Arizona Coyotes Lounge XII - The Travel Bureau

[TheLegend]

That sounds great until you realize how often those ramps are used by emergency vehicles accessing the highway the wrong way to decrease reaction time.
(I'm not advocating the automated detection system. I'm just saying the one way tire spikes aren't a great idea)

Yep.... California (LA in particular) tried it decades ago. Didn't last.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

The answer is a motion detector gate which swings closed halfway down the off ramp when a remote sensor detects a car travelling the wrong way onto the ramp. Emergency vehicles could have a cheap transponder installed to defeat the gate.

 

[Lilhoody]

That sounds great until you realize how often those ramps are used by emergency vehicles accessing the highway the wrong way to decrease reaction time.
(I'm not advocating the automated detection system. I'm just saying the one way tire spikes aren't a great idea)

I get it. Having a bypass, just as they have firebox keys to access closed schools, businesses and gates in apartments and controlled access communities could work. Like you, I'm just not an advocate of the auto detection system.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

The apartment fire in London is sad but the lack of media coverage on it is even more sad.

 

[_Del_]

It was big news in the UK and had huge coverage on Sky (as expected). It's sort of understabably taking a back seat to an attempted mass assassination at the moment on the US networks...

 

[Sinurgy]

The answer is a motion detector gate which swings closed halfway down the off ramp when a remote sensor detects a car travelling the wrong way onto the ramp. Emergency vehicles could have a cheap transponder installed to defeat the gate.

The answer is to use the money on just about anything else. Buy some school kids lunches with it or something, renovate a park, paint some old buildings...basically do just about anything other than this stupid ass project.

 

[SniperHF]

The answer is to use the money on just about anything else. Buy some school kids lunches with it or something, renovate a park, paint some old buildings...basically do just about anything other than this stupid ass project.

Maybe other areas would be a better focus, I dunno. But I'm sure the response to the rash of wrong way drivers lately has been costly itself. So if you can cut down on the resources needed to address the wrong way drivers with fixed assets it would pay off over time.

My main issue with the reporting on the matter is that it's hard to tell if there's actually been an increase or we're just on the short end of a streak right now. It could be that the rate of wrong way incidents is going up. It could be that the rate is flat but there are more collisions. Hell the rate could be down but there could be more collisions. Almost all of the articles on the issue are vague and if they aren't they still don't really break it down on a year to year basis.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

The answer is to use the money on just about anything else. Buy some school kids lunches with it or something, renovate a park, paint some old buildings...basically do just about anything other than this stupid ass project.

What a foolish, knee jerk response. Lives are being lost with no easy, cheap way to protect our people from drunk/high/cell phone distracted drivers. Gates work on the HOV lanes in Colorado to prevent wrong way drivers. Why would they not work here?

 

[rt]

I've got a large Palo Verde in my front yard. I'd like to take advantage of the shade it provides and use it as a living trellis for a vine with colorful blooms.

Behind the Palo Verde I have a row of Texas Sage that bloom purple in the spring and summer. The tree itself has those tennisball neon blooms in the spring. Along the ground in front of the tree I have alternating gold and red lantanas trimmed into bushes.

I thought a vine with maybe a blue or pink bloom would be nice. I thought of wisteria or queen's wreath but both are deciduous and I'm not sure I want the brown twigs on the palo verde in the winter. Not into the whole "haunted house" look. haha.

I thought hardenbergia would be nice to provide some color in the winter when the other blooms in the front are dormant, but it's so bushy and can get pretty leggy and doggy through the middle. I don't want the tree to have an overwhelmed, choked off look either.

I'm looking for anything with color, that's evergreen, will climb a tree without much help, and won't overwhelm the thing entirely.

Any ideas?

 

[XX]

What a foolish, knee jerk response. Lives are being lost with no easy, cheap way to protect our people from drunk/high/cell phone distracted drivers. Gates work on the HOV lanes in Colorado to prevent wrong way drivers. Why would they not work here?

Lives are being lost at a much higher rate elsewhere. You can't stupid-proof everything to an unreasonable degree. It's simply too expensive. You know who doesn't drive in the wrong lane? Autonomous cars.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Lives are being lost at a much higher rate elsewhere. You can't stupid-proof everything to an unreasonable degree. It's simply too expensive. You know who doesn't drive in the wrong lane? Autonomous cars.

We fix what we can fix. We can't fix the death rate due to guns without running afoul of the 2nd amendment. We can't fix smoking or obesity related deaths without outlawing smoking or obesity. We can't mandate autonomous driving cars for at least 20-30 years. We can fix the wrong way driving problem on Arizona highways.

 

[Sinurgy]

Maybe other areas would be a better focus, I dunno. But I'm sure the response to the rash of wrong way drivers lately has been costly itself. So if you can cut down on the resources needed to address the wrong way drivers with fixed assets it would pay off over time.

My main issue with the reporting on the matter is that it's hard to tell if there's actually been an increase or we're just on the short end of a streak right now. It could be that the rate of wrong way incidents is going up. It could be that the rate is flat but there are more collisions. Hell the rate could be down but there could be more collisions. Almost all of the articles on the issue are vague and if they aren't they still don't really break it down on a year to year basis.

ADOT did a recent report on it where they analyzed the previous 10 years of available data and the average number of wrong way crashes was 22. The year with highest was 2011 when there were 33. Incidentally the year with the lowest was the following year 2012 where there were 13.

Source: https://apps.azdot.gov/ADOTLibrary/publications/project_reports/PDF/AZ741.pdf

What a foolish, knee jerk response. Lives are being lost with no easy, cheap way to protect our people from drunk/high/cell phone distracted drivers. Gates work on the HOV lanes in Colorado to prevent wrong way drivers. Why would they not work here?

Man you really love your Appeal to Emotion don't you. Well if lives saved is our only metric, why don't we just use the money on a few ambulances or a medical helicopter? Those will save way more lives. Even better, let's use all that money to retrofit older pools with fencing then we'd not only save lives, but we'd save lives of children!!! Am I doing this right?

Seriously though, fatalities from wrong way crashes are extremely rare. On average it's 8 per year and half of those are in rural areas where these systems will not be installed. So in the Phoenix metro area we're talking about 4 fatalities per year.

We fix what we can fix. We can't fix the death rate due to guns without running afoul of the 2nd amendment. We can't fix smoking or obesity related deaths without outlawing smoking or obesity. We can't mandate autonomous driving cars for at least 20-30 years. We can fix the wrong way driving problem on Arizona highways.

We could put money into suicide prevention which where most gun fatalities come from and we'd easily save more than 4 people. We could put money into anti-smoking campaigns or eating healthy resources and again save way more than 4 people a year. Hell we could literally just hand out money to smokers, $10k a pop to stop smoking and that would save more than 4 people a year. There are just so many other areas where that money could be useful and provide much better bang for buck.

 

[_Del_]

It's just a reflexion of crisis journalism.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

ADOT did a recent report on it where they analyzed the previous 10 years of available data and the average number of wrong way crashes was 22. The year with highest was 2011 when there were 33. Incidentally the year with the lowest was the following year 2012 where there were 13.

Source: https://apps.azdot.gov/ADOTLibrary/publications/project_reports/PDF/AZ741.pdf



Man you really love your https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/29/Appeal_to_Emotion don't you. Well if lives saved is our only metric, why don't we just use the money on a few ambulances or a medical helicopter? Those will save way more lives. Even better, let's use all that money to retrofit older pools with fencing then we'd not only save lives, but we'd save lives of children!!! Am I doing this right?

Seriously though, fatalities from wrong way crashes are extremely rare. On average it's 8 per year and half of those are in rural areas where these systems will not be installed. So in the Phoenix metro area we're talking about 4 fatalities per year.


We could put money into suicide prevention which where most gun fatalities come from and we'd easily save more than 4 people. We could put money into anti-smoking campaigns or eating healthy resources and again save way more than 4 people a year. Hell we could literally just hand out money to smokers, $10k a pop to stop smoking and that would save more than 4 people a year. There are just so many other areas where that money could be useful and provide much better bang for buck.

We could even carve out some money to make a working link.

We don't need more ambulances or more helicopters in Arizona. AZ has one of the most developed air evacuation systems in the nation. In fact, many air evacs could be safely done by ambulances. Pool fences - we already have laws. Credits for fence installation, sure, but won't make a difference.

As for wrong way drivers, we are one minivan - pick up head on collision away from a mass casualty situation. We fix what we can fix.

 

[SniperHF]

Crashes isn't really the metric I'm concerned with. That's what creates the headlines as _Del_ somewhat alluded to. Any wrong way incident reported to the police can trigger a response. That's man hours spent, court costs, traffic jams, and in the event of a crash fatalities/injuries.

You say 3.7M or whatever it is for a pilot program is too much, I say maybe but there's a chance it's not if it saves that much money or more in other resources. It's not as clean cut as money spent for small issue = money wasted.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that wrong way incidents aren't really up and aren't some new crisis. But there's not really enough evidence either way and even if they aren't up that doesn't mean doing something about them can't be a public good.

 

[Sinurgy]

We could even carve out some money to make a working link.

We don't need more ambulances or more helicopters in Arizona. AZ has one of the most developed air evacuation systems in the nation. In fact, many air evacs could be safely done by ambulances. Pool fences - we already have laws. Credits for fence installation, sure, but won't make a difference.

As for wrong way drivers, we are one minivan - pick up head on collision away from a mass casualty situation. We fix what we can fix.

haha whoops, how embarrassing for me! To be fair all you had to do was copy paste but I fixed the link now.

Why not, ambulances and helicopters save lives and that's the metric you were using. Fencing pools save lives as well, just because it's a law doesn't mean everyone does it. The point is if the primary concern is saving lives there are far better uses for the money.

As for wrong way drivers, we are one minivan - pick up head on collision away from a mass casualty situation. We fix what we can fix.

There you go again, man you really are addicted to that Appeal to Emotion!

Crashes isn't really the metric I'm concerned with. That's what creates the headlines as _Del_ somewhat alluded to. Any wrong way incident reported to the police can trigger a response. That's man hours spent, court costs, traffic jams, and in the event of a crash fatalities/injuries.

You say 3.7M or whatever it is for a pilot program is too much, I say maybe but there's a chance it's not if it saves that much money or more in other resources. It's not as clean cut as money spent for small issue = money wasted.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that wrong way incidents aren't really up and aren't some new crisis. But there's not really enough evidence either way and even if they aren't up that doesn't mean doing something about them can't be a public good.

But there's no indication what you're saying was a consideration. I posted a link to the actual report, not a vague middle man article low on real information. Feel free to read the report (or more practically...skim through it), I was unable to find information suggesting the program would pay for itself via intangibles or otherwise. All signs suggest this is just a knee jerk response to a trending topic but if you can find a source that proves otherwise I'd actually like to see it. It'd certainly make me feel much better about what currently sounds like a foolish use of limited funds.

 

[SniperHF]

The study you linked is from 2015, not really sure how it can be described as knee jerk if they decide to implement one of the options in it 2 years later. It's pretty clear that cost wasn't a large factor in the report you linked nor does the report directly address what I'm talking about anyway as incidents instead of crashes. It's almost exclusively focused on crashes.

For your "debate" with Bonsai, well it's a value judgement. There isn't some formula that dictates an appropriate amount of spending on what the results are. The study you linked DOES indicate that such systems are effective in curbing wrong way collisions. That you don't think it's worth it is fine but not really evidence by itself that your various other spending suggestions are more effective.

My point wasn't that it has to pay for itself, simply that there are other angles to the story and that's one possibility you didn't seem to consider with your initial complaints about the tradeoffs.

At any rate, I'm self ejecting. Not really digging the mood of the last few posts.

 

[0point1]

I get it. Having a bypass, just as they have firebox keys to access closed schools, businesses and gates in apartments and controlled access communities could work. Like you, I'm just not an advocate of the auto detection system.

Hum... perhaps have the tire spikes but one shoulder would be free of tire spikes. Emergency vehicles can drive in the designated shoulder and avoid the spikes while wrong way drivers would get stopped. Put it midway up the ramp before the one lane becomes 2/3/4.

 

[TheLegend]

If money were no limit in protecting us all from wrong way drivers we'd all be driving around these....

30 years ago this August 11th I was a victim of a wrong way driver. On the US 395 freeway just north of Carson City, Nevada. A direct head on with both vehicles traveling about 60mph in each direction, my 1971 Ford Econoline minivan took her 80's Honda Accord straight back from point of impact 150 feet. Wheelbase of the Honda was reduced to half it's original length.

The coroner was forced to retrieve the fluid out of her eyes to get a BA sample because as he put it, "never seen a body that flat". The BA tested out at .447, which is a level that would kill most people from alcohol poisoning. Turns out she'd been in rehab twice before so her metabolism could tolerate the high amount.

3 days in ICU, another 30 in the orthopedic ward at Washoe Medical Center in Reno, 5 surgeries and 11 months of physical therapy I made it back into the working world. But not without lingering effects I have to deal with every day since, for the rest of my life.

Why am I saying all this??? It's one thing to talk about all these wrong way reports we see in the news. But until you've actually been through one you can't truly quantify it.

No amount of money spent is ever going to resolve the issue 100%. Because in essence you're trying to fix symptoms here instead of curing the real problem. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but knee jerk responses aren't the answer.

 

[Sinurgy]

The study you linked is from 2015, not really sure how it can be described as knee jerk if they decide to implement one of the options in it 2 years later. It's pretty clear that cost wasn't a large factor in the report you linked nor does the report directly address what I'm talking about anyway as incidents instead of crashes. It's almost exclusively focused on crashes.

For your "debate" with Bonsai, well it's a value judgement. There isn't some formula that dictates an appropriate amount of spending on what the results are. The study you linked DOES indicate that such systems are effective in curbing wrong way collisions. That you don't think it's worth it is fine but not really evidence by itself that your various other spending suggestions are more effective.

My point wasn't that it has to pay for itself, simply that there are other angles to the story and that's one possibility you didn't seem to consider with your initial complaints about the tradeoffs.

At any rate, I'm self ejecting. Not really digging the mood of the last few posts.

November 2015 but yes, that's still technically 2015. I think the recent media frenzy about wrong way crashes is what led to the funding. Politicians like to capitalize on visibility, that's what the knee jerk comment was referring to. Anyway yes it is pretty clear that cost wasn't a large factor in the report, they hardly addressed it all which probably means it absolutely will not pay for itself. And no they didn't address incidents either, that's why I wanted you to actually look at the report, so you can see that your speculation on incidents was not part of their motivation or at least not documented as so.

Eh I wouldn't spend it on ambulances or a helicopter either. I was throwing those out there mostly in jest because Bonsai played the save lives card. Personally I'd rather they fix up some schools, build a park, offer scholarships, pay off some debt, etc. but if the money has to in theory save lives I do think there are several other ways that would be more effective at achieving that goal.

Fair enough but if that's the case why are there no other reports highlighting these other angles? As you saw in the study, it was pretty narrowly focused and I haven't seen any further documentation extolling the various other virtues of this project. Who knows maybe they exist and I just haven't seen them, if there are other angles that make this project more redeeming, you'd think they'd point them out.

Eject away if you must.

 

[doaner]

If money were no limit in protecting us all from wrong way drivers we'd all be driving around these....

30 years ago this August 11th I was a victim of a wrong way driver. On the US 395 freeway just north of Carson City, Nevada. A direct head on with both vehicles traveling about 60mph in each direction, my 1971 Ford Econoline minivan took her 80's Honda Accord straight back from point of impact 150 feet. Wheelbase of the Honda was reduced to half it's original length.

The coroner was forced to retrieve the fluid out of her eyes to get a BA sample because as he put it, "never seen a body that flat". The BA tested out at .447, which is a level that would kill most people from alcohol poisoning. Turns out she'd been in rehab twice before so her metabolism could tolerate the high amount.

3 days in ICU, another 30 in the orthopedic ward at Washoe Medical Center in Reno, 5 surgeries and 11 months of physical therapy I made it back into the working world. But not without lingering effects I have to deal with every day since, for the rest of my life.

Why am I saying all this??? It's one thing to talk about all these wrong way reports we see in the news. But until you've actually been through one you can't truly quantify it.

No amount of money spent is ever going to resolve the issue 100%. Because in essence you're trying to fix symptoms here instead of curing the real problem. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but knee jerk responses aren't the answer.

One of our guys up north had to medically retire due to intentionally going head on to save others. It's just insane!

 

[Sinurgy]

If money were no limit in protecting us all from wrong way drivers we'd all be driving around these....

30 years ago this August 11th I was a victim of a wrong way driver. On the US 395 freeway just north of Carson City, Nevada. A direct head on with both vehicles traveling about 60mph in each direction, my 1971 Ford Econoline minivan took her 80's Honda Accord straight back from point of impact 150 feet. Wheelbase of the Honda was reduced to half it's original length.

The coroner was forced to retrieve the fluid out of her eyes to get a BA sample because as he put it, "never seen a body that flat". The BA tested out at .447, which is a level that would kill most people from alcohol poisoning. Turns out she'd been in rehab twice before so her metabolism could tolerate the high amount.

3 days in ICU, another 30 in the orthopedic ward at Washoe Medical Center in Reno, 5 surgeries and 11 months of physical therapy I made it back into the working world. But not without lingering effects I have to deal with every day since, for the rest of my life.

Well if we all got tanks then supporting this would be a no brainer!!

Holy crap, that must've been an awful experience. I can't believe you actually survived that, gives your username a whole new meaning! Do you remember the actual accident? Was it a veer across the center line of a 2-way highway type of wrong way or a full on going the wrong way on a one way highway type of crash? I think Sam Kineson was killed around there in a similar type of crash.

Why am I saying all this??? It's one thing to talk about all these wrong way reports we see in the news. But until you've actually been through one you can't truly quantify it.

I certainly can't argue that. You know who wishes we put more money into fighting brain eating amoebas? People who have brain eating amoebas!

No amount of money spent is ever going to resolve the issue 100%. Because in essence you're trying to fix symptoms here instead of curing the real problem. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but knee jerk responses aren't the answer.

I have to agree, most of these accidents are caused by people who are absolutely blasted out of their mind. People like to throw out the term "drunk driver" pretty ****ing loosely but in this case it absolutely fits, these are not people who had 1 too many at happy hour, by any metric these people drunk out of their mind!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to trying to stop these people I just think spending at least $3.7 million on a wrong way system is a horrible bang for buck.

 

[Lilhoody]

Hum... perhaps have the tire spikes but one shoulder would be free of tire spikes. Emergency vehicles can drive in the designated shoulder and avoid the spikes while wrong way drivers would get stopped. Put it midway up the ramp before the one lane becomes 2/3/4.

That could work. So too would a set of three; offset, so that a they could be navigated through by slow driving and knowing EMS personnel.

 

[TheLegend]

^^^ @Sin

The only thing I can recall about the accident was pulling out from the right hand lane to get around a box van and then see two white dots in front of me. It was that quick.

Regained consciousness about 30-45 minutes later and found myself lying around the engine cover and my shoulders in the passenger seat. Without a seat belt on (had custom swivel seats installed and hadn't yet come up with a solution) I was lucky not to get thrown out the windshield. Instead my thick skull destroyed the overhead console I'd installed above it (1" thick slab of oak) and knocked me back down.

So I come to and here's this firefighter/EMT looking right at me face to face. A few seconds later I realize something happened and for some strange reason I go into a self diagnostic mode. I start checking to see where I can feel things, and what might be broken. Of course I start to talk and notice the jaw's broken but since there was no pain it didn't stop me. Work my way down to the feet and let the EMT know what I could and could not feel. I was concerned about my neck and back because I knew they'd have to get me on a back support to take me out. I could feel my legs were already in shock since I could feel everything but the muscles had all knotted up.

All the time this is going on I could clearly hear what was going on outside. While doing the self check I could hear the helicopter landing on the freeway. Could also hear all the voices of the first responders outside including one who asked about the other victim and was told "Don't worry about her". So I was aware the other driver was gone.

Toughest thing was when they finally had to unwrap my right leg from the steering column and get both legs straightened out. Because the shock had set in it hurt like hell, and because of the head injury they could not give me anything for it. Same when lying in the ER waiting for surgery on that backboard. My lower back hurt like hell and just had to lie there.

Other than that I was lucky as hell. I'd just filled up my gas tank in Carson City and on impact the drain plug in it popped out and there was 20 gallons of fuel of the ground. There was also a doctor who was driving about three minutes behind me who was able to check me out right away. And considering how fast the emergency crews all got there (no cell phones in those days).

In the irony department, in the NHP report it noted while I was unconscious that I told the doctor to "Get me out of here". Also.... about a week after the accident the NHP officers who had the initial call came to my hospital room to check on my progress, but also had to issue me a ticket for no seat belt. They really REALLY felt bad about it, but I told them it was their job and I actually was expecting it. They were $25 fines in NV in those days anyway.

 

[TheLegend]