Around the Dome 2016-2017: Flames hockey-related news and notes

[Lunatik]

I think the returns were fundamentally fine. A 1st and two prospects for a deadline rental or a dman who's overpaid by a couple million is solid value. The real problem is the prospects the Flames got in those deals, as they allegedly explicitly targeted those guys (also let's note that Agostino was at least decent, even if the rest were effectively never worthwhile prospects).

Berra was obviously a worthwhile prospect too, if a team paid a 2nd for him and he is still seeing NHL time. Potentially hitting 2/4 on prospects that aren't blue chippers, is actually pretty good.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Berra was obviously a worthwhile prospect too, if a team paid a 2nd for him and he is still seeing NHL time. Potentially hitting 2/4 on prospects that aren't blue chippers, is actually pretty good.

I always thought Berra was overvalued by both the Flames and Avs (the 2nd rounder was much appreciated, though), since backup goaltenders are not all that hard to find.

 

[Anglesmith]

Berra was decent as a prospect. He has a big frame, and great natural talent. Just hasn't been able to put it together, which is what takes a goalie prospect up to an NHL goalie.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Berra was worth acquiring for that scorpion kick shootout save on its own.

 

[Lunatik]

Berra was worth acquiring for that scorpion kick shootout save on its own.

His masks were worth it alone too

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Berra was worth acquiring for that scorpion kick shootout save on its own.

I know there's one HF member who thinks it was worth it merely because he opened the gate for Berra at the Prospect Camp so Berra gave him his stick and signed it for him. A camp Berra didn't even have to go to, but wanted to.

Berra was class.

(Not me, just blanking on the other user's name)

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Berra was decent as a prospect. He has a big frame, and great natural talent. Just hasn't been able to put it together, which is what takes a goalie prospect up to an NHL goalie.

I think it's a stretch to call someone a prospect at 26 years old; even a goalie.

Berra was worth acquiring for that scorpion kick shootout save on its own.

He was an entertaining dude, for sure. And I do think that Berra -> 2nd round pick had more value than a lot of prospects the Flames might've gotten in his place.

 

[Anglesmith]

I think it's a stretch to call someone a prospect at 26 years old; even a goalie.

By 'prospect' I mean it in its purest literal form, as opposed to the common hockey term. He wasn't a terrible gamble to take. He had the potential.

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

McKenzie is going further down hill every year. He used to be the clear cut #1 guy, but now? He's a distant #4 IMO. I think those league emails getting leaked, really hurt him.

What league emails?

 

[Lunatik]

What league emails?

they were Bettman's iirc, released just over a year ago. There was lots of stuff about hits to the head and head injuries and such. But for a media personality, McKenzie seemed too prevalent in them.

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

they were Bettman's iirc, released just over a year ago. There was lots of stuff about hits to the head and head injuries and such. But for a media personality, McKenzie seemed too prevalent in them.

Oh weird, I must have missed that.

 

[BigRangy]

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/flames-sign-treliving-to-contract-extension/c-289208504

Treliving extended

 

[InfinityIggy]

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/flames-sign-treliving-to-contract-extension/c-289208504

Treliving extended

And there was much rejoicing.

 

[Mobiandi]

Gaudreau with plenty of chances but no goals as the Germans take it 2-1

 

[Master Bill]

I don't know if anyone else has listened to the podcast of Brian McGrattan talking with Boomer & Warrener but I found it interesting how he mentioned Bob Hartley for some things:

- He doesn't like talking about Hartley but said he wasn't a good guy
- Hartley wouldn't even talk to frequently scratched players like himself. Hartley would walk by him in the morning not even saying hello and would sometimes go 30 days without saying hello.
- Claimed Hartley was good with the media - the fans liked Hartley, but the players knew he was a good image-maker using the media
- Made scratched/injured players feel like they were not part of the team

Maybe that's why the management made sure the "player's coach" would be a prominent characteristic in their new hire.

 

[Lunatik]

Maybe that's why the management made sure the "player's coach" would be a prominent characteristic in their new hire.

I'm of the belief that for a coaching change to be successful, they need to be very different in personality or on the ice. Gully is very different in both regards and that is why it took the team so long to adapt to his system but ultimately why he will have more success than Hartley.

 

[Calculon]

I don't know if anyone else has listened to the podcast of Brian McGrattan talking with Boomer & Warrener but I found it interesting how he mentioned Bob Hartley for some things:

- He doesn't like talking about Hartley but said he wasn't a good guy
- Hartley wouldn't even talk to frequently scratched players like himself. Hartley would walk by him in the morning not even saying hello and would sometimes go 30 days without saying hello.
- Claimed Hartley was good with the media - the fans liked Hartley, but the players knew he was a good image-maker using the media
- Made scratched/injured players feel like they were not part of the team

Maybe that's why the management made sure the "player's coach" would be a prominent characteristic in their new hire.

Stuff like this has followed Hartley around for while, re: Scott Parker. Not really surprising stuff.

The best coaches are usually a combination of both elements.

 

[Volica]

Stuff like this has followed Hartley around for while, re: Scott Parker. Not really surprising stuff.

The best coaches are usually a combination of both elements.

It's always incredibly interesting when the curtain gets peeled back on stuff we just don't know about.

Like, ask any Flames fan about Hartley, and almost all of us would be like:
"Yeah, he's an excellent funny guy. The stuff he did for guys like Ferland, seems like a likeable person; I hear he's tough on players though!"

The guy literally manipulates the media to portray one image, which is pretty crazy.

 

[Anglesmith]

It's strange, to me, that if a coach was indeed as bad as McGrattan (and Parker) allege, that it's not something that you hear more about from players he's coached. If he's a complete **** who does such nasty things that cross the line, what keeps players from talking about it? Sounds like a guy that players would have an interest in keeping out of the coaching fraternity.

Then again, on the other hand, if he did indeed foster such a toxic atmosphere, it's pretty interesting to think how much the team worked for him back in 2015.

 

[Volica]

It's strange, to me, that if a coach was indeed as bad as McGrattan (and Parker) allege, that it's not something that you hear more about from players he's coached. If he's a complete **** who does such nasty things that cross the line, what keeps players from talking about it? Sounds like a guy that players would have an interest in keeping out of the coaching fraternity.

Then again, on the other hand, if he did indeed foster such a toxic atmosphere, it's pretty interesting to think how much the team worked for him back in 2015.

Hockey is a pretty closed door sport.
Like, you rarely hear guys talk about their own teammates or coaches. It's why any mention of anti-teammate or coaching leads to a major media frenzy (see: Eichel a few weeks ago). It's not the NFL/NBA where people throw others under the bus at all times (see: Rajon Rondo, Jimmy Butler & D. Wade; Kobe). The guys who tend to speak up, are the guys without much of a playing career left; goons, etc... I would even think that players wouldn't speak up on exit meetings or anything. If they're the only ones who do it, it makes them look really bad in the eyes of the GM... then you're looking at job security, or if you'd play in the NHL again.

I think Hartley was only toxic for players that were fringe/injured. So, a guy like Monahan or Gaudreau have great things to say about him because he was likely less ****/vinegar with his stars. Other guys... not so much.

All this being said, please bring Big Ern back on a AHL/NHL deal where he can play out his last year or two in Stockton.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I agree with Volica; you're not going to hear much about a coach if he's only hurting the lower end of the roster. Those guys can't afford to complain publicly.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Saying stuff about your employer and coach wouldn't go over too well unless you want to burn bridges. At the time it's a no go for them.

 

[Anglesmith]

I meant moreso players who had retired. I totally get not wanting to burn any bridges while you are still interested in players. But over the years there must be countless players who would have been on the receiving end of this schtick.

 

[SKRusty]

It's always incredibly interesting when the curtain gets peeled back on stuff we just don't know about.

Like, ask any Flames fan about Hartley, and almost all of us would be like:
"Yeah, he's an excellent funny guy. The stuff he did for guys like Ferland, seems like a likeable person; I hear he's tough on players though!"

The guy literally manipulates the media to portray one image, which is pretty crazy.

There are several coaches like Hartley. Look no further than Babcock in Toronto. There are dozens of players who allege Babcock single handedly ended their careers by unfairly sitting them on the pine or getting them sent down to the minors. There are many articles of Mike Commodore's woes with Babs and even Dylan Larkin has come out and stated Babcocks departure was a catalyst for him graduating from college hockey.

Essentially sometimes good coaches are extreme jerks. It is hard to argue Babcocks success but it comes with a cost. There are many UFA's that will not consider playing for these coaches.

It's strange, to me, that if a coach was indeed as bad as McGrattan (and Parker) allege, that it's not something that you hear more about from players he's coached. If he's a complete **** who does such nasty things that cross the line, what keeps players from talking about it? Sounds like a guy that players would have an interest in keeping out of the coaching fraternity.

Then again, on the other hand, if he did indeed foster such a toxic atmosphere, it's pretty interesting to think how much the team worked for him back in 2015.

The public may not know who these "jerk" coaches are but almost all ufa's and agents are aware of coaches to stay away from. It is part of the reason why UFA signings and trades like Bishop's can be hard to consummate (Speculation).

Hartley is good at getting short term benefits but eventually his shelf life will run out. He really alienated the team when Mony, Johnny and Bouma were suspended. His history with the less talented players made the disciplining of these players a galvanizing force that would ensure Hartley's days were numbered. It was during this time he lost the locker room and with it the Flames spiraled out of control.

 

[Anglesmith]

He really alienated the team when Mony, Johnny and Bouma were suspended. His history with the less talented players made the disciplining of these players a galvanizing force that would ensure Hartley's days were numbered. It was during this time he lost the locker room and with it the Flames spiraled out of control.

You should probably use that "speculation" tag on all of these statements.

Hartley suspending those players is something that coaches do all the time. Now, of course, we don't know how he did it, or how he treated the players during that suspension, but the act itself is nothing associated with just Hartley in particular. That's just how teams enforce rules. Barry Trotz scratched Radulov and Kostitsyn during the playoffs for missing curfew, for instance.

Also, it doesn't make sense what you're saying here. Mistreatment of less talented players would, if anything, make poor treatment of the talented players more tolerated, because then it's even. Also, the concept of "alienating the team" doesn't make sense. How do you alienate an entire team? Relative to what entity would they become metaphorical aliens?