Speculation: Armchair GM Thread: There are no bad proposals, only bad players

[Lunatik]

I like Kylington. I think he's very much overrated by a lot of people, but I like him.

I think the odds are very small he becomes anything more than a PP guy who slots in 5/6, which isn't bad. However, the bottom line is you have to give to get, and goaltending is our biggest need long term.

Reality is we are a pretty asset poor team, when it comes to moveable pieces. I am the most willing to move Kylington out of all our top prospects - Andersson, Jankowski, Dube, Hickey, Parsons and Gillies. I'd probably consider Fox over Kylignton if the other team values them closely, and if Brad has the feeling that Hickey won't sign, I'm sure he'd also be willing to substitute him, as would I.

I like him too, it really sounds like we agree on what he will turn out as. I'm also not sure I agree about us being an asset poor team, it's more the fans aren't willing to part with assets and ignore that you have to give up quality to get quality.

With this draft being so tight from 6-to probably 35 or so, I like the prospect of trading down to recoup a pick or two, or acquire an additional asset. A few scenarios that I think are possibilities are:

- 16 for 23 and 35
- 16 for 21 and Antti Raanta
- 16 for 20 and 51 (you pretty much had this one )
- 16 for 24, 56 and 118
- 16 for 26, 119 and Ville Pokka (this would really get the Chicago crowd into it IMO)

 

[Lunatik]

I absolutely thought about how fair a 2nd + McDonald for Grubauer would be, but I didn't want to come off as a homer, and am not completely sure what a late 2nd and a dime a dozen goalie prospect would be valued at league wide.

Also, trading down was not really motivated by recouping assets. It was strictly to get a asset that could then be flipped to help fill a long term hole (hopefully).

I don't think McDonald and a 2nd would do it personally, I think even your original proposal would be rejected TBH. Grubauer is going to take an overpayment IMO, he's protecting Orlov in the expansion draft, so he has value to Washington in that regard and I just don't see Vegas trading him, he's got a ton of potential and could be their starter for years to come.

 

[Calculon]

I'd wager he's ahead of Gio and Brodie at the same age in his own zone and he was arguably Stockton's best penalty killer. The only thing he struggles with defensively is turnovers behind the net and at the defensive blue line which is a very normal and overmagnified issue for 19 year old puck movers. 21YO Shea Theodore is playing 3rd pair right now and getting the trial by fire in that regard, but I think Ducks fans wouldn't be embarassed to say he's a top 4 D in his prime the way Flames fans would be to compliment one of our own players. I'd be shocked if Kylington isn't at least a Jake Gardiner in his prime.

Yeah, stuff like this never fully goes away even for the very best. Even Karlsson struggled with that, at least in yesterday's game.

I absolutely thought about how fair a 2nd + McDonald for Grubauer would be, but I didn't want to come off as a homer, and am not completely sure what a late 2nd and a dime a dozen goalie prospect would be valued at league wide.

Also, trading down was not really motivated by recouping assets. It was strictly to get a asset that could then be flipped to help fill a long term hole (hopefully).

Less about perception, more leverage. If Washington thinks they're losing Grubauer no matter what (i.e., McPhee's taking him for sure) and they don't care about any other player they might lose to expansion (Orlov is getting protected from what Washington fans have to say) then they should be open to getting something back for Grubauer rather than nothing. And so, based on their cap situation, a second and an expansion draft exempt prospect seems pretty fair.

Talbot essentially returned a 2nd and 3rd. So maybe add a 4th on top of MacDonald and a 2nd, or make it a 2nd+Shinkaruk. Either way, I doubt the Flames would have to give up any of their top prospects for a unestablished goalie

Raanta's a different matter though, since if the Rangers moved him prior to the draft, they'd resigning themselves to lose Fast/Lindberg instead. So the cost is essentially Raanta and Fast/Lindberg, which might be too rich.

When it comes to the Vegas Highest Bidders, McPhee has said he essentially plans on auctioning off picks to other organizations. Hard to say what it'd take to get Grubauer/Raanta/Korpisalo but one thing the Flames do have working in their favour is that not a whole of other teams in leagues need goalies right now.

If we get a bargain bin goalie and only add few underwhelming AHLers from Stockton I don't see us making the playoffs next year, especially if Bishop works out in Dallas and Kopitar/Doughty remember how to hockey again.

Right, because it's not like the Flames' core can improve by any other margin; Tkachuk, Bennett, Monahan, Gaudreau, Hamilton, Ferland, all finished products

Think folks have entirely lost perspective; this isn't the same as the late Iginla era where an aging core supplemented with absolutely nothing was the status quo. The biggest improvement year to year will come from within; organic growth of the young core. Of course that requires patience and that is just about impossible to find here.

 

[WeegarUnderwood]

I don't think McDonald and a 2nd would do it personally, I think even your original proposal would be rejected TBH. Grubauer is going to take an overpayment IMO, he's protecting Orlov in the expansion draft, so he has value to Washington in that regard and I just don't see Vegas trading him, he's got a ton of potential and could be their starter for years to come.

I thought Orlov wouldn't be exposed in the expansion draft, so then Grubauer wouldn't be protecting him. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding

I do like the idea of trading down to get an another asset so we can use that asset. Basically, what you did Mony lol.

 

[lightstorm]

A bargain bin goalie? "Underwhelming AHL'ers"?

Cam Talbot was also a bargain bin goalie. Mark Jankowski was just named to the AHL Rookie team.

Edmonton struck gold with Talbot, while we were crowning Ortio as the heir apparent not that long ago. Solved the back up position with Johnson after one month's play. I'll believe it when I'll see it.

Jankowski is 22 for gods sake, will be 23 when season starts, doesn't exactly scream "rookie" to me, no matter what the official rules are. I'll be happy if he outplays Stajan.

Kylington/Klimchuk/Andersson are underwhelming to me, sorry. Poirier, Wothersppon, Negrin, Irving, Nemisz etc were hyped up as being ready for the big show and it never materialized.

 

[Lunatik]

I will do something that I think is more realistic and TBH, I don't really like it as I'd like to see more changes.

PRE-EXPANSION
Trade 1st round pick (16th OA) and the rights to Chad Johnson to the Arizona Coyotes for Mike Smith, 1st round pick (23rd OA, originally Minnesota's pick) and 3rd round pick (69th OA, originally Detroit's pick)

EXPANSION DRAFT
Vegas Golden Knights select Hunter Shinkaruk

ENTRY DRAFT
Use picks 23, 69, 109, 140, 171 and 202 to draft prospects

RE-SIGNINGS/PROSPECT SIGNINGS
Sam Bennett - 3 years/$3,000,000
Alex Chiasson - 1 year/$1,000,000
Garnet Hathaway - 1 year/$650,000
Brett Kulak - 1 year/$700,000
Curtis Lazar - 2 years/$1,000,000
Michael Stone - 3 years/$3,750,000
Tyler Wotherspoon - 1 year/$700,000

FREE AGENCY
Darcy Kuemper - 1 year/$1,650,000
Kris Russell - 2 years/$3,000,000

LINE-UPS
Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Frolik - Backlund - Brouwer
Tkachuk - Bennett - Lazar/Chiasson
Bouma - Stajan - Lazar/Chiasson
x: Hamilton, Hathaway

Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Stone
Russell - Andersson
x: Wothersponn/Kulak

Smith
Kuemper

 

[Volica]

Edmonton struck gold with Talbot, while we were crowning Ortio as the heir apparent not that long ago. Solved the back up position with Johnson after one month's play. I'll believe it when I'll see it.

Jankowski is 22 for gods sake, will be 23 when season starts, doesn't exactly scream "rookie" to me, no matter what the official rules are. I'll be happy if he outplays Stajan.

Kylington/Klimchuk/Andersson are underwhelming to me, sorry. Poirier, Wothersppon, Negrin, Irving, Nemisz etc were hyped up as being ready for the big show and it never materialized.

You remind me of another poster
Andersson is far from underwhelming for me. As a 20 year old, he just played as a top affiliates 1D. Duncan Keith wasn't even doing that in Norfolk at that time. I'm ridiculously impressed by that kid.

 

[Lunatik]

I thought Orlov wouldn't be exposed in the expansion draft, so then Grubauer wouldn't be protecting him. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding

I do like the idea of trading down to get an another asset so we can use that asset. Basically, what you did Mony lol.

You might be right, but I think they may re-sign Alzner before the expansion draft as I think hey will want to prevent him from testing the market.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I don't think LV will take Grubauer. The teams with the best goalies (Fleury, Grubauer) LV can take legit talent from. If I'm LV I grab as many skilled forwards and D as I can. Fill out the goaltending after

 

[Otzelor]

Please stop underhyping Rutta, he is gonna fill our top4 needs

And I honestly don´t think that it will take as much as a blue chip prospect (Kylington) a 2nd and another asset to take Grubauer.

Not many teams are in need of a goalie and WSH will loose him to Vegas regardless; no need for such a gross overpayment - look at what Darling/Bishop got traded (and yes I do realise that he is rfa and not ufa)

I don't think LV will take Grubauer. The teams with the best goalies (Fleury, Grubauer) LV can take legit talent from. If I'm LV I grab as many skilled forwards and D as I can. Fill out the goaltending after

Who are they gonna take then? Nate Schmid? Brooks Orphik?
Or do you think that they will protect an ufa Shattenkirk / take him if not protected? Just as an example could do the same thing with T.J too.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Obviously the above scenario will never happen and if it did it'll cause a pitch and forks mob, however if we want to tank for Dahlin and get some value back, this is what we must do.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

I will do something that I think is more realistic and TBH, I don't really like it as I'd like to see more changes.

PRE-EXPANSION
Trade 1st round pick (16th OA) and the rights to Chad Johnson to the Arizona Coyotes for Mike Smith, 1st round pick (23rd OA, originally Minnesota's pick) and 3rd round pick (69th OA, originally Detroit's pick)

EXPANSION DRAFT
Vegas Golden Knights select Hunter Shinkaruk

ENTRY DRAFT
Use picks 23, 69, 109, 140, 171 and 202 to draft prospects

RE-SIGNINGS/PROSPECT SIGNINGS
Sam Bennett - 3 years/$3,000,000
Alex Chiasson - 1 year/$1,000,000
Garnet Hathaway - 1 year/$650,000
Brett Kulak - 1 year/$700,000
Curtis Lazar - 2 years/$1,000,000
Michael Stone - 3 years/$3,750,000
Tyler Wotherspoon - 1 year/$700,000

FREE AGENCY
Darcy Kuemper - 1 year/$1,650,000
Kris Russell - 2 years/$3,000,000

LINE-UPS
Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Frolik - Backlund - Brouwer
Tkachuk - Bennett - Lazar/Chiasson
Bouma - Stajan - Lazar/Chiasson
x: Hamilton, Hathaway

Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Stone
Russell - Andersson
x: Wothersponn/Kulak

Smith
Kuemper

So we're basically tanking for Dahlin? Gotcha.

 

[Kritty]

Obviously the above scenario will never happen and if it did it'll cause a pitch and forks mob, however if we want to tank for Dahlin and get some value back, this is what we must do.

Please explain how this makes the Flames tank? So we sign Stone to solidify the top 4 d, bring in a goalie, trade for Tyler Johnson, and somehow this is a tank? If you want to tank, you deal your assets so you get worse, not the same. And on top of that, by making these deals to tank, we should deal away a potential #1C with big upside for a mid to late 1st? Sure thing.

Please stop with the proposals.

 

[Flameshomer]

Obviously the above scenario will never happen and if it did it'll cause a pitch and forks mob, however if we want to tank for Dahlin and get some value back, this is what we must do.

Can you actually explain why you hate Monahan?
And why were giving up our Captain and hardest working player for Jason garrison and a washed up half-pint?
And why were resigning sieveiot for two years at more money...
None of this makes sense

I will do something that I think is more realistic and TBH, I don't really like it as I'd like to see more changes.

PRE-EXPANSION
Trade 1st round pick (16th OA) and the rights to Chad Johnson to the Arizona Coyotes for Mike Smith, 1st round pick (23rd OA, originally Minnesota's pick) and 3rd round pick (69th OA, originally Detroit's pick)

EXPANSION DRAFT
Vegas Golden Knights select Hunter Shinkaruk

ENTRY DRAFT
Use picks 23, 69, 109, 140, 171 and 202 to draft prospects

RE-SIGNINGS/PROSPECT SIGNINGS
Sam Bennett - 3 years/$3,000,000
Alex Chiasson - 1 year/$1,000,000
Garnet Hathaway - 1 year/$650,000
Brett Kulak - 1 year/$700,000
Curtis Lazar - 2 years/$1,000,000
Michael Stone - 3 years/$3,750,000
Tyler Wotherspoon - 1 year/$700,000

FREE AGENCY
Darcy Kuemper - 1 year/$1,650,000
Kris Russell - 2 years/$3,000,000

LINE-UPS
Gaudreau - Monahan - Ferland
Frolik - Backlund - Brouwer
Tkachuk - Bennett - Lazar/Chiasson
Bouma - Stajan - Lazar/Chiasson
x: Hamilton, Hathaway

Giordano - Hamilton
Brodie - Stone
Russell - Andersson
x: Wothersponn/Kulak

Smith
Kuemper

Same lineup as this year with a smaller bottom pair and a very suspect goalie. Doesn't make the playoffs.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

All I know is Bennett > Getzlaf.

 

[lightstorm]

Obviously the above scenario will never happen and if it did it'll cause a pitch and forks mob, however if we want to tank for Dahlin and get some value back, this is what we must do.

How exactly did we get Reinhart and Nylander? Or am I missing something?

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

How exactly did we get Reinhart and Nylander? Or am I missing something?

There's an elite 5'8 player who is not in our tank lineup...

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Can you actually explain why you hate Monahan?
And why were giving up our Captain and hardest working player for Jason garrison and a washed up half-pint?
And why were resigning sieveiot for two years at more money...
None of this makes sense

That's our Fallen for Dahlin the fallen angel lineup.

 

[Volica]

That's our Fallen for Dahlin the fallen angel lineup.

So, after we made the playoffs 'for real', we're blowing it up after one year?

 

[lightstorm]

There's an elite 5'8 player who is not in our tank lineup...

Right, I thought you cut him in half and sent 3 feet to Buffalo and the rest to Toronto. I need a break.

 

[Calculon]

Yeah, I really don't get this whole "similar lineup equals no playoffs" group think/hysteria going around.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

Yeah, I really don't get this whole "similar lineup equals no playoffs" group think/hysteria going around.

Yep. Even with a largely underperforming core for the majority of the year, this was still a team that had a shot at the division.

 

[Volica]

I'll give this a go:

UFA Signings:
Jan Rutta 1 Year - 2.3 million
Michael Stone 3 Year - 3.1 million
Chad Johnson - 1 year - 2.2 million
Patrick Sharp - 1 year - 2.1 million

RFA Signings:
Alex Chiasson - 1 year - 1.4 million
Curtis Lazar - 2 year - 1.1 million
Sam Bennett - 2 year - 3.2 million
Michael Ferland - 4 year - 2.1 million
Kulak - 2 year - 0.9 - 1.1 million
Ty Wotherspoon - 1 year - 900k
Jon Gillies - 3 year - 900k (should keep him RFA to 26)
Garnet Hathaway - 2 year - 900k

Expansion Draft:
Vegas selects veteran Matt Stajan

Trades:

Calgary:
2018 2nd round Pick + 2018 6th round pick

LV:
Antti Raanta or Philipp Grubauer (whichever Calgary wants more, and Vegas would give up)

Immediate Resigning of either goalie to a 3 year - 3 million deal.
______

Calgary:
Lance Bouma

New Jersey Devils:
2018 6th round pick
_______

AHL Graduates
Brett Kulak
Rasmus Andersson
Mark Jankowski

Lineups:

Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Patrick Sharp
Michael Frolik - Mikael Backlund - Troy Brouwer
Matthew Tkachuk - Sam Bennett - Curtis Lazar
Micheal Ferland - Mark Jankowski - Alex Chiasson
Freddie Hamilton

Mark Giordano - Dougie Hamilton
TJ Brodie - Michael Stone
Brett Kulak - Rasmus Andersson
Jan Rutta

Antti Raanta / Philipp Grubauer
Chad Johnson

PP1:
Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Sam Bennett
TJ Brodie - Dougie Hamilton

PP2:
Matthew Tkachuk - Mikael Backlund - Troy Brouwer
Mark Giordano - Jan Rutta/Rasmus Andersson

 

[Calculon]

Yep. Even with a largely underperforming core for the majority of the year, this was still a team that had a shot at the division.

Exactly. Next year, there's no new system to figure out, no contract disputes with the best offensive player, no Grossmann, no Wideman, hopefully no injuries to core players...there's lots of reason for optimism. The pessimism surrounding the core is bizarre and wholly unwarranted. An average goalie, re-signing Stone and some better depth and there's no reason for this team to not compete for the division.

I'll give this a go:

UFA Signings:
Jan Rutta 1 Year - 2.3 million
Michael Stone 3 Year - 3.1 million
Chad Johnson - 1 year - 2.2 million
Patrick Sharp - 1 year - 2.1 million

RFA Signings:
Alex Chiasson - 1 year - 1.4 million
Curtis Lazar - 2 year - 1.1 million
Sam Bennett - 2 year - 3.2 million
Michael Ferland - 4 year - 2.1 million
Kulak - 2 year - 0.9 - 1.1 million
Ty Wotherspoon - 1 year - 900k
Jon Gillies - 3 year - 900k (should keep him RFA to 26)
Garnet Hathaway - 2 year - 900k

Expansion Draft:
Vegas selects veteran Matt Stajan

Trades:

Calgary:
2018 2nd round Pick + 2018 6th round pick

LV:
Antti Raanta or Philipp Grubauer (whichever Calgary wants more, and Vegas would give up)

Immediate Resigning of either goalie to a 3 year - 3 million deal.
______

Calgary:
Lance Bouma

New Jersey Devils:
2018 6th round pick
_______

AHL Graduates
Brett Kulak
Rasmus Andersson
Mark Jankowski

Lineups:

Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Patrick Sharp
Michael Frolik - Mikael Backlund - Troy Brouwer
Matthew Tkachuk - Sam Bennett - Curtis Lazar
Micheal Ferland - Mark Jankowski - Alex Chiasson
Freddie Hamilton

Mark Giordano - Dougie Hamilton
TJ Brodie - Michael Stone
Brett Kulak - Rasmus Andersson
Jan Rutta

Antti Raanta / Philipp Grubauer
Chad Johnson

PP1:
Johnny Gaudreau - Sean Monahan - Sam Bennett
TJ Brodie - Dougie Hamilton

PP2:
Matthew Tkachuk - Mikael Backlund - Troy Brouwer
Mark Giordano - Jan Rutta/Rasmus Andersson

Outside of Vegas not taking Brouwer, this is easily the best one yet.

 

[Mr Snrub]

When will the Monahan for Lindholm meme end