Around the League 2020-21 part 2 *Insert funny thread title here* edition

[bland]

I guess that brings to mind the always interesting debate of peak vs. longevity + championships.
Personally, and having been a fan since the mid-90's, I would give it to Gretz. But that's not to diminish Kopitar in any way.

Also, is it a commonly held belief that Kopitar was better than Doughty for both of your championship runs?

Not by a longshot. Kopitar was no higher than 4th best in either Cup run. Anze always had terrific starts to playoffs but faded by the finals. The best hockey he ever played was in the reverse sweep of the Sharks in 2014, but wasn't a serious Smythe contender after two pretty quiet rounds to end the run.

Doughty has always been the better and more influential player.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Not by a longshot. Kopitar was no higher than 4th best in either Cup run. Anze always had terrific starts to playoffs but faded by the finals. The best hockey he ever played was in the reverse sweep of the Sharks in 2014, but wasn't a serious Smythe contender after two pretty quiet rounds to end the run.

Doughty has always been the better and more influential player.

I like Kopitar a lot, reminds me of a left handed Sundin in some ways. But yeah, watching both runs I felt Doughty was the lynchpin.

 

[Lt Dan]

But earnestly, Gretzky is widely considered the greatest of all time.
Now, in a vacuum, what he did on L.A. wouldn't qualify for that sort of accolade, but he still won art rosses and dominated the league in your uni.

The Sedins are firmly above Linden. Personally, I put Naslund and Bure above him as well. I also think we have at least 3 current players who will be considered better than him when it is all said and done.

Linden took the Canucks closer to promised land than any other player, he could grow a great playoff beard and doesn't look like he should have been in Children of the Corn. He's the greatest Canuck of all time

 

[LAKings88]

Is this the same Kopitar people claimed took a month off every season? Just asking. And, I love how DD has apparently been cancelled. One poster actually claimed we've never seen a D man at 19 with the poise of Bjornfot -- really? DD was nominated for the Norris in his 19/20 year.

Kopi is my favorite King but has he been better than a guy that was arguably the best overall D man in the entire league for about 10 years?
Right.

I mean Doughty is up there on the Mount Rushmore of Kings greats.

 

[King'sPawn]

I guess that brings to mind the always interesting debate of peak vs. longevity + championships.
Personally, and having been a fan since the mid-90's, I would give it to Gretz. But that's not to diminish Kopitar in any way.

Also, is it a commonly held belief that Kopitar was better than Doughty for both of your championship runs?

You'll hear varying opinions.

Kopitar was the best forward, easily, when looking at the aggregate of both cup runs. There will be a forward who had a better series or two. Maybe even a better postseason once, but as far as being a two-way threat, Kopitar always shut down the opposition when he wasn't scoring.

Doughty was always the best defenseman every game, so it's pretty easy to say he was the best Kings player in the 2012-2014 span.

I maintain that Quick did not deserve the Conn Smythe in 2012. He was fantastic, but the Kings were such a well-oiled machine that he rarely had to steal a game. He was dedinitely a candidate for the Hart, in my mind. But the media just saw his insane numbers in the playoffs and didn't bother to stay awake and watch..

In my opinion, the Conn Smythe top 3 for the two playoffs were:
2012:
Doughty
Kopitar
Richards

2014:
Williams
Doughty
Kopitar

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

You'll hear varying opinions.

Kopitar was the best forward, easily, when looking at the aggregate of both cup runs. There will be a forward who had a better series or two. Maybe even a better postseason once, but as far as being a two-way threat, Kopitar always shut down the opposition when he wasn't scoring.

Doughty was always the best defenseman every game, so it's pretty easy to say he was the best Kings player in the 2012-2014 span.

I maintain that Quick did not deserve the Conn Smythe in 2012. He was fantastic, but the Kings were such a well-oiled machine that he rarely had to steal a game. He was dedinitely a candidate for the Hart, in my mind. But the media just saw his insane numbers in the playoffs and didn't bother to stay awake and watch..

In my opinion, the Conn Smythe top 3 for the two playoffs were:
2012:
Doughty
Kopitar
Richards

2014:
Williams
Doughty
Kopitar

Not gonna argue on the lists, but I will say this...2012 should include Brown, and 2014 should include Gaborik ... that is all.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Linden took the Canucks closer to promised land than any other player, he could grow a great playoff beard and doesn't look like he should have been in Children of the Corn. He's the greatest Canuck of all time

Define "took". He was great in that run and scored two in game 7, but Bure and Mclean were more integral to that run.

Further, unless you just mean the final score of game 7, the 2011 team was leagues better than the 94 team.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

You'll hear varying opinions.

Kopitar was the best forward, easily, when looking at the aggregate of both cup runs. There will be a forward who had a better series or two. Maybe even a better postseason once, but as far as being a two-way threat, Kopitar always shut down the opposition when he wasn't scoring.

Doughty was always the best defenseman every game, so it's pretty easy to say he was the best Kings player in the 2012-2014 span.

I maintain that Quick did not deserve the Conn Smythe in 2012. He was fantastic, but the Kings were such a well-oiled machine that he rarely had to steal a game. He was dedinitely a candidate for the Hart, in my mind. But the media just saw his insane numbers in the playoffs and didn't bother to stay awake and watch..

In my opinion, the Conn Smythe top 3 for the two playoffs were:
2012:
Doughty
Kopitar
Richards

2014:
Williams
Doughty
Kopitar

Interesting. I have to say that yes, that Kings team was an obnoxiously well-oiled machine in 2012, but Quick just made it feel impossible. I wouldn't have had a problem with Doughty or Kopitar being up for the Smythe that year.

I've always felt that Williams in 2014 was a weak pick. Like I know he scored a bunch of game 7 winners, but it's a bit like picking Gelinas in 04 had the Flames won the cup. It's a nice narrative, and Williams was a really good and important player. But was he more important than Doughty or Kopitar? I didn't see it that way.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Interesting. I have to say that yes, that Kings team was an obnoxiously well-oiled machine in 2012, but Quick just made it feel impossible. I wouldn't have had a problem with Doughty or Kopitar being up for the Smythe that year.

I've always felt that Williams in 2014 was a weak pick. Like I know he scored a bunch of game 7 winners, but it's a bit like picking Gelinas in 04 had the Flames won the cup. It's a nice narrative, and Williams was a really good and important player. But was he more important than Doughty or Kopitar? I didn't see it that way.

The Mr. Game 7 narrative came thru in a big way in that run and Doughty lost the Conn Smythe as soon as he gave up the puck to Pouliot for the first goal and Williams won it by scoring in Game 1 OT.

Doughty was the best player in the entire world in 2014 as a whole.

 

[johnjm22]

Not by a longshot. Kopitar was no higher than 4th best in either Cup run. Anze always had terrific starts to playoffs but faded by the finals. The best hockey he ever played was in the reverse sweep of the Sharks in 2014, but wasn't a serious Smythe contender after two pretty quiet rounds to end the run.

Doughty has always been the better and more influential player.

Kopitar was the best player in the 2012 run and should have won the Conn Smythe. Maybe Brown.

 

[Sparky206]

You'll hear varying opinions.

Kopitar was the best forward, easily, when looking at the aggregate of both cup runs. There will be a forward who had a better series or two. Maybe even a better postseason once, but as far as being a two-way threat, Kopitar always shut down the opposition when he wasn't scoring.

Doughty was always the best defenseman every game, so it's pretty easy to say he was the best Kings player in the 2012-2014 span.

I maintain that Quick did not deserve the Conn Smythe in 2012. He was fantastic, but the Kings were such a well-oiled machine that he rarely had to steal a game. He was dedinitely a candidate for the Hart, in my mind. But the media just saw his insane numbers in the playoffs and didn't bother to stay awake and watch..

In my opinion, the Conn Smythe top 3 for the two playoffs were:
2012:
Doughty
Kopitar
Richards

2014:
Williams
Doughty
Kopitar

I think your selling Quick short, he stole most games to the point where the Kings score first and the other team seriously wonders how they are going to score 1 let alone 2 against him to get ahead. Watch back any playoffs, theres teams changing goalies mid series, teams where goalies look unbeatable one night and let in 3 in the first the next. Quick looked unbeatable every night. His numbers didn't win him that Conn Smythe, it was save after save after save on A+ high danger chances where the shooter skates back to the bench wondering how he didn't score. He consistently robbed teams night after night and when the team is rolling and Quick robs them at one end and they skate it down and score at the other youve got them emotionally beat and it all began with Quick.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think your selling Quick short, he stole most games to the point where the Kings score first and the other team seriously wonders how they are going to score 1 let alone 2 against him to get ahead. Watch back any playoffs, theres teams changing goalies mid series, teams where goalies look unbeatable one night and let in 3 in the first the next. Quick looked unbeatable every night. His numbers didn't win him that Conn Smythe, it was save after save after save on A+ high danger chances where the shooter skates back to the bench wondering how he didn't score. He consistently robbed teams night after night and when the team is rolling and Quick robs them at one end and they skate it down and score at the other youve got them emotionally beat and it all began with Quick.

That first game vs. the Blues is a great example of the above. Midway through the first I was like "well at least we beat the Canucks, this will be an acceptable out and progress." They were just steamrolling us thru like 10 minutes and Quick held it down till STL broke entirely. Many of their posters are still totally traumatized by him from 2012 and 2013.

 

[Lt Dan]

Define "took". He was great in that run and scored two in game 7, but Bure and Mclean were more integral to that run.

Further, unless you just mean the final score of game 7, the 2011 team was leagues better than the 94 team.

"Took" meaning: that he was the captain and leader and that team rallied around him until he got Messier'd. He was the heart and soul of that team.

The Canucks were closer to winning the cup in '94 vs '11. That '94 came came down to the final seconds. I will politely say that the 2011 game didn't.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

"Took" meaning: that he was the captain and leader and that team rallied around him until he got Messier'd. He was the heart and soul of that team.

The Canucks were closer to winning the cup in '94 vs '11. That '94 came came down to the final seconds. I will politely say that the 2011 game didn't.

Trust a Canucks fan. Linden was great in the playoffs. He was the 3rd most important player on that team at best. Period.

Further, you can be literal and say that a team was closer to winning the one game 7. But in terms of roster composition, team potential, etc. That 2011 team was the best in Canucks history and it isn't close. The number of injuries that team dealt with, and the fact that they faced probably their worst matchup in the finals should not obscure the fact that they were a fantastic team.

The 94 Canucks (who I'm not denigrating, that team got me into hockey) were the 7th seed in the Western Conference. In fact, they had been a much better team the two preceding years, but then things didn't go well for them in 94 until they caught fire.

For the Kings, as an example.. You could argue easily that the 93 Kings were literally closer to the Cup than the 2013 Kings. But in terms of team quality and if a couple of more things went right, I would take the 2013 Kings.

 

[YP44]

Fixed it for you.

when will they let 93 go

 

[YP44]

Wow

zegras coming to take his spot

 

[YP44]

I mean Doughty is up there on the Mount Rushmore of Kings greats.

oooh this is a great question.

have to have Luc there I think so that leaves three spots between Wayne, Dionne, Taylor, Kopitar, Brown, Quick, Vachon and Doughty (no chance Blake is on my mountain).

I think Brown being #1 in GP as a king and being first King to ever raise the cup, two left.

I don't have Gretzky on my Mountain just do to length as a King and never winning it all with LA. Dionne was before my time, so although he likely should be on there I cannot speak to it, same with Vachon. Taylor would have been on it but Brown took him off. That leaves Kopitar, Quick and Doughty for two spots.

I think Kopitar eventually takes over GP total from Brown and will lead some other all time categories so I am giving him one of the last two.

I think I lean Quick over Drew right now for the fourth spot. It may change by the time their time with the Kings are done, but a conn Smythe and all time wins and shut out records are hard to ignore.

My Mt. Rushmore, Luc, Brown, Kopitar, Quick.

3 out of 4 on active roster!! We need to still be taking in and appreciating this team.

 

[Lt Dan]

Trust a Canucks fan. Linden was great in the playoffs. He was the 3rd most important player on that team at best. Period.

Further, you can be literal and say that a team was closer to winning the one game 7. But in terms of roster composition, team potential, etc. That 2011 team was the best in Canucks history and it isn't close. The number of injuries that team dealt with, and the fact that they faced probably their worst matchup in the finals should not obscure the fact that they were a fantastic team.

The 94 Canucks (who I'm not denigrating, that team got me into hockey) were the 7th seed in the Western Conference. In fact, they had been a much better team the two preceding years, but then things didn't go well for them in 94 until they caught fire.

For the Kings, as an example.. You could argue easily that the 93 Kings were literally closer to the Cup than the 2013 Kings. But in terms of team quality and if a couple of more things went right, I would take the 2013 Kings.

I think you are undervaluing Linden's leadership. Sure Bure and McLean put up better stats but there is a guy in the room firing everyone up. And for the record, I was a huge fan of that old Canucks core. They had the kings number. Mommesso , Nedved, Adam's, Courtnall,etc used to torch us.
Also if the Canucks had won the cup. I think the CS would have gone to Bure


Mike Richard's brought that leadership to the kings in 2012 and is credited by all of the players with revving everyone up for the playoffs.

I'll start with the Kings. The difference between the 2013 and 1993 Kings was that the 2013 Kings were exhausted, beat up, and one of their heart and soul players got knocked out of the series and the team was never the same the rest of the series and Richard's himself has never the same. The 93 Kings got an adrenaline shot in the arm with a healthy and rested gretzky that they rode the high on until they got McSorely'd

Where a team finishes the regular season is often pointless. It's how they come together and play in the postseason. the 2012 kings were an 8th seed , but hotter than Hansel from Zoolander. In '93 both the Kings and Habs were lower seeds. In 2014 the Kings were 3rd in the pac. They didn't have home ice thru the first three rounds.

It's all about catching fire at the right time. Dallas did it last year but ran out of gas and just didn't have the horses to keep up with Tampa

 

[YP44]

Kopitar was the best player in the 2012 run and should have won the Conn Smythe. Maybe Brown.

delete

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I think you are undervaluing Linden's leadership. Sure Bure and McLean put up better stats but there is a guy in the room firing everyone up. And for the record, I was a huge fan of that old Canucks core. They had the kings number. Mommesso , Nedved, Adam's, Courtnall,etc used to torch us.
Also if the Canucks had won the cup. I think the CS would have gone to Bure


Mike Richard's brought that leadership to the kings in 2012 and is credited by all of the players with revving everyone up for the playoffs.

I'll start with the Kings. The difference between the 2013 and 1993 Kings was that the 2013 Kings were exhausted, beat up, and one of their heart and soul players got knocked out of the series and the team was never the same the rest of the series and Richard's himself has never the same. The 93 Kings got an adrenaline shot in the arm with a healthy and rested gretzky that they rode the high on until they got McSorely'd

Where a team finishes the regular season is often pointless. It's how they come together and play in the postseason. the 2012 kings were an 8th seed , but hotter than Hansel from Zoolander. In '93 both the Kings and Habs were lower seeds. In 2014 the Kings were 3rd in the pac. They didn't have home ice thru the first three rounds.

It's all about catching fire at the right time. Dallas did it last year but ran out of gas and just didn't have the horses to keep up with Tampa

Could say this about the 2011 Canucks.
Look, a dirty little secret about hockey is just how much luck is involved in winning the Stanley Cup. Luck in terms of matchups, luck in terms of a team hitting on all cylinders at precisely the right time, and luck in terms of health.
Now, there are teams that are built for regular season success and not for the playoffs. I'm not suggesting the 2010 Capitals are better than the 2018 Capitals.
But ultimately, I lean towards the team that is better, not the team that had more break its way.
Nobody thinks that Linden was even close to the player that the Sedins were.

 

[YP44]

Could say this about the 2011 Canucks.
Look, a dirty little secret about hockey is just how much luck is involved in winning the Stanley Cup. Luck in terms of matchups, luck in terms of a team hitting on all cylinders at precisely the right time, and luck in terms of health.
Now, there are teams that are built for regular season success and not for the playoffs. I'm not suggesting the 2010 Capitals are better than the 2018 Capitals.
But ultimately, I lean towards the team that is better, not the team that had more break its way.
Nobody thinks that Linden was even close to the player that the Sedins were.

the 04 flames are celebrated like champs still here in Calgary, but do they even get by Vancouver if Bertuzzi is playing and the team is healthy?
You talk about luck, would Tampa have won in 04 if that puck doesn't go in conclusively? Ultimate luck there.

 

[YP44]

Panarian taking a LOA for abusing someone 10 years ago.

 

[Lt Dan]

Could say this about the 2011 Canucks.
Look, a dirty little secret about hockey is just how much luck is involved in winning the Stanley Cup. Luck in terms of matchups, luck in terms of a team hitting on all cylinders at precisely the right time, and luck in terms of health.
Now, there are teams that are built for regular season success and not for the playoffs. I'm not suggesting the 2010 Capitals are better than the 2018 Capitals.
But ultimately, I lean towards the team that is better, not the team that had more break its way.
Nobody thinks that Linden was even close to the player that the Sedins were.

The last part is totally true. But Linden was a much better leader and got a team to rally and come closer to a cup that any other Canucks teams has and that is the point you have been missing this whole exchange.


As far as luck goes, I refer to the great philosopher Ben Leno

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

the 04 flames are celebrated like champs still here in Calgary, but do they even get by Vancouver if Bertuzzi is playing and the team is healthy?
You talk about luck, would Tampa have won in 04 if that puck doesn't go in conclusively? Ultimate luck there.

All of what I said, by the way, is not to discredit Stanley Cup champions. If you win the cup, you are a Stanley Cup winner, period.
But fans who believe that 'there is 1 team that has a good season and 30 losers' are out to lunch. There are so many variables that cannot be controlled for. You just build the best team you can, and do whatever you can to give them the best possible chance for a number of years.

For a long time, I used to commiserate with Kings fans as long time losers on the westcoast.
Now, it just gets lonelier for Canucks fans.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

The last part is totally true. But Linden was a much better leader and got a team to rally and come closer to a cup that any other Canucks teams has and that is the point you have been missing this whole exchange

But this all started with you suggesting that Linden was the best Canuck in history.