graham took draws on the PK.

 

[MadArcand]

The Whalers select a two-way, tough cornerman with leadership and the much needed ability to feed goalscoring centers: J.P. Parise, LW

 

[vecens24]

With selection 419, the Inglewood Jacks are going to continue in the process of attempting to win games 0 - -1 and be proud to welcome defenseman Glen Harmon (yes, an arrbez special from what I’ve found haha) to the squad. Harmon was a member of two Canadiens Stanley Cup winning squads, one in 1944, the other in 1946. Along with the Stanley Cups, he was also a two time Second team NHL All Star (1945, 1949). Harmon combined physicality with finesse to make him one of the best defensemen of his day. From the day he stepped into the NHL, he was immediately an impact player, which can be evidenced by his runner up Calder Trophy finish in 1943, despite only playing in half of the games that season as a call-up. He twice led all defensemen in goals scored. And to show his well rounded game (and this is taken from a past bio by my esteemed colleague arrbez), he went 34 games without allowing a goal against. Also, he was a Second Team All Star in 1945 at Right defence so despite being left-handed, he will fit perfectly next to either Gadsby or Ragulin, depending on who we decide to put with him. Harmon was known primarily around these parts as a defensive DMan from what I’ve seen in the past, but hopefully some of the stats and quotes will prove him to be a very well rounded DMan good at both ends of the ice.

Accomplishments:
Two-time Second Team NHL All Star (1945, 1949)
Two Time Stanley Cup Winner (1944, 1946)
Played in NHL All Star Game in 1949 and 1950
Defensemen goals: 1st: 1948, 1949. 4th: 1946, 1947 6th: 1945
Defensemen assists: 7th : 1946, 1950 8th: 1949 9th: 1951 10th: 1944

Quotes:
From the Canadiens History website:

A sound positional defenseman with the offensive skills to support his forwards, Harmon was an able skater who could carry the puck himself or relay it to teammates with his crisp, sharp passes.

His stocky frame and low center of gravity were put to good use, thrilling the Forum crowds as Harmon laid some of the league’s most jarring bodychecks on enemy players.

The Windsor Daily Star April 5, 1945:

Glen Harmon was the other member of the Canadiens to get all-star rating, being named to the right defence position…

Montreal Gazette December 7 1945

XXX teamed up with the speedy Glen Harmon…

Montreal Gazette November 12 1945

The Habitants finally scored when Glen Harmon pulled the trigger from well out on a ganging play….. the rubber winding up in the back of the net without the goalie making a move.

New York Times October 22, 1948

In the final period, the Canadiens tallied when Glen Harmon flat-footed for a breakaway while his own team was a man short…

Windsor Daily Star April 5 1946

…Ken Mosdell was standing on the Boston goal crease when he deflected Glen Harmon’s 40 foot forward pass to chalk up the first of his two goals of the night.

Ottawa Citizen February 3 1947 (which as you’ll see next was apparently a very busy day for Harmon)

Glen Harmon fired the puck through a maze of players from the blue line and XXX and Richard also added a pair more before the period ended…

Montreal Gazette February 3 1947

A half minute later Glen Harmon and Bryan Hextall rolled on the ice, clawing at each other and when Harmon got up he went berserk and pushed referee Hayes....

I just Kinda like that one haha.

 

[VMBM]

In how many games each?

Unfortunately, it lacks that number, but you cannot credit Novy for the games/tournaments he didn't play, or can you? I mean, if he was that good, why didn't he play longer on the national team?

What we would need, is a genuine Czech/Slovak old-timer, who saw both play troughout their careers - domestically and internationally. There doesn't seem to be that many around, unfortunately.

As of now, I've seen both play in some games and have distant memories from my childhood, and based on that, I just can't accept "Martinec was flashy and Novy wasn't, so M. was considered better" argument.

 

[jarek]

Martinec - 189 points in 167 games.
Novy - 111 in 108.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Epic Art Duncan Biography!

Comments? Discussion?

I actually think there is a legitimate argument that from 1922-23 to 1923-24 he was the best player in the world.

 

[Sturminator]

Before I announce our pick, a quick comparison of three similar goalies from the 80's - 90's. I will use 10 points as the cutoff of significance in Vezina voting, and will note points for any finish below 3rd but over the cutoff. If you look at the raw Vezina voting numbers, you'll see that this is fair metric, and at any rate, it is not self-serving in this analysis. See if you can tell who is whom by the raw numbers:

Goalie A:

Vezina finishes: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 6th (21 points)
Top-10 SV% finishes: 6th, 9th, 10th

Goalie B:

Vezina finishes: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th (14 points), 4th (10 points)
Top-10 SV% finishes: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 10th

Goalie C:

Vezina finishes: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd
Top-10 SV% finishes: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th

Any guesses?

A lot of you can probably identify Goalie B as Ed Belfour, and some of you will probably recognize Goalie A as Grant Fuhr. But goalie C?

Rick and I have had this 11th rounder pegged as the place to draft our goalie since before the ATD started. There were two classic ATD backups who I felt were going to be good value in this thing. The first was Hugh Lehman, the last goalie taken. The second is Goalie C from the above comparison.

The Gwinnett Gladiators select goaltender Tom Barrasso.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Good pick-up. He was absolutly a back-up that needed to become a starter.

 

[Sturminator]

A bit more on Barrasso. I remembered him being a great playoff performer for those Penguins teams in the early 90's, but I went looking for confirmation just in case my memory was foggy. Turns out I was right. The first article is from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - May 27, 1991 (after the first Cup victory):

Barrasso played Game 6 against the Minnesota North Stars Saturday night as if it were his last game. He took one for the team - a shot of pain-killer to the groin - then stood up to the North Stars' xxxxxx, who ran him in the opening seconds, stood up to 39 shots, stood up to his critics who long tormented him by saying he can't win the big games.

For a guy who was a questionable starter - the missed the final two periods of Game 5 Thursday night with a pulled groin muscle - Barrasso was at the top of the Penguins' long list of heroes in their 8-0 Cup-clinching victory.

...

The shutout, the first in the finals since 1986, was fairly indicative of Barrasso's play in the postseason. He finishes with a 12-7 record and had the best goals-against average (2.60) and save percentage (.919) of the playoff goaltenders. He easily could have won the Conn Smythe MVP award if Mario Lemieux had not played so spectacularly in the final three games against Minnesota.

The second is from after Pittsburgh's second Cup victory. It's a pay-per-view article, so you can follow the link and see the abstract, but anyone who wants to read the full text will have to shell out three bucks. From the St. Louis Post-Dispatch - June 3, 1992:

CHICAGO - Pittsburgh star Mario Lemieux gazed at the Conn Smythe Trophy sitting on a table beside him Monday night at Chicago Stadium and wondered whether he deserved it.

He already had one ''Connie Smythe,'' as he called it, in his trophy case at home. He felt that Penguins goalie Tom Barrasso might have been a better choice this year for the award given to the most valuable player of the Stanley Cup playoffs. ''I thought it was Tommy all the way,'' Lemieux said. ''He was superb the last three games of the Washington series, when we came back from a 3-1 deficit. ''He played unbelievable when we swept Boston. This should have gone to him, that's for sure.''

Instead, the big guy, Super Mario, collected his second successive Conn Smythe to go with the Penguins' second successive Stanley Cup. Pittsburgh wrapped up their Cup defense Monday night with a 6-5 victory over the Chicago Blackhawks to complete a four-game sweep. Barrasso, 27, finished a distant second in the MVP voting, but he said he didn't feel the least bit slighted. To him, it was a team accomplishment.

Now, the business of Mario saying that Barrasso should have won the Conn Smythe should be taken with a grain of salt. I do not believe that Barrasso should have won the Conn Smythe in either case over Lemieux, but he did play extremely well and was clearly the Penguins' second best player in those Cup runs. Without Barrasso standing on his head, it's likely that Pittsburgh never makes it out of the first round in 1992. His reputation as a money goaltender in Pittsburgh was well-earned.

I just wonder if it's ok in the ATD to just not draft a backup, at all? Heh.