Around The League 2019-20 VII

[Patrik26]

Playoff push in full gear. How long before Torts calls him out?

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

I'm much more frustrated over what we gave up for him. People brush off second round picks, but those picks are nearly 1st rounders and we gave up a good prospect.

Two near-first round picks and Jeremy Davies is a HUGE price to pay for a guy that's barely serviceable.

He hasn’t played up to expectations but in all honesty, who has? It’s hard to stand out when your team is a bottom #5, our PP is garbage and our forwards aren’t anything special.

I couldn’t care less about those picks or Davies. We needed help ASAP and Subban was our best bet since we make a push for Trouba but his mind was made up that he was going to NY and nowhere else.

For that package, we landed a guy that automatically became our #1. He’s also able to give us some solid all around play but his stats aren’t there this year. Is it link to coaching, our roster... I don’t know but it’s hard to believe that a guy averaging 35 pts per year is on pace for the season he’s having.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

So I guess my and every other STH, plus the walk-up fans $$$ aren't going towards his salary?

Ownership is paying salaries, your money goes towards the pockets of ownership. If no one shows up for entire season, those players are still going to get paid.

They’re not waiting for the guy in section 212 to buy his ticket in order for Nico to get his pay check next week.

 

[HBK27]

 

[Blackjack]

He hasn’t played up to expectations but in all honesty, who has? It’s hard to stand out when your team is a bottom #5, our PP is garbage and our forwards aren’t anything special.

I couldn’t care less about those picks or Davies. We needed help ASAP and Subban was our best bet since we make a push for Trouba but his mind was made up that he was going to NY and nowhere else.

For that package, we landed a guy that automatically became our #1. He’s also able to give us some solid all around play but his stats aren’t there this year. Is it link to coaching, our roster... I don’t know but it’s hard to believe that a guy averaging 35 pts per year is on pace for the season he’s having.

Subban hasn't given us solid all around play, he is one of the worst defensemen on the team. Severson has put up a perfectly respectable season despite playing on the same team.

As bad as Subban has been, I thank god that we don't have Trouba's contract. That thing is going to be Skinner'esque in a year or two.

 

[Blackjack]

Ownership is paying salaries, your money goes towards the pockets of ownership. If no one shows up for entire season, those players are still going to get paid.

They’re not waiting for the guy in section 212 to buy his ticket in order for Nico to get his pay check next week.

Not quite. Players get 50% of revenue per the CBA.

 

[Guttersniped]

I'm much more frustrated over what we gave up for him. People brush off second round picks, but those picks are nearly 1st rounders and we gave up a good prospect.

Two near-first round picks and Jeremy Davies is a HUGE price to pay for a guy that's barely serviceable.

Subban wasn’t cheap, losing those 2nds hurt because they’re both ~34 and our picks rather than extra spares. But defense is expensive, last January the Leafs gave up their 1st (#22) and two former 2nd round picks for Muzzin and he only had one year left on his contract. I don’t know if we had much competition willing to take his whole salary but it’s hard to see them taking less and we did dump some salary by adding Santini.

I cut Subban some slack because this team has often seemed barely coached after Hynes lost the team in the opening game debacle. I hope a new coach, a more functional team with some structure and (hopefully) new LD will help him rebound.

Could Shero have just used our 2019 2nd+ to get a more low key stop gap defenseman ? Did we get Subban partly for the famous name and press buzz? Who knows, though I’m real tired of seeing trade proposals involving Subban with 50% of his salary retained. The Devils aren’t paying Subban 9 million dollars to play on a different name.

 

[Bcap88]

looks like the market for vats is prob going to be 2 2nds

 

[HBK27]

 

[Blackjack]

Subban wasn’t cheap, losing those 2nds hurt because they’re both ~34 and our picks rather than extra spares. But defense is expensive, last January the Leafs gave up their 1st (#22) and two former 2nd round picks for Muzzin and he only had one year left on his contract. I don’t know if we had much competition willing to take his whole salary but it’s hard to see them taking less and we did dump some salary by adding Santini.

I cut Subban some slack because this team has often seemed barely coached after Hynes lost the team in the opening game debacle. I hope a new coach, a more functional team with some structure and (hopefully) new LD will help him rebound.

Could Shero have just used our 2019 2nd+ to get a more low key stop gap defenseman ? Did we get Subban partly for the famous name and press buzz? Who knows, though I’m real tired of seeing trade proposals involving Subban with 50% of his salary retained. The Devils aren’t paying Subban 9 million dollars to play on a different name.

I think it's unquestionable that the team would be in a better position today if Shero had just used the pick to draft Brink or Lavoie, we kept Davies, and used our 2020 pick wisely. Colton White could have played PK's minutes, he looks absolutely fine out there.

 

[Patrik26]

Ownership is paying salaries, your money goes towards the pockets of ownership. If no one shows up for entire season, those players are still going to get paid.

They’re not waiting for the guy in section 212 to buy his ticket in order for Nico to get his pay check next week.

Oh, I see. So I'm just replenishing the owners pocket. I didn't realize my money stops at the owner. Silly me.

 

[HBK27]

looks like the market for vats is prob going to be 2 2nds

Depends on how many teams are still in the market for a top 4 defenseman.

Who else is left besides Vatanen, unless teams really want to pony up for Brodin or Dumba.

 

[NJDevs26]

I think it's unquestionable that the team would be in a better position today if Shero had just used the pick to draft Brink or Lavoie, we kept Davies, and used our 2020 pick wisely. Colton White could have played PK's minutes, he looks absolutely fine out there.

You can’t look at the PK trade in a vacuum, it was part of the let’s take the next step strategy just like trading for Gusev and signing Simmonds. If we kept those picks the offseason would have been a bloodletting on and off the ice and so would ticket sales and morale.

I know the tear it down strategy is en vogue with fans but you can’t literally do that then complain a bunch of stiffs are dragging down our franchise centers. That excuse is already being used for Hughes.

 

[Guttersniped]

Subban hasn't given us solid all around play, he is one of the worst defensemen on the team. Severson has put up a perfectly respectable season despite playing on the same team.

As bad as Subban has been, I thank god that we don't have Trouba's contract. That thing is going to be Skinner'esque in a year or two.

Severson has been here his entire career under Hynes while Subban joined just as the coaching staff imploded. Defenseman often struggle to fit in with new teams that aren’t dumpster fires. I’m fine with Subban, he’s had a bad year but I can still be hopeful about him. Guys like Carrack and Mueller don’t inspire hope.

 

[Patrik26]

Not quite. Players get 50% of revenue per the CBA.

It's all semantics. For someone to say the owners are paying the salary and my money goes to the owner, well no kidding. Without fans paying hard earned money for tickets, I wonder how many owners would be OK with footing the bill solely on their dime.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

Oh, I see. So I'm just replenishing the owners pocket. I didn't realize my money stops at the owner. Silly me.

It’s probably part of the costs that ownership has to dish out but again, if ticket sales are atrocious, the players will get paid regardless... unless it works some other I’m unaware of.

 

[Spoiled Bratt]

It's all semantics. For someone to say the owners are paying the salary and my money goes to the owner, well no kidding. Without fans paying hard earned money for tickets, I wonder how many owners would be OK with footing the bill solely on their dime.

Ok, your paying PK’s salary then... thanks for everything!

 

[Blackjack]

You can’t look at the PK trade in a vacuum, it was part of the let’s take the next step strategy just like trading for Gusev and signing Simmonds. If we kept those picks the offseason would have been a bloodletting on and off the ice and so would ticket sales and morale.

Yes, I get that, and I was an enthusiastic supporter of the trade when it happened. To be clear, this is not an I-told-you-so post. I'm not sure what you think this season was if not a bloodletting and demoralizing and damaging to ticket sales.

That said, I think we need to be clear-eyed when we examine what the cost of that transaction was. It was a huge setback, and if we're not honest with ourselves about that, then we won't learn anything. While I was, on balance, happy with Shero's performance, he did trade away a ton of 2nd and 3rd round picks to bring back mostly a pile of garbage.

The Sharks used the pick we sent them for Mueller to draft Mario Ferraro, a LD who is now in the NHL.
The Caps used the pick we sent them for Johansson to draft Martin Fehervary, a 20 year old LD who played 6 games for the Caps this year.

Again, I know it won't happen, but we need to stop doing this.

 

[Guttersniped]

I think it's unquestionable that the team would be in a better position today if Shero had just used the pick to draft Brink or Lavoie, we kept Davies, and used our 2020 pick wisely. Colton White could have played PK's minutes, he looks absolutely fine out there.

That’s a whole lot of hindsight. Who cares at this point? Ray was fired and Subban is here. I wished Shero had drafted more in the 2nd round but GMs often have to take risks to try to improve the team. He shouldn’t have tried to bring in a top four defenseman? He should have assumed that Colton White was all we needed?

Edit: Just read your new post and agree with what you said.

 

[Emperoreddy]

That trade was not a huge setback. It wasn’t that expensive because we absorbed the entire contract, which means nothing to us because we won’t be a cap team for the remainder of his contract.

Nothing of major value was lost in that trade.

 

[jkrdevil]

You can’t look at the PK trade in a vacuum, it was part of the let’s take the next step strategy just like trading for Gusev and signing Simmonds. If we kept those picks the offseason would have been a bloodletting on and off the ice and so would ticket sales and morale.

However, the way the Subban trade was handled with the hyped press conference and him being a total bust has probably hurt the team’s credibility in the marketplace on the long term. The next big acquisition or next time the team is hyped as taking the next step is going to be met with trepidation in market until the team actually shows the progress.

It is why team’s shouldn’t make roster mover with outside hockey (or whatever sport you are discussing) motives in mind. I’m not saying Subban wasn’t a hockey move because he did for a team need at the time. But the way the move was handled was wrong and it probably going to cost more ticket sales in the long run than it generated in the short term.

 

[NJDevs26]

Yes, I get that, and I was an enthusiastic supporter of the trade when it happened. To be clear, this is not an I-told-you-so post. I'm not sure what you think this season was if not a bloodletting and demoralizing and damaging to ticket sales.

That said, I think we need to be clear-eyed when we examine what the cost of that transaction was. It was a huge setback, and if we're not honest with ourselves about that, then we won't learn anything. While I was, on balance, happy with Shero's performance, he did trade away a ton of 2nd and 3rd round picks to bring back mostly a pile of garbage.

The Sharks used the pick we sent them for Mueller to draft Mario Ferraro, a LD who is now in the NHL.
The Caps used the pick we sent them for Johansson to draft Martin Fehervary, a 20 year old LD who played 6 games for the Caps this year.

Again, I know it won't happen, but we need to stop doing this.

I don't wish to get into a long back and forth about Shero in the ATL thread...especially since it's easy to rip the dead guy, so to speak. But we also can't talk about all these deals as if Ray was doing completely reckless short-term patch jobs.

He traded for a 22-year old Mueller taking a gamble he would be a starting defenseman. Arguably he had more of a chance of panning out than whatever they would have used the 2nd rounder on, but he didn't. They traded for Johansson to be a potential 5-6 year solution, not to be here 1.5 years. It didn't work out that way, but they recouped just about what they dealt for him in re-trading him anyway so nothing of consequence was 'lost' there. They got back a 2 and 4 instead of a 2 and a 3, big deal.

I don't really see this criticism that they gave up so much stuff that's going to hurt us long-term, all the stuff they gave up they've been able to replace more or less. They gave up picks at the 2018 deadline for win-now moves and pretty much recouped them at the 2019 deadline in cash-out moves. A lot of the picks they gave up this offseason, they're going to get back and then some because this season flamed out so quickly.

And yes this season turned into an unplanned bloodletting and drain on 2021 ticket sales. That wasn't the idea going in. Shero made moves with a particular vision, but too many of them didn't work out and that's why he's out of a job.

 

[Billdo]

"Nearly firsts" aren't firsts though and it's not right using that as part of the argument. NOBODY would've given up two firsts plus Davies for him. They're seconds and should be addressed as such.

 

[Patrik26]

However, the way the Subban trade was handled with the hyped press conference and him being a total bust has probably hurt the team’s credibility in the marketplace on the long term. The next big acquisition or next time the team is hyped as taking the next step is going to be met with trepidation in market until the team actually shows the progress.

It is why team’s shouldn’t make roster mover with outside hockey (or whatever sport you are discussing) motives in mind. I’m not saying Subban wasn’t a hockey move because he did for a team need at the time. But the way the move was handled was wrong and it probably going to cost more ticket sales in the long run than it generated in the short term.

The organization put Subban out there front and center before he ever stepped onto the Prudential ice as a Devil, as if he had done anything to warrant that. The press conference with the drummers and robe. The We Are the Ones video. Let's not forget the Subbanator bobblehead. That idea was sprung within two months of his acquisition. Has anyone in the marketing/promotions department ever hear of Nico Hischier? How about Blake Coleman? No, let's promote PK Subban. Hockey trade my butt. It was a marketing trade FIRST, hockey trade second. A BAD trade all around.

 

[Devils731]

I'm much more frustrated over what we gave up for him. People brush off second round picks, but those picks are nearly 1st rounders and we gave up a good prospect.

Two near-first round picks and Jeremy Davies is a HUGE price to pay for a guy that's barely serviceable.

Late first round picks act more like a second round pick than an early second round pick acts like a first rounder, assuming what people’s impressions of what those generically are.

I would have thought Davies would have had better numbers than he does this year. I’d say his status has taken a small hit compared to last year.