Are the Leafs Tough Enough for Playoffs

[Martin Skoula]

Prior ti his last 80 games, where he appears to have fallen so far off a cliff quicker than any athlete ive ever seen, Lucic posted a 10 year career of 45-55 poimts every year while being an absolute force on skates. Yes the term was long, but i believe every GM in the league would have signed him given the chance.

You cant use the most extreme example anyone has seen in years as some sort of standard.

Clarkson, Ladd, Clowe, Kane, even actually skilled guys like Perry. Simmonds is going to be the next mistake that people are going to pretend "you just couldn't see coming".

Unless we're talking about elite skill that happens to be tough (think Iginla), making long-term cap commitments to toughness is bar-none the stupidest thing you can do in this league. Bonus points if it's a retirement contract that takes the player through 35+.

 

[GOilers88]

I'm almost certain there are GM's who would not 'kill' to pay a player 5.166M for the next 5 seasons who has a career 0.29 ppg, and is in the penalty box roughly once per game

Also, PIT gave up a 1st + Sundqvist for Reaves + 2nd and then months later traded Reaves and a 4th for Tobias Lindberg. I wouldn't use that as an argument.

I didn't say they'd kill to overpay him. Mich the way Lucic is overpaid. But they'd all line up for a chance to sign them at reasonable prices because what they bring is still very much sought after in the league. A butter soft team trading for a tough guy before a playoff run is a perfect example here, so I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think it really just has to tie into your team and how they play. You dont just add toughness/grit. Your whole team needs to adopt that mentality. Especially in the playoffs. Leafs best players need to not disappear when time and space is taken away. It also has to do with teams you play. Maybe you dont run into a team that can out-physical you. Luck plays a part too.

 

[GOilers88]

Clarkson, Ladd, Clowe, Kane, even actually skilled guys like Perry. Simmonds is going to be the next mistake that people are going to pretend "you just couldn't see coming".

Unless we're talking about elite skill that happens to be tough (think Iginla), making long-term cap commitments to toughness is bar-none the stupidest thing you can do in this league. Bonus points if it's a retirement contract that takes the player through 35+.

Again. Nobody said anything about signing guys like this to huge f***ing contracts. The few hardcore examples that always get thrown around are well known. They're also well documented overpays. Just because guys have been vastly overpaid in the past doesn't mean they aren't still highly sought after. Clarkson had one decent year, so he's a bad example.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Again. Nobody said anything about signing guys like this to huge ****ing contracts. The few hardcore examples that always get thrown around are well known. They're also well documented overpays. Just because guys have been vastly overpaid in the past doesn't mean they aren't still highly sought after. Clarkson had one decent year, so he's a bad example.

If they're highly sought after, they're going to get overpaid no? Did your Oilers not offer Clarkson more money on the same term also?

If you can draft a Wilson and get value out of him before his body breaks down at 29, great. If you're getting a 29 year old Wilson through UFA or a trade, you should be fired.

 

[Cor]

I didn't say they'd kill to overpay him. Mich the way Lucic is overpaid. But they'd all line up for a chance to sign them at reasonable prices because what they bring is still very much sought after in the league. A butter soft team trading for a tough guy before a playoff run is a perfect example here, so I don't know what you're talking about.

But the going indication is that some GM's tend to overvalue the aspect.

So it's all fine and dandy saying that a GM would acquire or sign a player at a reasonable price, because they would do that with any player they feel brings a unique aspect to the team.

However, the general case is that acquiring a Tom Wilson, a Ryan Reaves, a Milan Lucic, a David Clarkson are bad investments because the affect they have on the game is incredibly overstated.

Most TOR fans, and I assume our management would love to add a Wayne Simmonds at the deadline for our playoff drive, however, PHI is likely to ask for a 1st rounder, a top prospect and maybe even a roster player in return. I would say none of our fans or our management would give that up.

If you told me I could aquire Ryan Reaves today for a career AHL guy Vegas paid to get him? I would likely do it based on our needs. However would I move down from the 1st round to get a guy like Reaves? Absolutley not.

Point is, teams would acquire these type of players if they want them, at reasonable price, but generally that isn't reality, and it can be said for any type of player. So it's not correct to say teams would "kill" to get these guys, when the majority of teams don't have one, and likely have no interest at acquiring one given the asset cost or salary cost.

 

[GOilers88]

Since 2010 the winners of the cup have been Chicago x 3, LA x 2, Boston and Pittsburgh x 2 and Washington.

With the exception being Pittsburgh, who happen to boast two of the best players of our generation, every other one of those teams won because they beat the shit out of their opponents for seven games with hard, heavy, fast hockey. This whole narrative that you don't need to be tough and speed and skill is what wins championships now is just wrong. And every cup winner outside of Pittsburgh over the last decade shows you it's wrong.

Nobody is going to convince me that hard hitting heavy hockey isn't still a huge part of going the distance.

 

[Todd from Leduc]

McDavid vs Matthews in a fight would be one sided bloodbath, has Matthews ever dropped the mitts?

 

[Kamiccolo]

I mean the Leafs have been poor for a few weeks that is fair to say, but also an opportune time to attack them. Before this stretch they were much better defensively and the players have looked bad.

It's also unfair to say they can't handle toughness.. Who are the other teams they can't handle? Boston has the Leafs number. There are many teams that other teams in the league can't seem to beat consistently for some reason.

The caps are just as big and the Leafs took them to 6 games with all games going to OT the year before and the same "soft" guys were big contributors to that run.

Who are these other teams who are big that the Leafs can't handle? I am curious to know. Because as of now, there are three teams that can potentially be called tough in the east.. Boston, Blue Jackets, and the Caps IMO.

They beat these teams all the time. I'd love to have a bit more toughness when it's needed but honestly like most things with the team it's getting blown way out of proportion.

The most important thing is the team looks like dog shit but are still winning games. It means that when they get back to their game again they don't have as big of a hill to climb.

Hoping that after being embarrassed they decide to go back to working hard. No reason for the team to be outskated by Detroit and Boston the Leafs are faster than both.

Also no reason to show up for 15 minutes back to back games and think that you can keep winning with that level of effort. For sure this winning streak went to their heads.

 

[gumgum]

Who cares, they can run 3 lines that are all arguably 1st lines on like 26 teams in the league.

 

[BostonBruins11]

I mean the Leafs have been poor for a few weeks that is fair to say, but also an opportune time to attack them. Before this stretch they were much better defensively and the players have looked bad.

It's also unfair to say they can't handle toughness.. Who are the other teams they can't handle? Boston has the Leafs number. There are many teams that other teams in the league can't seem to beat consistently for some reason.

The caps are just as big and the Leafs took them to 6 games with all games going to OT the year before and the same "soft" guys were big contributors to that run.

Who are these other teams who are big that the Leafs can't handle? I am curious to know. Because as of now, there are three teams that can potentially be called tough in the east.. Boston, Blue Jackets, and the Caps IMO.

They beat these teams all the time. I'd love to have a bit more toughness when it's needed but honestly like most things with the team it's getting blown way out of proportion.

The most important thing is the team looks like dog **** but are still winning games. It means that when they get back to their game again they don't have as big of a hill to climb.

Hoping that after being embarrassed they decide to go back to working hard. No reason for the team to be outskated by Detroit and Boston the Leafs are faster than both.

Also no reason to show up for 15 minutes back to back games and think that you can keep winning with that level of effort. For sure this winning streak went to their heads.

This is probably because you don't know a whole lot about the younger/newer bruins players. Yes the leafs are faster but not by much. The Bruins are a lot younger/faster yet next to no one has noticed(fine by me).

 

[Kamiccolo]

Since 2010 the winners of the cup have been Chicago x 3, LA x 2, Boston and Pittsburgh x 2 and Washington.

With the exception being Pittsburgh, who happen to boast two of the best players of our generation, every other one of those teams won because they beat the **** out of their opponents for seven games with hard, heavy, fast hockey. This whole narrative that you don't need to be tough and speed and skill is what wins championships now is just wrong. And every cup winner outside of Pittsburgh over the last decade shows you it's wrong.

Nobody is going to convince me that hard hitting heavy hockey isn't still a huge part of going the distance.

Huh sounds exactly like the Leafs.. Fast hockey and strong on the puck. People act like the Leafs are these perimeter guys who are scared to go anywhere into the middle of the ice.

It shows those who watch the team and those who project their wishes on them.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Since 2010 the winners of the cup have been Chicago x 3, LA x 2, Boston and Pittsburgh x 2 and Washington.

With the exception being Pittsburgh, who happen to boast two of the best players of our generation, every other one of those teams won because they beat the **** out of their opponents for seven games with hard, heavy, fast hockey. This whole narrative that you don't need to be tough and speed and skill is what wins championships now is just wrong. And every cup winner outside of Pittsburgh over the last decade shows you it's wrong.

Nobody is going to convince me that hard hitting heavy hockey isn't still a huge part of going the distance.

Agreed. Even with the Pens, Malkin and Crosby are both tough players. They just happen to be really skilled as well. Compare the two top Leafs to them. Marner is never going to be that tough but he does play hard. Matthews has the size to play as tough as them. He just needs to do it.

 

[Kamiccolo]

This is probably because you don't know a whole lot about the younger/newer bruins players. Yes the leafs are faster but not by much. The Bruins are a lot younger/faster yet next to no one has noticed(fine by me).

Nah. Trust me I am aware of what the team looks like when they are skating.. Saturday was not it. In fact, they haven't been skating for over 2 weeks as I mentioned despite their record they were winning games by Andersen standing on his head and scoring in bunches after deciding to try in the 3rd period.

People are really sleeping on how good the Leafs are when they are on. Assuming they are healthy going into the playoffs I am confident against anyone.

Boston it took until the 3rd period of game 7 to beat the Leafs team that had Matthews and Nylander basically a non factor, Andersen playing like shit half the series and Kadri, their best matchup center missing most of the series and relying on a Plekanics on his literal last legs to play an important role.

I won't claim Boston isn't a good team or anything or even they don't play the Leafs well. I will claim that their game lately is not indicative of their potential and play style that makes them dangerous.

But people are using their worst games to show why they won't win instead of their best games to show why they CAN win.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Agreed. Even with the Pens, Malkin and Crosby are both tough players. They just happen to be really skilled as well. Compare the two top Leafs to them.

I agree. Pens also usually had some tough foot soldiers to compliment that skill. The Hawks tandem of Toews and Kane may also be skilled, but they were tough players mentally as well as not shying away from bigger more physical teams.

I don't think there are any questions of the Leafs skill. But the toughness of their players in the playoffs is a question mark? They may have over compensated there.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Agreed. Even with the Pens, Malkin and Crosby are both tough players. They just happen to be really skilled as well. Compare the two top Leafs to them. Marner is never going to be that tough but he does play hard. Matthews has the size to play as tough as them. He just needs to do it.

He does play tough just not consistently. Before his injury he was a beast out there but has been soft since he returned for whatever reason but hoping as he gets more and more back into it and in shape and his confidence grows he gets back to that game for the playoffs.

Also it's kind of unfair to compare a 21 year old Matthews to the career's of a mid 30's HHOF's. They grew their games as they got better and stronger. Matthews and the entire team deserves more than 2 or even 3 years after being drafted to learn how to win in the playoffs.

It took Ovi over a decade.

 

[BostonBruins11]

Nah. Trust me I am aware of what the team looks like when they are skating.. Saturday was not it. In fact, they haven't been skating for over 2 weeks as I mentioned despite their record they were winning games by Andersen standing on his head and scoring in bunches after deciding to try in the 3rd period.

People are really sleeping on how good the Leafs are when they are on. Assuming they are healthy going into the playoffs I am confident against anyone.

Boston it took until the 3rd period of game 7 to beat the Leafs team that had Matthews and Nylander basically a non factor, Andersen playing like **** half the series and Kadri, their best matchup center missing most of the series and relying on a Plekanics on his literal last legs to play an important role.

I won't claim Boston isn't a good team or anything or even they don't play the Leafs well. I will claim that their game lately is not indicative of their potential and play style that makes them dangerous.

But people are using their worst games to show why they won't win instead of their best games to show why they CAN win.

Bruins D is much much better so it evens out.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Bruins D is much much better so it evens out.

If the best D is all that mattered the Preds would have several cups (Vezina goalie with the best D core in the league for over a decade). Vegas and the Pens would have never gotten to the finals with that defense. Calgary and Carolina would have had a much easier time making the playoffs and doing damage when they get in there.

The fact is, at the end of the day, there are many ways to win and no one way is perfect. If anything the last few years should prove that if you are big or if you are skilled so long as you get a lot of luck, and are elite in some way.

 

[authentic]

Boston seems to be all over them this season. They just dismantled them with a borderline AHL team. Also there is no documents of Matthew's being injured other than Leaf fans just saying so to make themselves feel better. Boston was also missing their #3C in Nash, their best player in Bergeron for a game, as well as their #4D for the entire series.

That is pure BS, it was said before the beginning of the playoffs on live television you complete moron lol. They've played 3 games and lost two, their last of which was by far their worst game of the season. Wait until that team gets going I think even though Boston may be their weakness amongst every team in the league I still think they are better and beat them in a 7 game series this season.

Matthews as a rookie when he was healthy had 4 goals in 6 games against Washington.

 

[RockTheRedDC]

PO is a different animal. If the Leafs get past 1st PO round, that's their cup.

Tampa and Caps are playing again the ECF. Leafs are not at the same level with at least these two teams in East.

OT still can't believe they can win any PO series till they do it.

 

[BostonBruins11]

More often than not the teams that won had elite D: Chicago, LA,Boston all had elite D . They also had elite selke players and Norris caliber D.

Both Pittsburgh and Washington D are/were better than what the Leafs currently have. Most importantly they had generational talent (Crosby, Ovechkin) which Toronto does not have.

Toronto has a lot of high end offensive talent I agree but out of all the playoff teams they have by far the worse Defensive corps.

They lack one of : elite 2 way center, generational talent, Norris Defensemen.

Every team that was won over the past decade has had one of the above.

Maybe Toronto will start something new?

If They win the cup they will probably be the team with the worse defensive group to ever win the cup. If they win Andersen better win the Hart, Vezina and Conn smythe.

 

[BananaSquad]

Lol Matthews / Tavares down the middle with Freddie in net will make them one of the tougher outs in the playoffs. I’m starting to think they might be the favourite to get to the finals in the east right now.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

They probably don't get certain calls because the refs COULD be calling interference constantly on the Leafs and choose not to. It balances out.

Interference continues to get worse as far as I see it, it's a league-wide issue. The amount of basketball "picks" off of dump and chases is ridiculous. Every team does it. I'm talking about when the forward dumps it in, one D will give him a shove, which is fine, but the the other D will come over and pull an accidentally on purpose pick. I have no idea why this isn't called.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Lol Matthews / Tavares down the middle with Freddie in net will make them one of the tougher outs in the playoffs. I’m starting to think they might be the favourite to get to the finals in the east right now.

The conference is Tampas to lose.

 

[wintersej]

Interference continues to get worse as far as I see it, it's a league-wide issue. The amount of basketball "picks" off of dump and chases is ridiculous. Every team does it. I'm talking about when the forward dumps it in, one D will give him a shove, which is fine, but the the other D will come over and pull an accidentally on purpose pick. I have no idea why this isn't called.

I agree with you while also noting that a Babcock coached team really can't complain.