Speculation: Armchair GM Thread - 2020-2021 II

[Mobiandi]

We traded our "future Norris winner" three years into his stay here and an important top 6 guy to balance our team.

Moving Monahan would not have been a death sentence. Canes fans had mentioned that Lindholm was at his best when used in a centre role. Although it came sparingly by the same coach that he ended up with here anyway. It was clear as day that Monahan was not a PPG guy when his play fell off a cliff after the ASG break and trading him when his value was at his highest would've been the best move for this team. Lindholm quickly became an all-situations guy for us in his first year. After Gaudreau, he's easily our most important player and we would have survived just fine if we flanked him with Johnny and a top-tier RW

 

[TheHudlinator]

Oh yeah, don't disagree at all. Tkachuk is playing terribly right now regardless of a lack of physicallity with a weak stick in the defensive zone that leads to turnovers. I think with Tkachuk if he starts shit between whistles with being hard nosed that actually gets the team going, but doing stuff after the game is just deflating and pointless. I feel like apart of it is that Bergeron would be clear with "Don't lick guys but keep playing your game. If you're gonna cause havoc do it because you played hard and within the rules"

Whereas it sounds like Tkachuk was told "we don't want a track meet every night" which implies he shouldn't play hard? That he shouldn't drive to the net? I'm sure the team meant "Don't be embarrassing and try to punk guys after we just lost" but the message is lost there. That's mostly conjecture but it wouldn't be surprising imo

Yea if its miscommunication then that's on everyone especially the captain who should be trying to help these guys work out their problems.

Tkachuk used to use his play between whistles to drive opponents nuts and then stuff would happen after the whistle, now it feels like Tkachuk is trying to start stuff after the whistle to drive opponents nuts but it's not effective he needs to go back to driving the net and being hard to play against.

As an outsider it seems so obvious what Tkachuk needs to do i just don't understand how he can be confused but I don't know what is truly being said to him

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I'd argue a non Flames fan who saw Lindholm play and Monahan play most of their careers (including Lindholm's stints at center in Carolina) is less biased than any of the homers here, myself included.

I do think Lindholm lacks dynamicism as a center himself, though.

Agreed with the final part on Lindholm. Ideally he lines up as a 2C, but he's closer to a 1C than Monahan.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Elliotte Friedman on 31 Thoughts podcast this morning re the Flames situation:

• Elliotte Friedman states it all started with the Muzzin puck incident
• They had an internal meeting after that and it went sideways after that
• Tkachuk was frustrated, he feels that some of his teammates didn't want him creating something every game.
• Tkachuk is confused with that as that is how he plays the game, causing chaos and getting everyone involved
• Markstromm charged down the ice, twice. Elliotte thinks it's to send a message that "we are not playing hard enough"
• Elliotte says that the Calgary group is not playing for each other
• Brad Treliving is making calls on a lot of guys. Not only for Sam Bennett.
• Elliotte says Calgary are looking at this as "It's time to change our group" (Hard to do due to Border-- but they are trying to change there group)

It is encouraging to hear that Tre wants to change the group, but I am not sure he is going to be able to get it done. Dubois was just out there and we did not get it done. But if the ask was Tkachuk, I would have passed as well.

 

[Kranix]

We traded our "future Norris winner" three years into his stay here and an important top 6 guy to balance our team.

Moving Monahan would not have been a death sentence. Canes fans had mentioned that Lindholm was at his best when used in a centre role. Although it came sparingly by the same coach that he ended up with here anyway. It was clear as day that Monahan was not a PPG guy when his play fell off a cliff after the ASG break and trading him when his value was at his highest would've been the best move for this team. Lindholm quickly became an all-situations guy for us in his first year. After Gaudreau, he's easily our most important player and we would have survived just fine if we flanked him with Johnny and a top-tier RW

That's not how assets are managed in the real world. Why would a GM trade his 1C when his value is highest unless he asked for a trade. You could say they should have traded Gio in 2015, no GM would have though.

 

[Lukin1978]

I don't see major moves until the offseason and I'm not confident in the current gm to get the job done anyway.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

. Why would a GM trade his 1C when his value is highest unless he asked for a trade.

Two reasons:

1) Because his value is highest
2) Because "his" 1C is not "a" 1C

 

[Kranix]

Two reasons:

1) Because his value is highest
2) Because "his" 1C is not "a" 1C

I was talking about an nhl gm not you

 

[Volica]

When Marchand was licking dudes there was reports of Bergeron pulling him aside and telling him to knock that shit out. I think Tkachuk has spent more time trying to start shit than just making a smart hockey play. I assume Gaudreau is one of the guys that doesn't want every game to devolve into a line brawl and I think it's on chucky to find a way to play between the whistles effectively. That's not to say he can't bring passion to the game but maybe not every night needs to end with a wtf play from Tkachuk.

Yeah, but the licking stuff is waaaaaay out there.
Imagine telling Corey Perry in 2006/07 to tone it down (Tkachuk is closer to Perry than Marchand IMO) because the Ducks didn’t want issues. That team let him do whatever he wanted then also won a cup and were dominant for nearly a decade.

I’m in full agreement, every night doesn’t need an elbow to the head of Doughty or anything; but emotion in a game isn’t a bad thing. And that’s what Tkachuk brings every shift.

Here’s something worth noting, me and my buddy were talking about. The season where Calgary was absolutely dominant in the regular season... What happened when an opposing player crowded the crease after a shot? A big scrum, pull aparts... this year? Like, nothing... No one’s going hard, no one’s playing the right way.

I always thought of Calgary as kind of Philly West. These storied Franchises who had some outright great teams, with very little show for it (one cup in Calgary, two in Philly), with their state/province rival always getting these damn generational talents; leaving the other team to build their team to be big, tough, hard to play against. Calgary is one of the easiest team to play against in the league.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Maybe trading Monahan after 18-19 makes sense on paper but when you trade your star players best friend on the team after they have their best season together is a great way to get Gaudreau to not re-sign and maybe even ask for a trade.

While the top line noticeably slumped post all star break I would defend Trev bringing them back to try and find the magic they had. If you were going to make a trade it would have been this past off-season after that line failed to click again. We had 2 options trade 1 of the 3 to find a more complimentary player for the top line or split them up and try a different productive player on the top line. But we did neither as we didn't put any of the productive players with Gaudreau-Monahan instead we have tried every cast off we can with Gaudreau-Monahan and we have let the struggles become so public we cave really get a fair value trade anymore.

 

[Volica]

I was talking about an nhl gm not you

In the HF world, every team would be in continuous rebuild/rotation world. Sell high on every asset, rebuild, sell high, rebuild. Essentially we’d be watching the NBA.

Pens would have never won back-to-back cups if HF minds were responsible. Many fans had traded Malkin a hundred times over over the years of no cups; meanwhile his value would have been highest.

To me, last summer was the time to trade one of Monahan/Gaudreau/Giordano. We failed again. And our response was signing a star goalie, a good top 4Dman, and a bunch of scrubs. No actual change to the core. The only change was moving Lindholm to centre, which has been a good move... but not amazing.

Dubois was the big move. These types of centres just aren’t made available... Flames should have looked at a trade in the offseason before it went to hell and Winnipeg also had its own disgruntled star.

Now you’re essentially hoping Eichel says “f*** this place.” And demands a move. Not like Calgary would be a great destination, but he has no NMC yet, and there are some perks depending on how we gut our team.

 

[DomBarr]

Maybe trading Monahan makes sense on paper but when you trade your star players best friend on the team after they have their best season together is a great way to get Gaudreau to not re-sign and maybe even ask for a trade.

While the top line noticeably slumped post all star break I would defend Trev bringing them back to try and find the magic they had. If you were going to make a trade it would have been this past off-season after that line failed to click again. We had 2 options trade 1 of the 3 to find a more complimentary player for the top line or split them up and try a different productive player on the top line. But we did neither as we didn't put any of the productive players with Gaudreau-Monahan instead we have tried every cast off we can with Gaudreau-Monahan and we have let the struggles become so public we cave really get a fair value trade anymore.

If they trade Monahan, Gaudreau will be going as well as they try to reset the roster. Both players will bring back a bucket load regardless of what we think of them.

 

[Volica]

If they trade Monahan, Gaudreau will be going as well as they try to reset the roster. Both players will bring back a bucket load regardless of what we think of them.

People are kidding themselves if they think that Monahan, especially, has no value in the league.

There’s probably like 15-17 teams that’d take him in a heartbeat to be their 1C/1BC. These guys always bring back value.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Yeah, but the licking stuff is waaaaaay out there.
Imagine telling Corey Perry in 2006/07 to tone it down (Tkachuk is closer to Perry than Marchand IMO) because the Ducks didn’t want issues. That team let him do whatever he wanted then also won a cup and were dominant for nearly a decade.

I’m in full agreement, every night doesn’t need an elbow to the head of Doughty or anything; but emotion in a game isn’t a bad thing. And that’s what Tkachuk brings every shift.

Here’s something worth noting, me and my buddy were talking about. The season where Calgary was absolutely dominant in the regular season... What happened when an opposing player crowded the crease after a shot? A big scrum, pull aparts... this year? Like, nothing... No one’s going hard, no one’s playing the right way.

I always thought of Calgary as kind of Philly West. These storied Franchises who had some outright great teams, with very little show for it (one cup in Calgary, two in Philly), with their state/province rival always getting these damn generational talents; leaving the other team to build their team to be big, tough, hard to play against. Calgary is one of the easiest team to play against in the league.

Imo neither Perry nor Marchand let being a pest get in the way of being a productive and useful player, they just got the bonus of being a pest.

Tkachuk does bring emotion 100% but like i said in my last post he would drive the net, start a scrum for a loss puck, but this year he has turned his back in front of the net to look for a cute pass instead of playing his game, he makes dangerous passes all over the ice where as before he would make the simple pass and be aggressive on the forecheck.

Imo Tkachuk thinks starting scrums is how you get the boys going but in reality driving the net engaging in physical battles and winning is what got the boys going and scrums were simply a by product of that.

I agree we are to easy to play against but I think that is because we have 0 identity in who we are. I don't think just gooning it up after every whistle is a winning identity I do think we have the players to play a competitive game where the top line makes high iq plays and tries to force opponents on their heels and our 2nd and 3rd lines can be more physical and hard to play against but the top line has been neutered by having guys like Simon on the wing and not more talented players like Dube, Mangi, Bennett.

I think Tkachuk is trying to be more high iq which isn't working and is starting scrums thinking that's what the team needs in reality he just needs to play physical hockey.

 

[TheHudlinator]

If they trade Monahan, Gaudreau will be going as well as they try to reset the roster. Both players will bring back a bucket load regardless of what we think of them.

Sorry I should have been more clear i was responding to the thought we should have traded Monahan after 18-19. If we trade Monahan now we most likely have to trade Gaudreau as I don't see him re-signing. On paper we could very easily keep Gaudreau even if we move Monahan.

 

[DomBarr]

Sorry I should have been more clear i was responding to the thought we should have traded Monahan after 18-19. If we trade Monahan now we most likely have to trade Gaudreau as I don't see him re-signing. On paper we could very easily keep Gaudreau even if we move Monahan.

ah, the fun about HFBoards...we get to take things out of context..

 

[Mobiandi]

That's not how assets are managed in the real world. Why would a GM trade his 1C when his value is highest unless he asked for a trade. You could say they should have traded Gio in 2015, no GM would have though.

Because it will have come after 4 futile attempts at playoff success (2016-19). Trading core players now at their lowest value while the team's under the microscope is so on point for the Flames. I can already taste the return of a B roster player, C prospect and lottery protected 1st

 

[Kranix]

People are kidding themselves if they think that Monahan, especially, has no value in the league.

There’s probably like 15-17 teams that’d take him in a heartbeat to be their 1C/1BC. These guys always bring back value.

Monahan has no value here because he's not Dubois+ every night

 

[InfinityIggy]

Monahan has no value here because too many people eat rocks for breakfast.

 

[The Red Mile]

Couple things that come to mind reading all these comments. Tkachuk is a great player and a heart a sole guy but............ this game we love is all about speed anymore and Tkachuk as he gets older will only fall farther behind imo. Monahan without Gaudreau is definitely not a number 1 center. Imo if we don’t manage to draft a number 1 elite center or trade for 1 we will continue to spin our tires. Tre needs to do anything in his power to bring that to Calgary and then we build from the middle out.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I’m just gonna say this, trading Tkachuk would be so stupid. We should keep Tkachuk, Lindholm and Backlund as a mentor to our younger players and so we don’t ice a complete shit show of a roster. That’s no way to rebuild, bringing in young players with no leadership is a recipe for failure. Any good GM will tell you the same and why do you think the Kings are keeping Kopi.

If we keep continuing to suck, this off-season you deal Gaudreau and bring in Patrick and Farabee/Frost and a 1st. Deal Monahan for another really C/W prospect (ie. Turcotte + 1st) and trade Gio for 1st + prospect.

On the backend we have the vet presence of Tanev, we build around Andersson, Hanifin and Valimaki. Then for god sakes, give Kylington some NHL minutes and see if he’s a player or not.

I would only deal Bennett if we can get really good value or add him as sweetener if we can get a can’t miss prospect, like Monahan + Bennett for Stutzle or maybe we aim for Larkin or Zibby with that deal. If not, keep Bennett, play him at C and give him 2 seasons to grow and give him all the leash he needs.

 

[Sparky93]

I’m just gonna say this, trading Tkachuk would be so stupid. We should keep Tkachuk, Lindholm and Backlund as a mentor to our younger players and so we don’t ice a complete shit show of a roster. That’s no way to rebuild, bringing in young players with no leadership is a recipe for failure. Any good GM will tell you the same and why do you think the Kings are keeping Kopi.

If we keep continuing to suck, this off-season you deal Gaudreau and bring in Patrick and Farabee/Frost and a 1st. Deal Monahan for another really C/W prospect (ie. Turcotte + 1st) and trade Gio for 1st + prospect.

On the backend we have the vet presence of Tanev, we build around Andersson, Hanifin and Valimaki. Then for god sakes, give Kylington some NHL minutes and see if he’s a player or not.

I would only deal Bennett if we can get really good value or add him as sweetener if we can get a can’t miss prospect, like Monahan + Bennett for Stutzle or maybe we aim for Larkin or Zibby with that deal. If not, keep Bennett, play him at C and give him 2 seasons to grow and give him all the leash he needs.

I don't think Treliving or any GM, with this organization would have the free rein to move out stars, at will. I don't see approval coming for a full blown rebuild, or even a heavy retool, where we take a significant step back. I think the challenge will be acquiring additional pieces for the future, via hockey trade, without tanking. For example, maybe something like Johnny + Bennett for Schwartz + Thomas.
I don't even think its just the Flames organization, money is tight everywhere. Moving 6-7 million dollar contracts for pure futures, will be very difficult.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Yeah, but the licking stuff is waaaaaay out there.
Imagine telling Corey Perry in 2006/07 to tone it down (Tkachuk is closer to Perry than Marchand IMO) because the Ducks didn’t want issues. That team let him do whatever he wanted then also won a cup and were dominant for nearly a decade.

I’m in full agreement, every night doesn’t need an elbow to the head of Doughty or anything; but emotion in a game isn’t a bad thing. And that’s what Tkachuk brings every shift.

So much this. This team has had a crises of emotional investment on the ice since Iginla left town (and debateably even when Iginla was here). The only time I can say that really changed was under Hartley for a brief time, which by no coincidence was the furthest this team has made in into the playoffs since 03/04.

That is why this reaction to Tkachuk wanting to play a certain way is so concerning, and whichever 'leaders' are against it should find their way to other teams.

 

[TheHudlinator]

Really well thought out post Hox but I disagree on a couple things.

1. I don't think we get nearly that much back from Philly for Gaudreau, nor do I think we get that much for Monahan. Not that they won't return useful pieces but I think that's over valuing them.

2. Unlike Gaudreau Chucky is an Rfa after this contract which gives him more value.

3. Some have been talking about we should have traded Monahan at the height of his value if we rebuild we should move Tkachuk because his value is high.

4. Tkachuk played most of this season pretty terribly, he has started to find his game the last couple of games but if Tkachuk is going to play like the first 15ish games when things get hard then it's best to move him.

If we rebuild i would move Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Gio (if we can't get a package that you suggested). If we rebuild and Tkachuk plays poorly we won't get nearly as much for him then as now and if he plays well we most likely miss out on a top pick so either way it hurts the rebuild.

 

[Sparky93]

Something that's been bothering me for a while is, while Lindholm himself has looked good at center, has anyone else actually looked better with him? Is this just a matter of time being needed to build chemistry or is there something about his particular style that doesn't agree with the guys we have?