Anyone questioning this team’s leadership/management?

Johnny Hoxville

The Return of a Legend
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I have no evidence to support this, but Hamonic has had injury troubles for about 4 seasons now. I think he’s been battling something for the majority of the season. Last year he was one of our best dmen for extended stretches. He’s not that old, I find it odd that he would decline so quickly.
 

Iggys Dome

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I do believe the leadership group is fragile and that resonates down to the rest of the team.
Going back to 2014-15, the time where the initial part of the "core group" formed (Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, Giordano and Brodie), anytime there's been expectations placed on them they fold.
14-15, the comeback kids the magical run to the 2nd round, there was no expectations that year, no pressure, sure it was unsustainable and lucky but it feels like they were just loose and having fun since they had no "pressure" on them.
15-16, they enter the season coming off a 2nd round playoff appearance, just acquired a young top 4 defender in Dougie Hamilton, expectations of making the playoffs but just an abysmal performance all year, the only positive taken from that year was drafting Tkachuk.
16-17, enter the season with a new coach and goaltending tandem and no expectations really, just hoping the team would be in the race and possibly snag a playoff spot, which they did, however that was mostly due to the 13-1-1 run from mid Feb to mid March, then got swept by a Ducks team that was missing some key defenders (Fowler, and Lindholm or Manson, if I'm not mistaken)
17-18, trade 3 draft picks for Hamonic, bring in a veteran goalie, there were expectations placed on the group to better their performance from the previous year, talk of them getting to the 100 point mark as a team, an inconsistent season that had them sitting in 2nd place in the division when they bye-week came about then the train came off the rails and the season ended horribly, didn't even have our lottery pick because the trade.
18-19, enter again with a new coach and lots of new additions to the line-up (Lindholm, Neal, Ryan, Dube, Czarnik, Hanifin, Valimaki) the only expectations was to fight for a playoff spot and not fold as they did the previous season. The team goes on to have one of the franchise's best regular seasons, largely carried by the play in the 1st half, as their play dropped dramatically after the all-star break.
18-19 playoffs, entering as the top seed in the west, expectations of a deep run, most fans hoping for a push to at least the 3rd round, they get run out of the building by MacKinnon and lose in 5 games to the 17th ranked team in the NHL
19-20, expectations of making the playoffs in consecutive years for the first time since they made it back to back in 08 and 09. A wildly inconsistent season thus far, being shut-out 6 times, having the horrendous 6 game losing streak only to be propped back up into playoff contention with a 7 game and a 5 game winning streak, the Bill Peters' saga, the TJ Brodie incident, their inability to score goals going from 2nd last season to 25th so far.

In my opinion, I don't believe the "core" group and leaders on this team know how to handle/perform under pressure, I would hope Treliving is going after Gallant or Laviolette to coach this group but I'm not too optimistic about that. I would ride the rest of the season out maybe call-up some deserving AHL guys (Czarnik, Quine, Gawdin), I wouldn't trade any picks or prospects for a rental as I don't believe this team is close to competing for the cup yet. If you miss the playoffs or get embarrassed in the 1st round, then start to look at the "core" group and make changes as necessary (I'd keep, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Dube, Andersson, Valimaki and Rittich, the rest can be moved for the right price). Tre has 1 more coach hire to really right this ship.

My take here could be completely wrong, as the team could come out of the break looking absolutely world class and go on a run, but based on what we've seen to date, I don't think that would happen.

TLDR: I don't think the core group can handle/perform under pressure, give them the rest of the season and see what happens before making any rash decisions.

A lot of good points in this post, the main point however is spot on, for now.

The leadership core has not shown it can perform under pressure, during the playoffs. I can't help but think that our infamous, maybe frustrating? Quality of coming back in third periods during the last few years shows this team has the give a f*** factor, when it matters, and when the pressure is off (as you've mentioned in this post). How many times has this team been down and out by 2,3 even 4 goals sometimes during the third and they've staged a miracle comeback? More times than I can count, and more times than the rest of the league can say for themselves. This team, if I'm being honest, kind of impresses me for long stretches when they seem to dominate entire games, and dictate the play. So much so, that if you browse opposing team subreddits, game threads etc. they talk about how they wish they had Johnny, Tkachuk, Monahan, Giordano, Rittich etc. And we've done this under multiple coaches (coming back/dominating for stretches), does this mean we're cup worthy? No, not at all. This team has to show another gear or two to prove they're worthy of being in that conversation.

As for Treliving and the direction that he takes our management, I can't give my opinion without saying that I have given Tre the benefit of the doubt since the Hamilton trade in 2015. Not just that, but the fact that any time there is a big name available, we always seem to be in the mix (Hamilton, Bishop, Fleury, hell even Ovechkin when there were rumours of his availability in 2017). We have been a pretty exciting team to follow the past few years, just in terms of of that sort of stuff. His ability to be consistently working the phones has been noted around the league, and that alone gives me faith that he is always trying to make this team better.

Treliving rebuilt our prospect cupboard pretty well after 2014 when it was bare as f***ing hell when he joined. We now have a pretty good core and youth group, our current prospect pool isn't great but that's to be expected when you are constantly trading picks trying to get better during your window. Now that in and of itself hasn't worked out great in our favour, but I respect Treliving for trying to address team needs during the moment.


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The only trade I can really fault Tre for is the Hamonic one from this list, and honestly even then we thought Hamonic was a top 4 defensemen with physicality, which honestly he hasn't even been bad at being during his tenure here (that Hanifin pairing though, woof.) The rest of the trades were just moves to add depth in positions of need (RD, RW, G) by giving up low risk picks (although our prospect cupboard isn't great right now as a result of it). Our drafting has been pretty good under him ( no more Kris Chucko, Negrin, Irvings). And let's be honest here, his RFA signings have been money.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean he has been perfect. Coaching hires (Gultuzan) UFA signings (Brouwer, Neal) have been kind of sort of awful maybe. It seems that Treliving has been good at building a core that we can build around, and signing them to team-friendly contracts), but he has not been good at adding the finishing pieces to compliment what is already there, despite his attempts. This is where I would think that GM like Rutherford would come in handy, someone who can add a killer piece or two in the realms of Kessel with the Penguins or something like that.

At the end of the day, building a good team is f***ing hard in the NHL. Building one that is consistently a cup threat is even harder, especially when you haven't drafted higher than 4th in the past 20 years (and that pick turned out to be Bennett, bless him). I wouldn't be surprised to see Tre canned in a couple years if we have missed the playoffs one or both seasons from now, but there is no denying he is probably the best GM of the Flames I've seen in my lifetime (yeah...not saying a whole lot). And he's human at the end of the day, he's not an omnipresent GM using player values in NHL 20 to gauge trades and stuff. There's a lot of turning parts in the NHL, and in in real life in general. He seems to handle adversity quite well, which is why my respect for him increased 10 fold with his leadership during the Peters saga which came out of nowhere. He doesn't seem to make panic moves much ( or at all, really). He waits and see's what he believes to be the best move for the team, whether it truly is or not. That in and of itself makes me think he needs more time to learn what this team really needs because none of us really know what that piece could be or even is ( I mean it could be Toffoli, or it could be trading away Monahan in the middle of the season).

The next 6 months will make or break Treliving's stay here, IMO. What he does to address the glaring need of a RH forward, and hiring a coach who can be a long-term stay (no offence to Ward) especially with a couple quality coaches available. It remains to be seen. The pacific is so f***ing tight rn, it really depends how we do the next couple of months and how this team performs in the playoffs if they make it come April. A first round exit shakes a lot of confidence around the core, winning a round or maybe 2 brings a whole lot of stability to this conversation IMO.

TLDR: BT has built a pretty good team with decent main pieces, but without much to show for. Not a whole lot to compliment it, but there is still time for this core to get something done. This organization has a lot to f***ing prove.
 
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DCDM

Da Rink Cats
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The number of assets we wasted on goaltenders.. ugh.
Also the number of goaltenders who became wasted assets lol. Leland Irving was supposed to be the next coming. Then it was Joni Ortio. Then Reto Berra. Then Karri Ramo, who was alright I guess. Then the the Eddie Lack Reclamation Project. Now we have Gillies and Parsons, and who knows what's going on with them.

That's not even mentioning the revolving door of washouts that rode through town to help get us to a point where any of those guys could potentially take over - Jonas Hiller, Brian Elliott, Mike Smith, Chad Johnson, Joey MacDonald...

It's been a really sad time since Kiprusoff retired. At least they found Rittich lol.
 
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Unlimited Chequing

Christian Yellow
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That's not even mentioning the revolving door of washouts that rode through town to help get us to a point where any of those guys could potentially take over - Jonas Hiller, Brian Elliott, Mike Smith, Chad Johnson, Joey MacDonald...

Man, just looking at that list, it just blows my mind how all of them had really high highs and really low lows. All of them, with the exception of Joey MacDonald, had really hot streaks that we benefited from, but they also shit the bed really badly.

You also forgot to include Flames legend Niklas Backstrom on that list :laugh:
 

DCDM

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Man, just looking at that list, it just blows my mind how all of them had really high highs and really low lows. All of them, with the exception of Joey MacDonald, had really hot streaks that we benefited from, but they also **** the bed really badly.

You also forgot to include Flames legend Niklas Backstrom on that list :laugh:
Oof. And Vesa Toskala :laugh:
 

Anglesmith

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Ol' Mac n' Stack did have a hot stretch too. I remember being extremely frustrated that he was being given starts over Ramp.
 

Volica

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May 15, 2012
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This is going to come across as being a dick, but I'm not overly worried about it.

I feel a lot of you forget what it's like to have a really bad general manager. I feel like we've all been around the same amount of time, but do you guys really forget what it's like having a Sutter or Feaster at the helm of a team? Literally unable to win a trade, unable to get any kind of valuable player back from free agency, zero desire to resolve the glaring holes of the team; always 'going for it'?

Like, does no one else remember hearing a rumour the Flames were involved in; and just thinking about how terrible the return is going to be? Like, no one else remembers what it's like when we traded this franchise's best player for a really mediocre/bad return... and then it just so happens that the return was actually even worse a few hours later?

This general manager is a guy a lot of you take for granted. I think he's one of the better ones in the league... and yeah, he's had his gaffes. He's signed declining players for too much money, but nothing he's done has set this franchise back half a decade like the previous regime. He's also signed our core for one of the best cap values in the league, he's actually acquired a 1C in a trade... in one of the hardest things to do in the league.

I pin this years' Flames performance on a few things.
1) Consistency. Some nights they look like a top 5 team in the NHL, other nights they look bottom 5... they have a hard time finding middle ground and have zero ability to get up for low value games. I trust this team more playing a top 10 team than I have playing a bottom 10 team; because they'll sleep at the wheel.

2) Zero depth. This team, when it's good, still relies heavily on the production of the top 4 players. I mean, most teams are like that. Regardless how many players Chicago went through, Kane, Hossa, Toews and Keith were still driving the bus. The issue is the roleplayers around them.
Doc Ryan can't be the teams best player on more than 10 nights a year... and he has been probably already. Sam Bennett has been terrible. Jankowski doesn't even look NHL caliber. You've had flashes from Dube and Mangi, but both guys haven't put it together consistently. Lucic is what he is, and I've liked him in a number of games, but he's limited in what he can do in 2020. Guys like Toby Rieder and Zac Rinaldo are depth depth guys... guys you shouldn't expect to win you games most nights.

I don't dislike Monahan, Gaudreau, Lindholm and Tkachuk as a team's top 4 forward... in fact, I'd suggest they should be competing for a top spot in the league... but man... yikes sometimes.

3) Top players showing up. I feel like Monahan, Gaudreau and even on some off nights Matty and Elias aren't engaged. They're not willing to do what it takes to win a game at all costs. Gaudreau and Monahan especially. There's games I forget Monahan's even in the lineup; and the only time you notice Gaudreau is when he's hanging his head after a goal against, or when he's turned the puck over trying to do something overly fancy.

4) Coaching issues.
I think that Peters is a good coach, but I think he sort of lost the team. He's a scumbag, but he's a fine NHL coach. Ward isn't playing to win the job, he's playing to lose the job. When the Flames starting winning with him at the helm, I didn't feel like it actually had much to do with change in strategy. He moved Lindy to C (win) but the rest oft he lineup was the same. Hani/Hammer hasn't worked this year, and it's crazy two different coaches have tried running the same pairing. Hanifin seems ready to pop, but I don't think the way they are currently setting up their D, will ever happen. They need to do something different with that top 4.
 

Bounces R Way

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I do find it encouraging the Flames are in a playoff spot after looking awful for most of the season. Even when they were winning a lot they didn't look all that great to me.

What I'm saying is there is room for improvement with this group. We've seen these guys play at a higher level than this. Realistically how much room for improvement do the Oilers or Canucks have? McDrai are already leading the league in scoring. Markstrom, Miller, Pettersson, and Boeser have been carrying the Canucks.

The Flames don't have one player in the top 50 for scoring, I just don't see how that can be after finishing 2nd in the league last year. Gaudreau and Gio need to hit another gear and so do Tkachuk and Monahan. I do think they're capable of that but those first 3 games after the break will tell me a lot about whether or not they're planning on doing so and whether or not to invest in some more scoring at the deadline.
 

DFF

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Quoting Volica
I think for the most part, you are saying the same thing every body is saying except It's not BT's fault.
 

Mobiandi

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St. Louis and Berube
Isles and Trotz
Arizona and Rick Tocchet
Pittsburgh and Mike Sullivan
Columbus and Torts
Vancouver and Travis Green
Dallas and Montgomery
Vegas and Gallant

The evidence is overwhelming. Get a proper coach to sort this team out. There's two out there right now, one of whom would be a great fit and eager to get back into it
 

Rangediddy

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I'm not sold that Tre messed up the Neal signing. On paper he was EXACTLY what this team needed. Big, tough, scoring RW with playoff experience. It was Neal that decided to stop giving a **** and screwed us over.

Because of that, Tre's hand was forced and he had to do something to get the POS quitter out of our locker room. Now we have Lucic. What can you do?

Brouwer was his biggest mistake, but Neal was out of his control... IMO.
 

Unlimited Chequing

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I'm not sold that Tre messed up the Neal signing. On paper he was EXACTLY what this team needed. Big, tough, scoring RW with playoff experience. It was Neal that decided to stop giving a **** and screwed us over.

Because of that, Tre's hand was forced and he had to do something to get the POS quitter out of our locker room. Now we have Lucic. What can you do?

Brouwer was his biggest mistake, but Neal was out of his control... IMO.

I agree with this. On paper, Neal checked off a lot of boxes but he expected to play on the first line. Go back and look at his post-signing interviews. He said he was hoping to get to play with Mony and Johnny. Of course when Mony and Johnny were clicking with Lindholm and scoring at will, Peters wasn't going to break up that chemistry. What does Neal do? He stopped trying. That's not Tre's fault.
 

Mazatt

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I blame Peters for Neal's struggles as much as I blame Neal. Peters was an asshole by all accounts and played Neal on the third line. Of course Neal should try and earn more ice time but being put in a spot where you feel you won't succeed when your career says you would succeed literally anywhere else has to be frustrating, and dealing with Peters wouldn't help with that.
 
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DFF

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No, Neal is an ass and a horrible slow no defense winger. He still is. Don't believe me, go watch some oilers games. I don't care how many goals mcdavid bounces off him.

Whoever does the pro scouting for Brad should be fired for that advice... And hamonic and brouwer...

It's a terrible franchise crippling type of move, no need to sugar coat it
 
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super6646

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I agree with this. On paper, Neal checked off a lot of boxes but he expected to play on the first line. Go back and look at his post-signing interviews. He said he was hoping to get to play with Mony and Johnny. Of course when Mony and Johnny were clicking with Lindholm and scoring at will, Peters wasn't going to break up that chemistry. What does Neal do? He stopped trying. That's not Tre's fault.

Pro-scouting failed pretty spectacularly on that one. The real issue was turning that anchor into Milan Lucic. Way too much $$$ in the bottom half of the lineup now.
 

Body Checker

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Tre loves his older slow guys making big money - Brouwer, Neal, Lucic and almost added Maroon to that list too.
 

Dack

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I don't think Neal quit on the Flames. I think he was just unlucky and is really bad.

This season he's shooting ~20%, last season he shot ~6%. Despite his shooting percentage Neal is still horrible when he's not on the powerplay.

Neal has 8 points in almost 700 5v5 minutes, he averages about 0.75 points per 60 at 5v5 compared to Lucic's 0.66. Both of those rates are in line with what an average defenseman might score at.

Treliving made 2 mistakes with Neal.

1. Signing him in the 1st place. What do pro scouts even do if our GM thinks signing Neal directly after the Brouwer debacle is a good idea? Now I'm not going to claim I saw Neal declining as quickly as he did but I will say that I didn't like the idea of 2-3 years of a very bad Neal when I thought a comparable player in Maroon was avaliable (he was actually rumored to be signing with us that day).

2. Trading him for Lucic. I'm glad Neal isn't on our team anymore but this was a step backwards. It's the Neal contract but buying it out doesn't help us, this is almost a fireable offense IMO this is crazy bad. If Neal goes back to 20 goal seasons Edmonton might be able to pull a fast one on a dumb GM who thinks he's actually rebounded, not because he'splaying with the best player in the world on a team so devoid of talent that he might be one of their better players. That's not happening with Lucic.
 

Ainsy01

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Jun 12, 2014
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Is anybody NOT questioning this teams leadership? A team this inconsistent must be questioned. Gio appears to be a great captain and a great leader, but he hasnt been dragging the guys into battle everynight on a consistent basis, and his production has dried up. I dont notice him on the ice nearly as much as i did last year, even his physicality has dwindled.

Aside from Gio, the team lacks leadership IMO. Monahan is a passenger, big soft puss. Johnnys only leadership ability is to put up 2 points everynight, and keep guys in games, hes not doing that.

Lucic was brought in to be a big tough vet. He has 2 fighting majors this year, and both of them were in the first week of the season. During the BOA BS with Kassian, Lucic was invisible.

Brodie has been okay, hes always been a quiet player, same came be said about Backlund.

We see it every year, when the games get hard at the end of the season, the flames either lose and miss the playoffs, or get bounced first round. Figured with the embarrassment of last years playoffs the guys might realize they cant just coast for 70% of a game and get wins.

Chucky is the future captain of this team and one of the only guys who can really get things going on his own. Other than that, I see a massive hole in the heart of this team.
 

Nanuuk

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Nov 16, 2013
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The problem with the Flames is the core. They've gone through 3 coaches and now maybe a 4th at the end of this season. I think Management has given the core a lot of rope in belief of their skills and that as they mature they'll be able to take a run at it. Instead, we have some prima donnas who like to collect their pay check and live the good life. So, you either get a coach that can turn these guys around or you get rid of the guys.

I like BT and I'll bet if he had his druthers he might make a big trade. Ownership might not feel the same way, I don't know.

And I'm perfectly fine with the Looch deal. Not quite ecstatic, that would come if he scored more. But a definite improvement over Neal.
 

Fig

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Dec 15, 2014
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Now that I think of it, it seems really unlucky for Treliving to have both the Wideman and Peters scandal during his tenure.
 

DFF

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Now that I think of it, it seems really unlucky for Treliving to have both the Wideman and Peters scandal during his tenure.

Random thought?

What does this have to do with anything?

Wideman was on his way out and the flames players already quit on peters...Ward, arguably the worst coach in the NHL got more wins, i would say BT got lucky with the Peters thing...lol
 
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Calculon

unholy acting talent
Jan 20, 2006
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Can't really blame the players for any of the coaching changes.

Hartley was let go because he wouldn't accede to Treliving's demands (i.e., institute a defensive system).
Gulutzan was a joke of a coach.
Peters was/is a racist.
Ward, again, joke of a coach despite the record.

Maybe if the Flames actually hired a quality coach from the get go, then one could say it's all on the players. But it's an easy fix; hire Gallant or Laviolette or even Boudreau in the summer and go from there.
 
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