Around the NHL 20-21 pt. 2: the season ends

[OkimLom]

I mean its definitely disputable. I think Sabres fans think Eichel is better than he actually is. His talent is fantastic, but his attitude and leadership is what gets me. You can't be a captain of a team when your pouting all day on the bench, and visibly showing yourself getting frustrated on the ice. That's not what leaders do, however unpopular of an opinion it is.

Matthews Career PPG- 1.05 (3 40 goal seasons) (Playoffs every year since he was drafted)
Eichel Career PPG- .95 ( 0 40 goal seasons) (Missed playoffs entire career)

So now you're moving the goal posts to what? Matthews is on a better team? Matthews is a better Captain? Matthews is a better goal scorer? Because that's what that post says

 

[EichHart]

So now you're moving the goal posts to what? Matthews is on a better team? Matthews is a better Captain? Matthews is a better goal scorer? Because that's what that post says

Where is the moving goal post? Matthews is a better everything then Eichel. Simple as that.

 

[joshjull]

I mean its definitely disputable. I think Sabres fans think Eichel is better than he actually is. His talent is fantastic, but his attitude and leadership is what gets me. You can't be a captain of a team when your pouting all day on the bench, and visibly showing yourself getting frustrated on the ice. That's not what leaders do, however unpopular of an opinion it is.

Matthews Career PPG- 1.05 (3 40 goal seasons) (Playoffs every year since he was drafted)
Eichel Career PPG- .95 ( 0 40 goal seasons) (Missed playoffs entire career)

I’m not getting into who is better since thats subjective with pros and cons for each. Plus they're different types of offensive players.

But if this is your argument to support Mathews being better. I have to say its pretty weak.

1) The PPG stuff. Mathews has played with far better offensive talent on a far better offensive teams since joining the league. He’s also “running up the score” right now, if you will, feasting on a weak division. He should be blowing Jack out of the water in PPG with those advantages but he isn’t. Its actually impressive how close Jack has kept it all things considered.

2) Making the playoffs or not is not about them individually. It doesn’t tells us anything about who is the better player.

3) I always love the comments about the faces he makes. For starters it has nothing to do with whether or not Mathews or Jack is better. Its just a personal hang up you have . Nothing wrong with not liking them btw. But the bigger point is I guess you’ve never watched Crosby play a game. A captain who whines, pouts, sulks, complains and bitches every game he plays in when things aren’t going the Pens way.


Essentially your argument can be bolded down to this..... Mathews is clearly better because he has a slightly better PPG with huge advantages and Jack makes faces you don't like.

 

[joshjull]

I do get a kick out of the Canadian press doing circle jerks over what McDavid and Mathews are doing. All without much analysis as to why their numbers are so high. I mean it is amazing what they’re doing. I’m not saying it isn’t. But their division is clearly playing a role in this.

They have both already established themselves prior to this year as two of the very best in the game. But just look at their career numbers vs this season........

Mathews - career (this season)
GPG —> .56 (.82)
PPG —> 1.01 (1.31)

McDavid
GPG —> .46 (.60)
PPG —-> 1.34 (1.85)


Those are ridiculous jumps in goal scoring and overall production from numbers that were already at the very top of the NHL. That division is playing a big role in that jump. I feel comfortable saying they will go back to their normal dominant career numbers during a normal regular season.

 

[EichHart]

I do get a kick out of the Canadian press doing circle jerks over what McDavid and Mathews are doing. All without much analysis as to why their numbers are so high. I mean it is amazing what they’re doing. I’m not saying it isn’t. But their division is clearly playing a role in this.

They have both already established themselves prior to this year as two of the very best in the game. But just look at their career numbers vs this season........

Mathews - career (this season)
GPG —> .56 (.82)
PPG —> 1.01 (1.31)

McDavid
GPG —> .46 (.60)
PPG —-> 1.34 (1.85)


Those are ridiculous jumps in goal scoring and overall production from numbers that were already at the very top of the NHL. That division is playing a big role in that jump. I feel comfortable saying they will go back to their normal dominant career numbers during a normal regular season.

The North is the lowest scoring division to date. It only makes Mathews goals more impressive. Won't even touch the other post, a bunch of homerism. Leaders like McDavid and Matthews carry their teams into the playoffs.

North 152.4 goals per team
West 152.6 goals per team
Central 153.8 goals per team
East 161.8 goals per team.

 

[2 others]

Matthews has never carried anyone, other than his giant paycheck.
You subtract Matthews from the Leafs, they would have still made the playoffs each season, including this one.
You subtract Eichel from the Sabres, they won't even come close to playoff contention.

 

[SundherDome]

The North is the lowest scoring division to date. It only makes Mathews goals more impressive. Won't even touch the other post, a bunch of homerism. Leaders like McDavid and Matthews carry their teams into the playoffs.

North 152.4 goals per team
West 152.6 goals per team
Central 153.8 goals per team
East 161.8 goals per team.

This is skewed, they have one less team and one team who still has 13 games left to play.

 

[OkimLom]

The North is the lowest scoring division to date. It only makes Mathews goals more impressive. Won't even touch the other post, a bunch of homerism. Leaders like McDavid and Matthews carry their teams into the playoffs.

North 152.4 goals per team
West 152.6 goals per team
Central 153.8 goals per team
East 161.8 goals per team.

I have to say, you have an interesting way of trying to show a proof of a narrative that you are trying to make. I'm actually in agreement that Matthews is the better player; not by much, but I agree. But using the numbers you are, leads to a very weak "evidence" to the point you are trying to make.

 

[Team Cozens]

Marty Biron said it best on the NHL network today, Matthews is an Elite 50 goal scorer but playing with Marner makes him a Super Elite 65 goal scorer.

 

[brian_griffin]

Matthews has 40 goals in 49 games, a 67 goal scoring pace. Remember when we thought Eichel was the better player.

I mean its definitely disputable. I think Sabres fans think Eichel is better than he actually is. His talent is fantastic, but his attitude and leadership is what gets me. You can't be a captain of a team when your pouting all day on the bench, and visibly showing yourself getting frustrated on the ice. That's not what leaders do, however unpopular of an opinion it is.

Matthews Career PPG- 1.05 (3 40 goal seasons) (Playoffs every year since he was drafted)
Eichel Career PPG- .95 ( 0 40 goal seasons) (Missed playoffs entire career)

1) RE: The bolded, I'd be far, far more concerned if Eichel was all passionless "aw shucks we tried hard" puppies and rainbows shit Phil Housley spouted ad nauseum.

2) RE: Leadership. Eichel was done for the season after the 7th loss of the streak. Do you think the Sabres would have lost 18 in a row if Eichel had continued to play? Do you think they would have lost 7, or 18, or pick a number, in a row if he had been healthy?

3) Why the mild obsession with # of 40-goal seasons, or goals scored by the player? Do the goals scored by teammates whom both Eichel and Matthews assisted on not count toward the game results?

4) Their career stats are hardly that different. Throw out Eichel's first season and count the seasons they were in the league together, and Eichel's PPG is 1.02 vs. Matthews 1.05.

5) Count the seasons they played the same schedule against the same teams: 273 games 281 points = 1.03 PPG;
282 games 285 points = 1.01 PPG. Does it matter which stat line is whose?

6) Without going to game-by-game logs (i.e., any errors in approximations are likely beyond the decimal point), here are their individual % goal share of their team goals scored, by year in the league:
Year JE AM
1st 12% 16%
2nd 16% 16%
3rd 15% 16%
4th 13% 20%
5th 19% 24%
If you want to do calendar year, shift the 2nd column down by 1 row, leaving Matthews on the right empty in the 1st year (Matthews not in NHL) and Eichel empty in the 6th year (this year - major injury).

7) Marcel Dionne played 18 years in the NHL. He routinely finished in the top-handful of scoring leaders, won the Art Ross, Lester Pearson, Lady Byng, was a repeat 1st or 2nd team All-Star at season's end (don't know if they still do those teams).
Dionne was #2 or #3 in all-time scoring behind Howe and Phil Esposito for 5 years before his final season.
In his final season, Gretzky passed him to put him back in #3 all-time.
In 18 seasons, Dionne's teams made the playoffs only 9 years for a total of 49 games. He never made the playoffs until he was traded from the Wings to the Kings.

My point? Teammates/Talent and coaching/style of play matter. They mattered for Marcel Dionne, and they matter for Eichel and Matthews. In the season ending year below, here is the goals-for and goals-against differential per game for the two teams (TOR minus BUF).
Year GFD GAD TOT
2017 0.61 0.06 0.55
2018 0.95 -0.59 1.54
2019 0.73 -0.24 0.98
2020 0.57 0.14 0.43
2021 0.87 -1.09 1.96
Those are HUGE goal-for differentials.
i.e., in 2021 TOR goal differential is near 2 full goals better than BUF, but note none of the numbers above are adjusted for when Eichel or Matthews were out injured.

8) My conclusions?
Each is the most important offensive talent on their respective teams.
Matthews has been helped by his better surrounding talent, coaches, and team playing style / system more than Eichel has been helped by his. In fact, vastly so.
Anyone arguing one better than the other needs a time machine to put the opposite player on the opposing team for those same seasons and then watch the results.

9)

 

[EichHart]

1) RE: The bolded, I'd be far, far more concerned if Eichel was all passionless "aw shucks we tried hard" puppies and rainbows shit Phil Housley spouted ad nauseum.

2) RE: Leadership. Eichel was done for the season after the 7th loss of the streak. Do you think the Sabres would have lost 18 in a row if Eichel had continued to play? Do you think they would have lost 7, or 18, or pick a number, in a row if he had been healthy?

3) Why the mild obsession with # of 40-goal seasons, or goals scored by the player? Do the goals scored by teammates whom both Eichel and Matthews assisted on not count toward the game results?

4) Their career stats are hardly that different. Throw out Eichel's first season and count the seasons they were in the league together, and Eichel's PPG is 1.02 vs. Matthews 1.05.

5) Count the seasons they played the same schedule against the same teams: 273 games 281 points = 1.03 PPG;
282 games 285 points = 1.01 PPG. Does it matter which stat line is whose?

6) Without going to game-by-game logs (i.e., any errors in approximations are likely beyond the decimal point), here are their individual % goal share of their team goals scored, by year in the league:
1st 12% 16%
2nd 16% 16%
3rd 15% 16%
4th 13% 20%
5th 19% 24%

7) Marcel Dionne played 18 years in the NHL. He routinely finished in the top-handful of scoring leaders, won the Art Ross, Lester Pearson, Lady Byng, was a repeat 1st or 2nd team All-Star at season's end (don't know if they still do those teams).
Dionne was #2 or #3 in all-time scoring behind Howe and Phil Esposito for 5 years before his final season.
In his final season, Gretzky passed him to put him back in #3 all-time.
In 18 seasons, Dionne's teams made the playoffs only 9 years for a total of 49 games. He never made the playoffs until he was traded from the Wings to the Kings.

Teammates/Talent and coaching/style of play matter. They mattered for Marcel Dionne, and they matter for Eichel and Matthews. In the season ending year below, here is the goals-for and goals-against differential per game for the two teams (TOR minus BUF).
Year GFD GAD TOT
2017 0.61 0.06 0.55
2018 0.95 -0.59 1.54
2019 0.73 -0.24 0.98
2020 0.57 0.14 0.43
2021 0.87 -1.09 1.96
i.e., in 2021 TOR goal differential is near 2 full goals better than BUF, but none of the numbers above are adjusted for when Eichel or Matthews were out injured.

8) My conclusions?
Each is the most important offensive talent on their respective teams.
Matthews has been helped by his better surrounding talent, coaches, and team playing style / system more than Eichel has been helped by his.
Anyone arguing one better than the other needs a time machine to put the opposite player on the opposing team for those same seasons and then watch the results.

9)

This is good stuff. Eichel had to be hurt this season, he wasn't explosive like he was last year. I do think Eichel has had good enough pieces on this team to make progress towards the playoffs, but somehow we keep finishing bottom 5. Matthews got drafted 1st overall and immediately they were in the playoffs the next season. Matthews will be the best goalscorer in the NHL for the next decade, his shot is that good. Eichel is close to Matthews in terms of talent, but I want to see him carry this team on his back to the playoffs like McDavid does every year.

 

[joshjull]

 

[SundherDome]

You know I love my thicc boys.

For real though, I had no idea he was even that close to 1000 pts.

 

[dugman]

This looks like a “caption this” opportunity.
The best I can do so far:
“That poor guy. Can’t believe this arena doesn’t have an escalator to the upper deck”.
“...but it’s a dry heat...”
“It’s a pretty full flight, but they’re about to close the door, and it appears that nobody will be sitting in the middle seat next to me...dammit!”
“Hmmm...looks like a baseball player. Why’s he holding a puck?”
I’m sure you can do better than these.
Nice accomplishment for Phil.

 

[joshjull]

The North is the lowest scoring division to date. It only makes Mathews goals more impressive.

North 152.4 goals per team
West 152.6 goals per team
Central 153.8 goals per team
East 161.8 goals per team.

The North is a weak division because of the caliber of teams in it.

EAST ———> Pens, Caps, Bruins, Isles
CENTRAL -> Canes, Tampa, Florida
WEST ——> Vegas, Avs, Minny
NORTH—-> Leafs


The Leafs are the only team in the North that belongs with the top ones from the other divisions. They haven’t had to play a team on their level all season long.

As an aside, the path to the conference finals is there for them. No excuses really, barring injury problems.

Won't even touch the other post, a bunch of homerism.

Its context not homerism.

Its essentially what @brian_griffin was saying in his post. He just did a much better job.

Leaders like McDavid and Matthews carry their teams into the playoffs.

No they don’t because thats not a thing in hockey. No individual skater can single handedly carry a team to the playoffs.

Teams make the playoffs because they have a roster capable of it and a coach that can make it happen. Two things we haven’t had in Jack’s time here, especially the coaching aspect. There is no magical pixie dust a leader can sprinkle on his team that can overcome that.

Being frustrated at Jack for not doing something no skater can do is not really fair to him.

 

[Team Cozens]

The North is a weak division because of the caliber of teams in it.

EAST ———> Pens, Caps, Bruins, Isles
CENTRAL -> Canes, Tampa, Florida
WEST ——> Vegas, Avs, Minny
NORTH—-> Leafs


The Leafs are the only team in the North that belongs with the top ones from the other divisions. They haven’t had to play a team on their level all season long.

As an aside, the path to the conference finals is there for them. No excuses really, barring injury problems.



Its context not homerism.

Its essentially what @brian_griffin was saying in his post. He just did a much better job.



No they don’t because thats not a thing in hockey. No individual skater can single handedly carry a team to the playoffs.

Teams make the playoffs because they have a roster capable of it and a coach that can make it happen. Two things we haven’t had in Jack’s time here, especially the coaching aspect. There is no magical pixie dust a leader can sprinkle on his team that can overcome that.

Being frustrated at Jack for not doing something no skater can do is not really fair to him.

Leafs are going to skate right to the Finals fairly unscathed coming out of the North and then will face a team battered and bruised getting out of their division. This season was perfectly set up for a Leafs Cup win.

 

[joshjull]

This is good stuff. Eichel had to be hurt this season, he wasn't explosive like he was last year. I do think Eichel has had good enough pieces on this team to make progress towards the playoffs, but somehow we keep finishing bottom 5. Matthews got drafted 1st overall and immediately they were in the playoffs the next season. Matthews will be the best goalscorer in the NHL for the next decade, his shot is that good. Eichel is close to Matthews in terms of talent, but I want to see him carry this team on his back to the playoffs like McDavid does every year.

Completely agree. If Mathews stays healthy and plays as long as Ovechkin. He should be able to challenge Ovy’s totals.

 

[joshjull]

Leafs are going to skate right to the Finals fairly unscathed coming out of the North and then will face a team battered and bruised getting out of their division. This season was perfectly set up for a Leafs Cup win.

What division does the North play after they get out of their division? I can’t remember.

 

[Team Cozens]

What division does the North play after they get out of their division? I can’t remember.

I believe it is a cross over based on standings. They never announced anything that I saw.

for arguments sake.

Carolina #1 vs Toronto #4
Boston #2 vs Vegas #3

Colorado
Washington
Florida
Pittsburgh
Islanders

Would already be eliminated.

 

[joshjull]

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

Someone needs to do a photoshop with hotdog in the hand instead of puck.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

Someone needs to do a photoshop with hotdog in the hand instead of puck.

That was one of the first things someone did. Saw it on my time line.

 

[joshjull]

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

Someone needs to do a photoshop with hotdog in the hand instead of puck.

 

[CrazyPsycho]

Playoffs are gonna be wild this year these teams have played each other too much, Tampa and Florida just had 136 penalty minutes