Speculation: Armchair GM Thread: There are no bad proposals, only bad players

[Fig]

It was either after the Flames drafted him in 2014 (Gaudreau only played 1 NHL game), or the year after in 2015 and Gaudreau had played his rookie year. They just said they saw a higher potential in Sam than Gaudreau. I don't see how it is a knock on Gaudreau as Bennett was drafted 4th overall, it's not like they were saying it about a 5th round pick.

Also, Bennett does have a higher potential. He's taller, thicker, faster, plays with a mean streak, doesn't back down from physicality (which Gaudreau clearly does, which I'm not knocking him for, he's small). Bennett also has a better shot than Gaudreau.

I'm not knocking Johnny Hockey at all in this, but based on potential Bennett could be better if he hits his full potential. Though I think Tkachuk becomes the Flames best player from the current core when they all hit their prime.

This is so bizarre and I'd love a source if you can find it. Why would they comment Bennett > Gaudreau after 1 NHL game? That makes no sense. I mean, it's a already a given if he was compared to Baertschi who was drafted higher, but again, why do you need to compare prospects in that way? Furthermore if that was the time frame, it's close around the time Bennett needed surgery. Again, weird and bizarre.

Let's also not forget that in Gaudreau's rookie, it was often times believed Baertschi was a lock for the last LW spot. Gaudreau "stole" it and was also at risk at one point in being demoted to the AHL. However, he made a huge turnaround and ended the season with a Calder mention.

 

[Volica]

^^ I do remember there being talk about GMs preferred Sam Bennett over Monahan AND Gaudreau in his D+1 year.

It was mentioned on a broadcast I'm fairly sure, or on a panel during an intermission, but I do remember it.

I mean things change, but I still think Bennett has a ridiculously high ceiling. You know he's the only guy from his draft year who was drafted as a C, who is playing as a C. I really believe that he'd be a 50-55 point winger this year had he played RW on the top unit or LW on the Backlund line; I can see the point of grooming him for centre though. I'd rather have a 50 point centre than a 55 point winger.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

With hockey players you should never make an opinion on a season, or a few week period.

These guys are human. Have ups and downs. Struggles. And we have a lot of young players.

But if you look at our players over a long period of time. We have a lot of skill. I fully expect Bennett to break out and I expect Brodie and Gaudreau will return to form. In which case the Flames will be scary.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

^^ I do remember there being talk about GMs preferred Sam Bennett over Monahan AND Gaudreau in his D+1 year.

It was mentioned on a broadcast I'm fairly sure, or on a panel during an intermission, but I do remember it.

I mean things change, but I still think Bennett has a ridiculously high ceiling. You know he's the only guy from his draft year who was drafted as a C, who is playing as a C. I really believe that he'd be a 50-55 point winger this year had he played RW on the top unit or LW on the Backlund line; I can see the point of grooming him for centre though. I'd rather have a 50 point centre than a 55 point winger.

I think people really need to internalize the bolded just a smidge. Draisaitl barely played C this year without Hall to carry him, so instead he played RW to have McDavid carry him. Reinhart was carried all year by ROR and Eichel. Pastrnak was carried by Bergeron and Marchand. Nylander was carried by Auston Matthews. Fabbri (and Brouwer) were carried by Paul Stasny.

Ekblad was carried by Campbell until he wasn't (and suddenly has his worst season... HMMM)

Bennett, if you can call it "being carried by vet", depending on Kris Versteeg, a guy who was one foot into Switzerland in September.

Good young players need linemates who can make things easier for them. Monahan had Hudler and then Gaudreau. Scheifele had Frolik, and then Wheeler/Ehlers. Laine had Scheifele and Wheeler.

 

[SKRusty]

All of the players you listed besides St. Louis exploded offensively in their 2nd full year.

Players like St Louis and Backlund are not the norm.

The ignorance of that statement says almost everything that needs to be said. Few draftees make the NHL coming directly out of the draft. The average time spent in the minors or college is 2-3 seasons. Gaudreau was a classic example of how important maturity is to a players game. Gio spent 5 years fighting his way into being a NHL player. The fact that Sam is a full time NHL player is an accomplishment in itself. Few players have the maturity in their game like Matthews, McDavid, Monahan, or Ekblad. Most spend time developing in other leagues like Forsberg in Nashville or floundering a little in the NHL like Kadri and Drouin did.

This forum over rates potential. I've been burned by way too many promising Flames prospects to just assume that Bennett will explode to be the best player on the team like some of you are saying. I'd love to be wrong though.

Also why is everyone putting Tkachuk on the 3rd line and so eager to break up the best line from last season?

Sam Bennett performed very well in the series against the Ducks where others on the team faltered. The skill, talent and potential was very evident. If you can't see it or refuse to acknowledge it that is not the forum's failings.

With the lines of:

Gaudreau- Monahan- Ferland
Tkachuck- Backlund- Frolik
Bennett- Jankowski- Lazar

It is very possible that all could be vying for the title "The First Line."

Yes I have Bennett on the wing but he is the fourth best center. Janko was dominant in the AHL last year and will be featured prominently in the Flames line-up.

The only way I see Bennett playing Center is if Backlund is moved and TBH that is unlikely.

FYI don't discount the fact that Bennett will likely be signed to a "Show Me Contract" and show us he will.

 

[djpatm]

The ignorance of that statement says almost everything that needs to be said. Few draftees make the NHL coming directly out of the draft. The average time spent in the minors or college is 2-3 seasons. Gaudreau was a classic example of how important maturity is to a players game. Gio spent 5 years fighting his way into being a NHL player. The fact that Sam is a full time NHL player is an accomplishment in itself. Few players have the maturity in their game like Matthews, McDavid, Monahan, or Ekblad. Most spend time developing in other leagues like Forsberg in Nashville or floundering a little in the NHL like Kadri and Drouin did.

That's all well in good but again, the claims are that it's not just a pie in the sky possibility but that it's actually likely that he will be the best player on this team and that he makes players like Backlund and Gaudreau baghead expendable.

For that to be a reasonable assumption he would have to already be showing that sort of skill (like the players you mentioned). So far he hasn't even been able to string together a full weeks’ worth of solid games and has gone significant stretches where it looked like he could use some time in the AHL. You're right that he is young and it'd be crazy for the team to be actively trying to get rid of him, but that doesn’t mean you ignore offers that make sense cause you have an attachment to him cause he was a high draft pick. You simply cannot assume that he is going to explode development wise and build a team around that idea. You have to take the balance of probabilities and the vast majority of players who have 63 points in their first 159 games, even if those points came at a young age, do not go on to become Gaudreau, St Louis or any other franchise player.

His 2 points and alright play during the playoffs don't mean anything. If he went in and put the team on his back and dominated, yes that's a positive sign that he might be primed for a break out season. The fact that he simply didn't suck as much as everyone else doesn't mean much.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

That's all well in good but again, the claims are that it's not just a pie in the sky possibility but that it's actually likely that he will be the best player on this team and that he makes players like Backlund and Gaudreau baghead expendable.

Backlund and Gaudreau also had a combined 25 NHL games between them at the onset of their age 21 seasons, with 24 of those being Backlund.

No, Backlund and Gaudreau are not expendable, but they're strong examples of why Sam Bennett's got more than a "pie in the sky possibility" to be the best player on the team... they along with Brodie are, after all, the best players on the team at their positions.

For that to be a reasonable assumption he would have to already be showing that sort of skill (like the players you mentioned).

He has shown that sort of skill. You have to be blind not to see it.

So far he hasn't even been able to string together a full weeks’ worth of solid games

http://www.calgarysun.com/2016/01/18/calgary-flames-sam-bennett-named-nhls-second-star-of-the-week

and has gone significant stretches where it looked like he could use some time in the AHL.

I thought Bennett could use some time in the AHL from the beginning. Development and upside are mutually exclusive. Some players need no AHL time but have no upside, others need a lot of AHL time but have a ton of it. Bennett is in the latter group. Him being rushed to the NHL was a product of a broken CHL / NHL agreement where he was too good for Junior but needed development time before being thrown to the wolves. However he has progressed just fine in the NHL, with the caveat that he's lost some power play development opportunities to such stalwarts as Joe Colborne and Michael Frolik. If you can't see the progression he made over the last year we're really done, because the player he was in October was not the player he was in April.

that doesn’t mean you ignore offers that make sense cause you have an attachment to him cause he was a high draft pick.

Bennett could be a 21st overall pick and I would value him just the same. I evaluate young players with my eyes, maybe you should start doing the same instead of your little context-less algorithms and balances of probabilities. You can talk about how a guy like MSL was "improbable" but if that's how you do player evaluation you're not going to do a very good job, as you need eyes to make evaluations, not just balances of probablities..

 

[Fig]

^^ I do remember there being talk about GMs preferred Sam Bennett over Monahan AND Gaudreau in his D+1 year.

It was mentioned on a broadcast I'm fairly sure, or on a panel during an intermission, but I do remember it.

I mean things change, but I still think Bennett has a ridiculously high ceiling. You know he's the only guy from his draft year who was drafted as a C, who is playing as a C. I really believe that he'd be a 50-55 point winger this year had he played RW on the top unit or LW on the Backlund line; I can see the point of grooming him for centre though. I'd rather have a 50 point centre than a 55 point winger.

That's just odd then. I know they compare newly drafted players to other players styles (ie: Gilmour etc.) or comment the player will complement other players. I find it weird they'd comment about players > other players prospect wise within the same core when both have barely any NHL experience.

Was this a comment solely from our management? Or was it a question to other managements in general?

I'm not saying you guys are making things up. Au contraire. I'm just thinking it's weird that they'd comment like that.

 

[Lunatik]

That's just odd then. I know they compare newly drafted players to other players styles (ie: Gilmour etc.) or comment the player will complement other players. I find it weird they'd comment about players > other players prospect wise within the same core when both have barely any NHL experience.

Was this a comment solely from our management? Or was it a question to other managements in general?

I'm not saying you guys are making things up. Au contraire. I'm just thinking it's weird that they'd comment like that.

If said, it is probably something taken completely out of context. Probably a situation where they were asked a question directly regarding the players mentioned and like teams do when talk about any prospect they acted like a smitten teenage girl and made him sound like the second coming of Jesus himself.

 

[Calculon]

Go go Marc Andre Fleury's limited NTC. Save the Flames from themselves.

With Smith, I would expect it's just Treliving conducting his usual process of checking every angle.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Flames need to avoid giving up assets for a goalie over the age of 28.

I swear the musical chairs in net are driving me crazy. Joni Ortio would probably have gotten us past the Ducks.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I think people really need to internalize the bolded just a smidge. Draisaitl barely played C this year without Hall to carry him, so instead he played RW to have McDavid carry him. Reinhart was carried all year by ROR and Eichel. Pastrnak was carried by Bergeron and Marchand. Nylander was carried by Auston Matthews. Fabbri (and Brouwer) were carried by Paul Stasny.

Ekblad was carried by Campbell until he wasn't (and suddenly has his worst season... HMMM)

Bennett, if you can call it "being carried by vet", depending on Kris Versteeg, a guy who was one foot into Switzerland in September.

Good young players need linemates who can make things easier for them. Monahan had Hudler and then Gaudreau. Scheifele had Frolik, and then Wheeler/Ehlers. Laine had Scheifele and Wheeler.

I don't mind most of this post, but the Ekblad thing? I mean, the dude got a pretty raunchy concussion. I don't think we can place the blame for his season on being carried by Campbell previously.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Flames need to avoid giving up assets for a goalie over the age of 28.

I swear the musical chairs in net are driving me crazy. Joni Ortio would probably have gotten us past the Ducks.

Ortio never got a fair shot and I could see him being a backup, but Mike Smith is still elite. If we can get a starter cheap it just makes too much sense.

I was a really big Talbot, Jones guy. I just don't see that goalie out there this year. Mrazek has oodles of potential but he's going to cost a lot and he's no sure thing.

Grubauer, Raanta I just get a very meh vibe from although I am no goalie expert and know even less about guys in the east.

If Gillies or Parsons hasn't established themselves in two years. Pay for a young goalie then.

 

[Mobiandi]

Coulda had Craig Anderson backstopping us all this time

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I don't mind most of this post, but the Ekblad thing? I mean, the dude got a pretty raunchy concussion. I don't think we can place the blame for his season on being carried by Campbell previously.

I don't take it back at all. Ekblad has some skills that allow him to succeed - but he benefitted from Campbell no less than Hamilton has benefitted from Giordano and Chara. Campbell in Florida was a heck of a player.

 

[Lunatik]

Coulda had Craig Anderson backstopping us all this time

He never wanted to sign here when we drafted him

 

[SmellOfVictory]

If there was a way to get Eberle from Edmonton, would people be down for that? I personally like him as a player.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

If there was a way to get Eberle from Edmonton, would people be down for that? I personally like him as a player.

Nope. Don't see a fit at all in our top 9. I honestly would rather bring back Jiri Hudler.

 

[Calculon]

No interest in Eberle. Gaudreau and Monahan need someone who can open up space for them and that's not Eberle. He's Kristian Huselius 2.0, or maybe a lesser version of him.

But even if the Flames were so inclined, there's no chance the Oilers move him here for anything less than a severe overpayment.

 

[FLAMES666]

Flames need to avoid giving up assets for a goalie over the age of 28.

Yes why would we want a goalie in his prime, that would be silly

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

If there was a way to get Eberle from Edmonton, would people be down for that? I personally like him as a player.

No, we already got the better of the two ATB actors.

 

[Snazu]

No, we already got the better of the two ATB actors.

 

[Skobel24]

No interest in Eberle. Gaudreau and Monahan need someone who can open up space for them and that's not Eberle. He's Kristian Huselius 2.0, or maybe a lesser version of him.

But even if the Flames were so inclined, there's no chance the Oilers move him here for anything less than a severe overpayment.

Yup. If Eberle were a free agent, I'd definitely look into him. Zero chance the Oilers trade him to Calgary without an overpayment though.

 

[The Old Master]

Flames need to avoid giving up assets for a goalie over the age of 28.

I swear the musical chairs in net are driving me crazy. Joni Ortio would probably have gotten us past the Ducks.

I think he would be a great addition ...starter for 2-3 yr.s.....and a good mentor for a young kid.....what do you think a fair price would be for maf?... since you don't seem to have a high opinion of him.

 

[HabsTown]

He's probably not available, but is the value good for you guys ?



Sean Monahan
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Mikhaïl Sergachev
Brendan Gallagher
1st 2017