ATD 2011 Draft Thread VII

[markrander87]

I agree, I always have said that in 1972, the Soviets were "close, but not quite there". They had the important element of surprise, they played together all year unlike the Canadians, and three of the top-5 players in the world were Canadian and not playing. (maybe I'm being generous when I say Howe was top-5?)

Again, As a Proud Canadian I am not trying to sell the Soviets being on par with Team Canada. I am however being realistic in saying the gap is not as big as we are making it out to be with our research and drafting methods.


.

 

[Sturminator]

So 4 Russian and roughly 25-30 Canadian Defenseman during the 60's. Vasiliev is not included. 4 out of 29-34 so 7:1 8:1? Am I not correct. Even if it is 5:1, 6:1 it is a simple observation in showing how under-valued Soviet players of that time are.

It's not clearly an undervaluation, though. As 70's said, the Soviets produced a thin layer of top-end talent that was comparable to Canadian talent (although nothing on Orr or Hull's level), but didn't produce anything like Canada's depth of talent. The ratio you're referring to is a reflection of the difference in depth, not high-end talent.

Maybe Davydov and Kuzkin are better than their draft positions would indicate? We know so little about them. If you can come up with any new information about these players, I'm all ears.

 

[overpass]

Think about Canada vs USA, 2010. Canada won, but the Americans played very well and kept it close. Canada were about 2-1 favourites going into the final, but there was a very good chance of the Americans winning.

How many American players would have had a good shot at making Team Canada? I'll be generous because we can't discuss undrafted players and say 5. Yet a simple extrapolation from the results of the Olympics, where each team won 1 game head to head, would have you believe that the Americans had equal talent.

 

[markrander87]

It's not clearly an undervaluation, though. As 70's said, the Soviets produced a thin layer of top-end talent that was comparable to Canadian talent (although nothing on Orr or Hull's level), but didn't produce anything like Canada's depth of talent. The ratio you're referring to is a reflection of the difference in depth, not high-end talent.

Maybe Davydov and Kuzkin are better than their draft positions would indicate? We know so little about them. If you can come up with any new information about these players, I'm all ears.

It's too bad that due to the country they play in, era and amount of Newspaper articles (In English) that was written about them that we short change them like this. I've already posted a piece from Childlovski's website refering to the as argueably one of the best Soviet Pairings of All-time.

The rationale behind the initial post is that we (by our drafting methods) are saying the 3rd and 4th best Soviet defenseman of the 60's are on par with the 25th-30th best defenseman from Canada. To me that doesn't add up.

 

[jarek]

Very nice work on Duncan. I believe you got all the nice quotes that I saw while researching Keats.

And if you wanna throw out "best player in the world" title so easily, I hope you give Duke Keats the same respect.

 

[BM67]

I think this is every possibility for D that played in the 60s. 7 of 40 are Soviets. I'd probably only call about half of them 60s Dmen though.

1. - Bobby Orr, D - 66-67 - 78-79
4. - Doug Harvey, D - 47-48 - 68-69
20. - Red Kelly, D/C - 47-48 - 59-60(66-67)
35. - Brad Park, D - 68-69 - 84-85
39. - Pierre Pilote, D - 55-56 - 68-69
41. - Tim Horton, D - 49-50 - 73-74
62. - Bill Gadsby, D - 46-47 - 65-66
66. - Guy Lapointe, D - 68-69 - 83-84
69. - Serge Savard, D - 66-67 - 82-83
100. - Jacques Laperriere, D - 62-63 - 73-74
105. - Jean-Claude Tremblay, D - 59-60 - 78-79
117. - Marcel Pronovost, D - 49-50 - 69-70
128. - Carl Brewer, D - 57-58 - 79-80
141. - Tom Johnson, D - 47-48 - 64-65
157. - Fern Flaman, D - 44-45 - 60-61
164. - Harry Howell, D - 52-53 - 75-76
181. - Allan Stanley, D - 48-49 - 68-69
182. - Pat Stapleton, D - 61-62 - 77-78
188. - Doug Mohns, D/LW - 53-54 - 74-75
195. - Bill White, D - 67-68 - 75-76
198. - Elmer "Moose" Vasko, D - 56-57 - 69-70
227. - Leo Boivin, D - 51-52 - 69-70
240. - Bobby Baun, D - 56-57 - 72-73
242. - Jean-Guy Talbot, D - 54-55 - 70-71
294. - Jim Neilson, D - 62-63 - 78-79
307. - Ted Green, D - 60-61 - 78-79
315. - Ed Westfall, RW - 61-62 - 78-79
336. - Terry Harper, D - 62-63 - 80-81
376. - Barclay Plager, D - 67-68 - 76-77
389. - Ted Harris, D - 63-64 - 74-75

156. - Jan Suchy, D - 63-64 - 78-79
192. - Frantisek Pospisil, D - 61-62 - 77-78
344. - Lennart Svedberg, D - 60-61 - 71-72

82. - Valeri Vasiliev, D - 66-67 - 83-84
179. - Alexander Ragulin, D - 57-58 - 72-73
221. - Vladimir Lutchenko, D - 66-67 - 80-81
265. - Nikolai Sologubov, D - 49-50 - 64-65
329. - Vitaly Davydov, D - 57-58 - 72-73
392. - Eduard Ivanov, D - 55-56 - 69-70
421. - Victor Kuzkin, D - 58-59 - 75-76

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Very nice work on Duncan. I believe you got all the nice quotes that I saw while researching Keats.

And if you wanna throw out "best player in the world" title so easily, I hope you give Duke Keats the same respect.

I dont think saying a d-man leading a major pro league in scoring is giving the title away easily. But I do respect Duke as a top player.

You forgot about Jan Suchy as another defensemen who led a professional league in scoring, and maybe Joe Simpson, as well...though I'm not sure about that one.

Duncan is a very interesting player, likely underrated around here, as many old western stars have been. His three first team all-star selections in the PCHA stand out, though the second team selections mean nothing to me in a league that iced six regular defensemen during Duncan's prime.

Duncan the best player in the world in 22-23?! Where do you get that idea? That seems to have been one of his less impressive seasons. He was 3rd in defenseman scoring in the PCHA that year, which is not impressive, at all. Typo? But an argument can definitely be made that he was the best player in the world in 23-24, when he led the PCHA in scoring. The thing is that 23-24 was a major outlier for Duncan, who otherwise peaked at 8th in league scoring - still good for a defenseman, but nothing world-shaking.

I am also pretty skeptical of later PCHA all-star finishes among defensemen, even the first teamers. Back when Ernie Johnson and the Patrick boys dominated the PCHA all-star slots on defense, I think they meant a lot, but Duncan's all-star credentials come from a much softer later era. The PCHA had a lot of forward talent throughout, but they didn't seem to have adequately replaced the blueline talent they had at the beginning. There is still an undrafted PCHA defenseman who also has three 1st team all-star finishes to his name, and that guy actually beat out Lester Patrick one year. Maybe he's been underrated, as well? I dunno.

Duncan looks to me like a good offensive defenseman who had one great season. I think he's been underrated, but not by 100 picks. 100 picks higher would put Duncan on the level of Joe Simpson, Red Dutton and Frank Patrick, and I just don't see that from the evidence we have thus far.

It logically looks like the all-star teams are in order of how Ion thought they ought to be, so that means that in 22-23, Ion thought Duncan was the best d-man. Cook was the leading scorer among d-men that year, so Duncan was quite likely the best defensive d-man, while also being 3rd in scoring.

The fact that it would put him with Joe Simpson, Red Dutton and Frank Patrick is precisely why I chose the number.

Simpson and Patrick have short peaks and Dutton doesn't have the same level of peak. When Dutton, Duncan and Herb Gardiner played on the same team, Dutton and Duncan were the go to guys, they seem to be peers. Just as latter in Toronto, Duncan and Hap Day were viewed as peers. And while Duncan had some very strong years in the NHL, Simpson pulled a Krutov...

The other PCHA d-man in question was talked about as very important to his team. But when separates Duncan from him, and Cook, is that from 1920-1924, Duncan is talked about as one of the PCHA's marquee players, like, when Cyclone declined, it was Duncan, and not MacKay who became the star in Vancouver, the franchise player. (By the same token, Foyston is likely better than Morris for the same reason, everytime Seattle came to town it was Foyston who was highlighted as the man to stop in Seattle.) And I think we ought to respect the opinion of the time on who teams marquee players were.

You mentioned Jan Suchy, and I think that's the best comparison available, except that while Suchy is undersized, Duncan has great size. Like Suchy, Duncan had a short period where he was the peer of players who would go significantly higher in the ATD. A true world beater. But that was only a short period. But. Like, Suchy, outside of that great offensive period, Duncan was also a very reliable and very good defensive defenceman. As noted by his quality player before his peak and in latter years with Calgary and Toronto. (Chicago was a write off as he focused on coaching.)

 

[seventieslord]

I see 20 North Americans, 5 Soviets and 3 other Europeans among 28 drafted defensemen who played at least half of the 60s.

I am pretty comfortable with that ratio.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Before I announce our pick, a quick comparison of three similar goalies from the 80's - 90's. I will use 10 points as the cutoff of significance in Vezina voting, and will note points for any finish below 3rd but over the cutoff. If you look at the raw Vezina voting numbers, you'll see that this is fair metric, and at any rate, it is not self-serving in this analysis. See if you can tell who is whom by the raw numbers:

Goalie A:

Vezina finishes: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 6th (21 points)
Top-10 SV% finishes: 6th, 9th, 10th

Goalie B:

Vezina finishes: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th (14 points), 4th (10 points)
Top-10 SV% finishes: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th, 10th

Goalie C:

Vezina finishes: 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd
Top-10 SV% finishes: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 10th

Any guesses?

A lot of you can probably identify Goalie B as Ed Belfour, and some of you will probably recognize Goalie A as Grant Fuhr. But goalie C?

Rick and I have had this 11th rounder pegged as the place to draft our goalie since before the ATD started. There were two classic ATD backups who I felt were going to be good value in this thing. The first was Hugh Lehman, the last goalie taken. The second is Goalie C from the above comparison.

The Gwinnett Gladiators select goaltender Tom Barrasso.

He's definitely deserving of being a starter. But you also need to point out that Belfour faced far better competition than Barrasso did for those awards and finishes. I realize their careers overlap quite a bit, but Barrasso got a lot of his finishes (including his Vezina) in the weak late 80s, while Belfour started off in the early 90s and went right into Hasek/Roy/Brodeur land.

Re: Glen Harmon - definitely considered him, couldn't find enough on his shut down ability/physical strength.

The Cincinnati Fireworks are please to Select D Viktor Kuzkin.

Robinson-Stanley
Davydov-Kuzkin

-http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1972/yroster/ru04.htm

Perfect partner for Davydov. I'm surprised you even asked.

The Detroit Red Wings select:

Ivan Hlinka, C
​

Heh, I considered him briefly for my last pick. I hope you research him enough to find out just how much he used his size in physical battles. If he did, his stock skyrockets, as he's quite balanced otherwise.

 

[seventieslord]

I love that when Hlinka came to the NHL, in two of his three seasons he scored at a level that makes one say, "hmm, imagine what he'd have done a decade ago."

 

[DoMakc]

Heh, I considered him briefly for my last pick. I hope you research him enough to find out just how much he used his size in physical battles. If he did, his stock skyrockets, as he's quite balanced otherwise.

It's tough to research him, since my czech ... well... i understand it a bit, since it's another slavic language, but it's by no means enough to make a research.
As for Hlinka i read his playing style was often compared to Nedomanský's so it's fair to assume that he was quite physical, but i'll try to find something on this. Maybe VMBM can tell us more?

 

[jarek]

As far as I know, Nedomansky wasn't very physical in the NHL.

 

[seventieslord]

As far as I know, Nedomansky wasn't very physical in the NHL.

Agree. I read every scouting report on Nedomansky and all it ever talked about was his finesse skill. I got the impression that, at best, he was like a Frank Fredrickson/Mats Sundin-type player physically.

 

[jarek]

He may have been quite physical in the Czech league, I don't know.

 

[DoMakc]

Agree. I read every scouting report on Nedomansky and all it ever talked about was his finesse skill. I got the impression that, at best, he was like a Frank Fredrickson/Mats Sundin-type player physically.

the question was, if he used his size to win battles, AFAIK Sundin did use his size, he didn't hit much. Nedomanský was used often in the slot, which implies he wasn't soft.

 

[jarek]

I wouldn't call Nedomansky soft at all. But you're right, there's a huge difference between using size to win battles and using size to be a meanie.

 

[DaveG]

alright, 2:30, time to move on

Garnish Phantoms select, defenseman Dollard St Laurent

http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Dollard-St-Laurent

As the veterans of the 1944 and 1946 Stanley Cup championship teams gave way to a new generation of heroes, St. Laurent spent more and more time with the big club, playing 40 games the following season and then sticking with the team for good in 1952-53.

For the next six seasons, the Verdun, QC native made his side of the ice as inhospitable as possible to enemy forwards, his punishing hip checks and obvious enthusiasm for his job making him a fan favorite. St. Laurent’s name was engraved on the Stanley Cup for the first time following the 1952-53 season, his first full campaign with the Habs.

An offensive threat in his amateur days, the 5-foot-11, 175-pound rearguard concentrated on taking care of the D zone once he graduated to the NHL, but he still managed to contribute at least a dozen points a season to the Canadiens cause. The hard-hitting blue-liner occasionally led the rush himself and was a more than able playmaker on those occasions that he did venture beyond center ice.

He started out with the Jr. Canadiens of the QJHL where he skated for two seasons from 1947 to 1949. There he demonstrated an offensive touch and an ability to play a tough game of defense at the other end of the ice.

In 1949-50, St. Laurent started a three-year relationship with the Montreal Royals of the QSHL. He spent most of his time sharpening the finer points of his game while putting them to the occasional test by joining the Habs for a couple of stints.

Around 1952-53, however, the Canadiens began to introduce significant new blood in the form of Jacques Plante and Dickie Moore among others. One of the others included St. Laurent who settled onto the Habs' blueline corps as a stay-at-home regular. Over the six seasons that followed, he doled out tough bodychecks and adhered to defensive zone fundamentals in textbook fashion. His efforts contributed to three-straight Stanley Cup victories between 1956 and 1958.

the next GM has been PM'd

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

St. Laurent is an interesting player. One of many I was considering for my last pick. He won a lot of Cups and the anecdotes about him are great.

What turned me off was that I have no idea about just how good he actually was! No postseason AS teams. And no All Star games based on merit (all of them were for being on the Cup winner, I believe).

Out of laziness so I don't have to look it up, anyone know off the top of their head when the AS game stopped pitting the previous year's Cup winner against All Stars from all over the league?

Edit: The 67-68 AS Game was the last using the old format. From wiki:

The 1968 classic was also home to a notable first: because Toronto goaltender Johnny Bower was injured and could not play, he was replaced with Al Smith, their starting minor league goaltender, becoming the first player to play in the all-star game despite having not played with the Leafs the previous year.

As it turned out, this year would be the last in which the defending champions faced off against a team consisting of the "best of the rest" - NHL president Clarence Campbell hinted that the following year would be the first in which there would be an East-versus-West battle, citing that the game could be easily moved to different cities. The 21st classic would also be the last in which the teams were determined based on the previous season's First and Second All-Star Teams, a move supported by the absence of then-rookie Bobby Orr in the last year's game and the fact that the game had moved to mid-season.

 

[Hedberg]

Out of laziness so I don't have to look it up, anyone know off the top of their head when the AS game stopped pitting the previous year's Cup winner against All Stars from all over the league?

With the exception of 1951 and 1952, it was in 1969.

What turned me off was that I have no idea about just how good he actually was! No postseason AS teams. And no All Star games based on merit (all of them were for being on the Cup winner, I believe).

He was in the 1958 All-Star Game on merit:
http://www.hockey-reference.com/allstar/NHL_1958_roster.html

 

[DaveG]

St. Laurent is an interesting player. One of many I was considering for my last pick. He won a lot of Cups and the anecdotes about him are great.

What turned me off was that I have no idea about just how good he actually was! No postseason AS teams. And no All Star games based on merit (all of them were for being on the Cup winner, I believe).

Out of laziness so I don't have to look it up, anyone know off the top of their head when the AS game stopped pitting the previous year's Cup winner against All Stars from all over the league?

Take this with a grain of salt, but Wikipedia says for a couple years in the 50s the ASG format was first team All Stars vs second team All Stars. Although neither of those was a year that St Laurent was involved.

edit: Hedberg beat me to it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That 1958 roster certainly suggests he is in the game based on merit, as he's on the "best of the rest team" from Chicago.

But I don't know. He was on Montreal in 1957-58, so he would have been there as a member of the Cup winning team. I have no idea what the rule was in the case of a player who used to be on the Cup winning team, but was moved in the offseason.

I always assumed he got into the AS Game anyway based on being part of the previous year's Cup team, but that's not necessarily true.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I've read both nedomansky and Hlinka used their size and strength to be good at screening the goalie.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I love that when Hlinka came to the NHL, in two of his three seasons he scored at a level that makes one say, "hmm, imagine what he'd have done a decade ago."

Seriously.. I think the same thing about Makarov and Larionov etc.

 

[seventieslord]

the question was, if he used his size to win battles, AFAIK Sundin did use his size, he didn't hit much. Nedomanský was used often in the slot, which implies he wasn't soft.

basically what jarek said. I don't think he was soft either. just that the word "physical" isn't how I would describe him. (only based on reading, mind you)

With the exception of 1951 and 1952, it was in 1969.

You beat me to it.

Actually, if I hadn't discovered those two years while researching Reise, I'd have never known.

That 1958 roster certainly suggests he is in the game based on merit, as he's on the "best of the rest team" from Chicago.

But I don't know. He was on Montreal in 1957-58, so he would have been there as a member of the Cup winning team. I have no idea what the rule was in the case of a player who used to be on the Cup winning team, but was moved in the offseason.

I always assumed he got into the AS Game anyway based on being part of the previous year's Cup team, but that's not necessarily true.

I can't say for sure myself. But there were also times I have seen where a rookie or new acquisition on the last year's cup winner got into the ASG with that team since that team had won the previous cup. So I think it is based on current rosters, which would make St. Laurent in the ASG on merit. But even then, who knows if they were consistent about it?

This is the kind of thing I could email the SIHR list about and I'd have three insightful answers within a couple of hours.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

I really didn't think I'd be up...pick coming soon.