Around the League 2018-19: Part II

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You make a good point about the existence of an issue. But I think you are missing something. HRR split isn't something that is relatively stable at 50%. It is carved in stone at 50%. GM's who pay too much to 2nd level talents coming out of their ELC's are boxing themselves into a corner. But that is their problem, not the league's or the players'. They have no alternative but to find the cap space somewhere else. They can pay the bottom of their rosters less, or they can pay older players less to come up with it, but they can't exceed the cap.

It might be possible for them to come up with some kind of intermediate status between ELC and RFA but they would need to give up something in exchange. That might be earlier UFA, or something that makes offer sheets a more realistic proposal. I could see the players pushing for more offer sheet action anyway so maybe there is room for some give and take there.

The things that could lead to a lockout/strike though would be things that affect the final division of the pot. If you look at the previous lockouts, they all made substantial adjustments to the bottom line. As long as the division is going to stay at 50% and HRR is defined the same way, I don't think we see any more work stoppages unless there is some major change to the way revenue is generated. If the league started getting more revenue from some area outside HRR the players would want their share. I can't imagine what that might be right now though.

Neither side wants to give up current income unless there is a real payoff in the future. Adjustments to the mechanics of splitting the money are negotiable, but I don't see those issues resulting in cancelling games.

Getting lockout protection in a contract is just due diligence on the part of agents. Neither side 'knows something' until something happens.

All that said, the last lockout should never have happened. Everybody knew months, or even years in advance almost exactly how it would turn out in the end. They were really only fighting over details that could have been worked out amicably if the major points had been accepted. The big thing was the 50% split of HRR. Everybody saw that coming. The details should have been easier to work out, but both sides apparently felt like they had to fight hard for more before accepting the compromise that had been anticipated from the outset. People get really stupid when money is the issue. :laugh: We'll see. I hope you are wrong but you have history on your side.

Thanks for the response Mort. Can't say I have any particular problem with your view on things. Perhaps (heh, no perhaps about it) I'm just too jaded in some things, hockey negotiations being one of them. As you well point out the last lockout ended up where everyone knew it would from the start. I guess I'm just unwilling to accept the notion that the league can manage its' own affairs without an argument.

And you are right, it is incumbent on the General Managers to manage their available cap space. I just view it a little differently in that I fully expect them to go over to Bettman and say something like "hey, this RFA thing isn't working like intended, we need some help here". That's probably all it takes to have an issue, never mind the Olympic aspect.

As we agree, older players won't like it, younger guys want to get paid now at UFA rates, so the PA isn't going to come to any sort of agreement in the short term. I'll remain eternally unsympathetic towards them because I can't relate to the absurd amounts of money they're arguing over. I also remain unsympathetic to GMs that can't manage their finances better as well.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Thanks for the response Mort. Can't say I have any particular problem with your view on things. Perhaps (heh, no perhaps about it) I'm just too jaded in some things, hockey negotiations being one of them. As you well point out the last lockout ended up where everyone knew it would from the start. I guess I'm just unwilling to accept the notion that the league can manage its' own affairs without an argument.

And you are right, it is incumbent on the General Managers to manage their available cap space. I just view it a little differently in that I fully expect them to go over to Bettman and say something like "hey, this RFA thing isn't working like intended, we need some help here". That's probably all it takes to have an issue, never mind the Olympic aspect.

As we agree, older players won't like it, younger guys want to get paid now at UFA rates, so the PA isn't going to come to any sort of agreement in the short term. I'll remain eternally unsympathetic towards them because I can't relate to the absurd amounts of money they're arguing over. I also remain unsympathetic to GMs that can't manage their finances better as well.

I think you put your finger on it in the last para. Because there is no change to the total amounts of money for either side the issues that exist should not lead to a lockout/strike. The PA will be divided along the lines of UFA players vs RFA players. In somewhat the same way, the governors will also be divided. There won't be strong support from either party to go to the extreme.

It has always seemed a little strange that the NHL has had so many lockouts when other sports leagues seem to have learned to avoid them. The history of the lockouts shows why though. The short version is that the first one created the cap. Players would not accept that without a fight because they lost real money. Therefore we had a lockout. The second one lowered the players share (to 57% IIRC). Again, something the players wouldn't accept without a fight because they lost real money. Then the last one again saw the players losing real money.

As it appears now there are no real issues that will change the bottom line. There are some real issues in the way they get to the bottom line but because no money will be lost or gained by either side there 'should not' be a work stoppage. At least that is my theory.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Speaking of the Leafs - that is what this thread is all about, right - Nylander is within just 3 days of the deadline. If he isn't signed or traded, he misses the whole season.

There must be at least a million Nylander posts by now, but this is getting serious.

It has seemed obvious to me for quite a while that TML should trade him. Kapanen has taken his job without a hiccup. They score without him. They win without him. They clearly need a top 4 if not top 2 RHD. He has the kind of value that should return that. There are at least a couple of teams that could spare a good RHD and that could use Nylander.

Is he going to hold firm? Is Dubas? Is this just a pissing contest now? Or is it hard to trade Nylander unsigned and demanding more than full value? Something has to happen soon. Even nothing happening is something happening. A player deciding to miss a full season is pretty rare.
:popcorn:
 

tbcwpg

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Speaking of the Leafs - that is what this thread is all about, right - Nylander is within just 3 days of the deadline. If he isn't signed or traded, he misses the whole season.

There must be at least a million Nylander posts by now, but this is getting serious.

It has seemed obvious to me for quite a while that TML should trade him. Kapanen has taken his job without a hiccup. They score without him. They win without him. They clearly need a top 4 if not top 2 RHD. He has the kind of value that should return that. There are at least a couple of teams that could spare a good RHD and that could use Nylander.

Is he going to hold firm? Is Dubas? Is this just a pissing contest now? Or is it hard to trade Nylander unsigned and demanding more than full value? Something has to happen soon. Even nothing happening is something happening. A player deciding to miss a full season is pretty rare.
:popcorn:

Nylander for Pesce makes sense for both teams there. I expect Toronto will try to get him signed to an Ehlers type deal right up until the deadline though.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Nylander for Pesce makes sense for both teams there. I expect Toronto will try to get him signed to an Ehlers type deal right up until the deadline though.

If they leave it too late, he will be untradeable. The new team also needs to sign him before the Dec 1 deadline. They are not going to trade for him with 10 minutes to go. :laugh:
 

ps241

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Never should have been trading 1sts for rentals, but that is another story.


Its interesting some areas we discuss I have a 7 or 8 out of 10 confidence level in my opinion. When it comes to rental philosophy my confidence in my ever changing opinion is raging at about a 2 our of 10 at best. :confused:
 

EpicGingy

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If they leave it too late, he will be untradeable. The new team also needs to sign him before the Dec 1 deadline. They are not going to trade for him with 10 minutes to go. :laugh:

Teams could be negotiating with the Leafs and Nylander at the same time. Have to imagine any trade would be followed immediately by a contract at this point.
 

Whileee

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Deadline driven league. Once Nylander went past early November it's all about showdown until the deadline and who blinks. Both sides think they'll get the best deal then.
 

Gm0ney

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I'm surprised Trouba didn't hold out longer when he was in that situation. He just said "I made my point" and was back on Remembrance Day.
 

HannuJ

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Speaking of the Leafs - that is what this thread is all about, right - Nylander is within just 3 days of the deadline. If he isn't signed or traded, he misses the whole season.

There must be at least a million Nylander posts by now, but this is getting serious.

It has seemed obvious to me for quite a while that TML should trade him. Kapanen has taken his job without a hiccup. They score without him. They win without him. They clearly need a top 4 if not top 2 RHD. He has the kind of value that should return that. There are at least a couple of teams that could spare a good RHD and that could use Nylander.

Is he going to hold firm? Is Dubas? Is this just a pissing contest now? Or is it hard to trade Nylander unsigned and demanding more than full value? Something has to happen soon. Even nothing happening is something happening. A player deciding to miss a full season is pretty rare.
:popcorn:
very early to tell, but i think that Dubas suffers from falling in love with players. doesn't have the cold bloodedness that GMs sometimes need.
i think his goal is to keep Nylander. i don't know if he has the ability to trade high. just a gut feeling by his talk and confidence.

i do hope that Nylander isn't signed. it would really be the best for everyone. best for hockey media. probably the best for the Leafs for this year. best for the Jets' RFAs.
 

HannuJ

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I'm surprised Trouba didn't hold out longer when he was in that situation. He just said "I made my point" and was back on Remembrance Day.
every 2 weeks, you feel the pinch.
one pinch? no big deal? 2? yeah, you notice?
pinches 3 and 4 really show your resolve
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Its interesting some areas we discuss I have a 7 or 8 out of 10 confidence level in my opinion. When it comes to rental philosophy my confidence in my ever changing opinion is raging at about a 2 our of 10 at best. :confused:

:laugh: My confidence level on that issue is very high. In spite of that I folded up for the Stastny trade. I hope I've learned my lesson.

I understand the temptation - but I honestly believe it is the same reason people keep buying lottery tickets. We are psychologically wired to gamble.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Teams could be negotiating with the Leafs and Nylander at the same time. Have to imagine any trade would be followed immediately by a contract at this point.

Exactly - but there just isn't a lot of time left and the clock is ticking.

Maybe interested teams are insisting on a sign & trade to remove any uncertainty about the eventual cost. But then they might not be willing to pay what TO signs him for. Or TO might not be willing to trade him if they could sign him. I think the short time left adds to the complexity.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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very early to tell, but i think that Dubas suffers from falling in love with players. doesn't have the cold bloodedness that GMs sometimes need.
i think his goal is to keep Nylander. i don't know if he has the ability to trade high. just a gut feeling by his talk and confidence.

i do hope that Nylander isn't signed. it would really be the best for everyone. best for hockey media. probably the best for the Leafs for this year. best for the Jets' RFAs.

Well, if we assume that he will not bend and can only be signed for an overpay, I agree. I hope that any trade involves him signing somewhere else but still for fair market value - not the silly number that has been tossed around, or even close to it.
 

HannuJ

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Well, if we assume that he will not bend and can only be signed for an overpay, I agree. I hope that any trade involves him signing somewhere else but still for fair market value - not the silly number that has been tossed around, or even close to it.
again, let's see what happens this summer. the media's claiming Marner should get $10 mil/year. lolol
 

mondo3

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Toronto's winning without him. They might stick to their offer to show future holdouts that they will lose a year of salary and ice time.
 

HannuJ

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Marner's on pace for 108 - if he hits that, I think $10M will be a foregone conclusion.
sigh...i guess.
but it's 1 big season on a team with lots of offensive firepower.
why look at Mcdavid numbers when you have Pastrnak as a comparable?
 

Gm0ney

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sigh...i guess.
but it's 1 big season on a team with lots of offensive firepower.
why look at Mcdavid numbers when you have Pastrnak as a comparable?
It's not like this is Brandon Tanev on a 100 point pace. He's a 4th overall pick (from the McDavid-Eichel draft) at 21 and has done well in his 19 and 20 year old seasons. It'll be hard to take a big season here and consider it a crazy outlier. He's got star pedigree and the numbers to back it up. $10M AAV is 12.2% of an $82M cap next year and would rank him 17th among forwards...maybe lower depending on what guys like Laine, Stone, Panarin, Skinner and Duchene sign for.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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again, let's see what happens this summer. the media's claiming Marner should get $10 mil/year. lolol

Marner is scoring at quite a rate, even without AM to feed. Will need more goals to get into that range though, I think. Is he still playing RW or has he been playing C with Matthews out?

But hey, if Leafs fans want to pay JT 11, AM 11+, Marner 10 - good luck keeping a roster together with any depth at all. :laugh:
 

Aggie204

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Damn Matthews let himself go during the month he missed
 
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