Anyone questioning this team’s leadership/management?

[super6646]

Agree, but I believe the bolded is also contrary to what super is saying.

Maybe it came off the wrong way, but I don’t disagree with angel. I don’t disagree that he understands this team’s flaws, and he has “tried” to address them, but he has done a very subpar job at addressing them imo (and his prioritization has also been flawed), to the point that I think our window for competing is done.

Spent far too many assets into building a mediocre defense that isn’t all the better for it (is the team any worse with Andy in our top 4... doubt it) while failing to address offensive needs has been costly. Then the fact that the Neal signing turned into Milan Lucic is just a goddamn disaster and a total failure on the staff that brad has around him. Another left shot left winger signed long term that isnt good... yikes.

Again, not a single rhs winger on our team this year (and in fact we don’t even have a single natural rw either assuming Lindy is a centre). That is an utter failure by brad, simple as that.

 

[Fig]

Maybe it came off the wrong way, but I don’t disagree with angel. I don’t disagree that he understands this team’s flaws, and he has “tried” to address them, but he has done a very subpar job at addressing them imo (and his prioritization has also been flawed), to the point that I think our window for competing is done.

Spent far too many assets into building a mediocre defense that isn’t all the better for it (is the team any worse with Andy in our top 4... doubt it) while failing to address offensive needs has been costly. Then the fact that the Neal signing turned into Milan Lucic is just a goddamn disaster and a total failure on the staff that brad has around him. Another left shot left winger signed long term that isnt good... yikes.

Again, not a single rhs winger on our team this year (and in fact we don’t even have a single natural rw either assuming Lindy is a centre). That is an utter failure by brad, simple as that.

Sure. I can live with that opinion.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I've never stopped. Flames Fan conditioning. This franchise has made a ton of questionable decisions over the years. It's kind of what they do. 2 steps forward 1 step back and a day late and a dollar short. They can walk but seem to have trouble with the run part.

The roster is not good enough right now. You could say the same for 90% of the NHL. Treliving tried for Mark Stone, and was nearly there for Zucker and Kadri. It seems clear that they're clear there is more work to be done. The thing is I like a lot of the young players this team has. There's going to be growing pains and believe it or not every season from 2014-15 has been one. Hire a coach that knows how to get the most out of his players and add a goalscorer.

 

[DFF]

Maybe it came off the wrong way, but I don’t disagree with angel. I don’t disagree that he understands this team’s flaws, and he has “tried” to address them, but he has done a very subpar job at addressing them imo (and his prioritization has also been flawed), to the point that I think our window for competing is done.

Spent far too many assets into building a mediocre defense that isn’t all the better for it (is the team any worse with Andy in our top 4... doubt it) while failing to address offensive needs has been costly. Then the fact that the Neal signing turned into Milan Lucic is just a goddamn disaster and a total failure on the staff that brad has around him. Another left shot left winger signed long term that isnt good... yikes.

Again, not a single rhs winger on our team this year (and in fact we don’t even have a single natural rw either assuming Lindy is a centre). That is an utter failure by brad, simple as that.

100% agreed

BT's blue print is messed up. No matter how good he is, he is working on a wrong plan.

At the end of the day, you can not win with Monahan and gaudreau as your top players. Not when you get no contribution from your bottom 6.

 

[DFF]

I do not think those show an issue with Treliving understanding the team. Treliving, historically, has always made moves that really speak to what everyone thinks the team needs at a particular time. Dougie Hamilton was a free add out of nowhere. When the Flames were playing Engelland in the top 4 due to a lack of options on defence, he went out and got a guy who could fit into that spot in the lineup in Michael Stone. Stone was a UFA, and with that need still outstanding in the subsequent off-season, he pulled the trigger to go get Hamonic. When the team needed a goal-scorer with some sandpaper in the top-6, he went out and got Troy Brouwer. The big Hamilton/Hanifin/Lindholm trade dealt with a locker-room issue that had gathered smoke towards the end of that season. When the Brouwer acquisition had failed and we were still hurting for that top-six scorer, he made a buy-out, then went out and got Neal.

There has never been a moment where Treliving hasn't looked like a man with a plan. What I think he and his team do well is identifying team needs, compiling a list of guys who fit the profile and might be available, and kicking tires until they get something done. What I think they do poorly based on results is essentially pro scouting. You want the guy in charge of bringing in players to know more about those players than simply their stats and their league-wide reputation. Before bringing in Neal, someone should have chimed in that his skating is lacking and he is a mess when he isn't in the vicinity of the opponents' net, even if they couldn't predict that he would forget how to shoot the puck. Before bringing in Brouwer, someone in our management team should have been made aware of exactly how much of his offensive success in the past had come from Washington's PP and nothing else.

But in terms of understanding the actual team he has on the ice, I think he does a good job.

Sorry Hamilton was not free. It cost a prime pick+ in probably the best draft in 20 yrs

Barzal could be the #1 center we are still looking for. Connor/boeser could be that top 6 winger we are missing. Chabot may be as good as Dougie and who knows what we could get with the 2 seconds but they were good picks too.

It's not a bad trade but it's not a steal that people are making it out to be. We paid a good price.

Anyway BT vision of the defense is now a big joke compared to his all in for defense dream.

 

[Anglesmith]

Sorry Hamilton was not free. It cost a prime pick+ in probably the best draft in 20 yrs

Barzal could be the #1 center we are still looking for. Connor/boeser could be that top 6 winger we are missing. Chabot may be as good as Dougie and who knows what we could get with the 2 seconds but they were good picks too.

It's not a bad trade but it's not a steal that people are making it out to be. We paid a good price.

Anyway BT vision of the defense is now a big joke compared to his all in for defense dream.

Yes, but we didn't just flat out lose those assets. The mid first and second round picks turned into two guys picked at #5. It was a significant win in terms of asset value.

Remember that if you're talking about adding any of those guys from that draft, we're also subtracting Lindholm and Hanifin from the current roster.

 

[DFF]

Yes, but we didn't just flat out lose those assets. The mid first and second round picks turned into two guys picked at #5. It was a significant win in terms of asset value.

Remember that if you're talking about adding any of those guys from that draft, we're also subtracting Lindholm and Hanifin from the current roster.

Sure I am just saying we paid a good price. Deal is still good. It's not his biggest mistake.

 

[Bounces R Way]

 

[viper0220]

The biggest thing that f***ed this franchise was Sam Bennett not turning into the #1 center everyone thought he was.

The Hamonic trade was awful.

The Hamilton trade was ok, we have up a lot but got two good players out of it.

The UFA signings were just bad.

The coaching hires have been a disaster.

This team needs a true #1 center.

 

[Boomstick]

I'm frustrated with the whole bunch. Mostly on the ice. The effort has not been there at all this year.
I don't know what the answers are, but if they don't want to put in the work and effort on the ice, then ship them the hell out.
I have my favorites, I have 3 Gaudreau jerseys and he's done nothing but pissed me off this season.
Intermission interviews, pre game interviews, post game interviews, they all say the same thing which is right, but they never execute the next game or the next period.
Last year's regular season was too easy I guess, and I think they expected it to be an easy season this year as well since there wasn't much turnover on the roster.
I think we do need that elite coach to see if they can get another gear out of this team. Why Treliving isn't talking to Laviolette or Gallant is mind boggling.
No idea what's going to happen next for this team, but most days I don't care if they go on another 6 game losing streak. I love this team, but this season I'm hating this team too.
Everyone just looks fragile out there for some reason. Nobody has impressed me much this year. Once we get to the top of the division, we just mail it in the next couple of days and fall back in the standings. No idea why.
Yesterday was abysmal and unacceptable.
A lot of guys deserve to be in the press box for the next game, but if that was my call we'd be icing an AHL roster because a lot of these guys don't deserve to be on the ice every night.

 

[Mazatt]

I don't see how this year can be blamed on Management or leadership. Gaudreau regressing to well below the mean is something that happens sometimes in hockey, and the team is built around him enough that there isn't much the team can do without him going. Of course they SHOULD be better, but management has no bearing on that. Leadership is a maybe, but this is not a management issue.

 

[super6646]

I don't see how this year can be blamed on Management or leadership. Gaudreau regressing to well below the mean is something that happens sometimes in hockey, and the team is built around him enough that there isn't much the team can do without him going. Of course they SHOULD be better, but management has no bearing on that. Leadership is a maybe, but this is not a management issue.

I mean... its not just Gaudreau. Him falling off sucks, but there are a ton of other issues right now as well.

Far too many players pacing for under 20 pts. That is 4th line production in the NHL, and we have 4 guys in our bottom 6 who likely won't even hit that mark this year (and dube hasn't been doing much outside of a hot first 10 games either). Hell, our 4th line centre only got his 1st goal in game f***ing 50.

Our depth on RW is just a tragedy to behold as well. Flames have far too many left shot/lw on the roster, and even just those tiny disadvantages can add up. Backs and Mangiapane are 3rd liners who should be at centre and LW...

Besides that, our offense from the backend has vanished. Only Andersson is pacing for a better season than last year in that regard. 2 of our top 4 dmen have clearly taken steps back in their overall play (Gio and Hammer), while Hanifin is just having a miserable season playing on a bad team with a partner who is no longer a capable top 4 dman. The only player who is up to snuff in our top 4 has been Brodie, and even he is pacing for his worst point totals since 2013. Our third pair is good, but the coaching staff seems far to ingrained in keeping status quo.

Teams have down years, but this is the second time in three seasons the team is struggling. You have to start to wonder whether this is closer to what the Flames are than last year's team.

 

[FlamerForLife]

I do believe the leadership group is fragile and that resonates down to the rest of the team.
Going back to 2014-15, the time where the initial part of the "core group" formed (Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, Giordano and Brodie), anytime there's been expectations placed on them they fold.
14-15, the comeback kids the magical run to the 2nd round, there was no expectations that year, no pressure, sure it was unsustainable and lucky but it feels like they were just loose and having fun since they had no "pressure" on them.
15-16, they enter the season coming off a 2nd round playoff appearance, just acquired a young top 4 defender in Dougie Hamilton, expectations of making the playoffs but just an abysmal performance all year, the only positive taken from that year was drafting Tkachuk.
16-17, enter the season with a new coach and goaltending tandem and no expectations really, just hoping the team would be in the race and possibly snag a playoff spot, which they did, however that was mostly due to the 13-1-1 run from mid Feb to mid March, then got swept by a Ducks team that was missing some key defenders (Fowler, and Lindholm or Manson, if I'm not mistaken)
17-18, trade 3 draft picks for Hamonic, bring in a veteran goalie, there were expectations placed on the group to better their performance from the previous year, talk of them getting to the 100 point mark as a team, an inconsistent season that had them sitting in 2nd place in the division when they bye-week came about then the train came off the rails and the season ended horribly, didn't even have our lottery pick because the trade.
18-19, enter again with a new coach and lots of new additions to the line-up (Lindholm, Neal, Ryan, Dube, Czarnik, Hanifin, Valimaki) the only expectations was to fight for a playoff spot and not fold as they did the previous season. The team goes on to have one of the franchise's best regular seasons, largely carried by the play in the 1st half, as their play dropped dramatically after the all-star break.
18-19 playoffs, entering as the top seed in the west, expectations of a deep run, most fans hoping for a push to at least the 3rd round, they get run out of the building by MacKinnon and lose in 5 games to the 17th ranked team in the NHL
19-20, expectations of making the playoffs in consecutive years for the first time since they made it back to back in 08 and 09. A wildly inconsistent season thus far, being shut-out 6 times, having the horrendous 6 game losing streak only to be propped back up into playoff contention with a 7 game and a 5 game winning streak, the Bill Peters' saga, the TJ Brodie incident, their inability to score goals going from 2nd last season to 25th so far.

In my opinion, I don't believe the "core" group and leaders on this team know how to handle/perform under pressure, I would hope Treliving is going after Gallant or Laviolette to coach this group but I'm not too optimistic about that. I would ride the rest of the season out maybe call-up some deserving AHL guys (Czarnik, Quine, Gawdin), I wouldn't trade any picks or prospects for a rental as I don't believe this team is close to competing for the cup yet. If you miss the playoffs or get embarrassed in the 1st round, then start to look at the "core" group and make changes as necessary (I'd keep, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Dube, Andersson, Valimaki and Rittich, the rest can be moved for the right price). Tre has 1 more coach hire to really right this ship.

My take here could be completely wrong, as the team could come out of the break looking absolutely world class and go on a run, but based on what we've seen to date, I don't think that would happen.

TLDR: I don't think the core group can handle/perform under pressure, give them the rest of the season and see what happens before making any rash decisions.

 

[super6646]

I do believe the leadership group is fragile and that resonates down to the rest of the team.
Going back to 2014-15, the time where the initial part of the "core group" formed (Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, Giordano and Brodie), anytime there's been expectations placed on them they fold.
14-15, the comeback kids the magical run to the 2nd round, there was no expectations that year, no pressure, sure it was unsustainable and lucky but it feels like they were just loose and having fun since they had no "pressure" on them.
15-16, they enter the season coming off a 2nd round playoff appearance, just acquired a young top 4 defender in Dougie Hamilton, expectations of making the playoffs but just an abysmal performance all year, the only positive taken from that year was drafting Tkachuk.
16-17, enter the season with a new coach and goaltending tandem and no expectations really, just hoping the team would be in the race and possibly snag a playoff spot, which they did, however that was mostly due to the 13-1-1 run from mid Feb to mid March, then got swept by a Ducks team that was missing some key defenders (Fowler, and Lindholm or Manson, if I'm not mistaken)
17-18, trade 3 draft picks for Hamonic, bring in a veteran goalie, there were expectations placed on the group to better their performance from the previous year, talk of them getting to the 100 point mark as a team, an inconsistent season that had them sitting in 2nd place in the division when they bye-week came about then the train came off the rails and the season ended horribly, didn't even have our lottery pick because the trade.
18-19, enter again with a new coach and lots of new additions to the line-up (Lindholm, Neal, Ryan, Dube, Czarnik, Hanifin, Valimaki) the only expectations was to fight for a playoff spot and not fold as they did the previous season. The team goes on to have one of the franchise's best regular seasons, largely carried by the play in the 1st half, as their play dropped dramatically after the all-star break.
18-19 playoffs, entering as the top seed in the west, expectations of a deep run, most fans hoping for a push to at least the 3rd round, they get run out of the building by MacKinnon and lose in 5 games to the 17th ranked team in the NHL
19-20, expectations of making the playoffs in consecutive years for the first time since they made it back to back in 08 and 09. A wildly inconsistent season thus far, being shut-out 6 times, having the horrendous 6 game losing streak only to be propped back up into playoff contention with a 7 game and a 5 game winning streak, the Bill Peters' saga, the TJ Brodie incident, their inability to score goals going from 2nd last season to 25th so far.

In my opinion, I don't believe the "core" group and leaders on this team know how to handle/perform under pressure, I would hope Treliving is going after Gallant or Laviolette to coach this group but I'm not too optimistic about that. I would ride the rest of the season out maybe call-up some deserving AHL guys (Czarnik, Quine, Gawdin), I wouldn't trade any picks or prospects for a rental as I don't believe this team is close to competing for the cup yet. If you miss the playoffs or get embarrassed in the 1st round, then start to look at the "core" group and make changes as necessary (I'd keep, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Dube, Andersson, Valimaki and Rittich, the rest can be moved for the right price). Tre has 1 more coach hire to really right this ship.

My take here could be completely wrong, as the team could come out of the break looking absolutely world class and go on a run, but based on what we've seen to date, I don't think that would happen.

TLDR: I don't think the core group can handle/perform under pressure, give them the rest of the season and see what happens before making any rash decisions.

I’d like this post if I could. Can’t disagree with much being said.

 

[JPeeper]

I've never stopped. Flames Fan conditioning. This franchise has made a ton of questionable decisions over the years. It's kind of what they do. 2 steps forward 1 step back and a day late and a dollar short. They can walk but seem to have trouble with the run part.

The roster is not good enough right now. You could say the same for 90% of the NHL. Treliving tried for Mark Stone, and was nearly there for Zucker and Kadri. It seems clear that they're clear there is more work to be done. The thing is I like a lot of the young players this team has. There's going to be growing pains and believe it or not every season from 2014-15 has been one. Hire a coach that knows how to get the most out of his players and add a goalscorer.

Never really tanking during a re-build also hurts. Now I think the Flames did damn good at both #6 picks, drafting Bust Bennett and playing well during the McDavid draft didn't help. Missed out on Sasha and MacKinnon in 2013, though we eventually ended up with Lindholm and Monahan down the middle out of that draft so I can't completely complain, but getting Mac or Sasha would be a game changer obviously. 2014 was a strong draft and we get a 3rd/4th liner out of it at 4 overall. Disgusting. 2015 we pull off a miracle year and miss out on the deepest draft since 2003, yes we get Dougie for fairly cheap which has now turned into Lindholm and Hanifin which I take all day long, but if the Flames don't have a miracle run we are in the McDavid sweepstakes which many pundits had us in. 2016 comes around and we suck again, mostly due to goaltending and we miss out on #1 center Matthews, though we did stupidly well getting Tkachuk at 6, I'd take him 2nd overall in a re-draft. Point being is we're re-building without any 1st or 2nd overalls.

That's also completely ignoring trading Bouwmeester and Iginla for TRASH, NOTHING, BULLSHIT. Say what you will about Treliving, but he would have gotten damn good assets back for Bouwmeester, maybe not Iggy because of his NTC. Regehr we got nothing back (sorry Paul Byron is not a positive asset out of that trade).


James Neal also completely and utterly f***ed this organization for the next 5 years by signing a big money contract than completely no showing and being a dickhead. If Neal isn't signed we at least have the capspace to re-sign Stone if we traded for him, which I don't think we would have any way as I think Vali is too valuable going forward.

Even when the Flames are bad like in Monahan's draft (we sucked hard that year), Bennett's draft and Tkachuk's draft, other teams were far worse and I mean far worse. Now with our roster going forward I can't see anyway the Flames luck into a top 3 pick barring incredible luck, we're too good not to make the playoffs, even though we have no consistency, there's too many good pieces.

 

[HAKAN LOOB]

There's definitely issues with this team, that have been evident for multiple seasons. Last year was definitely an overachieving year, but this year shouldn't be this bad.

The whole "hey guys, Bill Peters is a racist" thing, has made a lot of people tend to forget that prior to that, the Flames had quit on him, the same way they'd quit on Hartley and Gulutzan. That right there shows there's a definite issue with the team's leadership. I think Gulutzan was probably on the money when he said these guys only play when it's easy. It's not really a team built around guys who've won at the professional level, outside of Backlund none of the players around for a long time have even medaled in the World Championship, I know the World Championship isn't much, but this isn't a team that's had deep playoff runs preventing players from going.

Management has a lot of blame too, if the stories about Brouwer, Hamilton AND Neal, all being locker room issues, are actually true. 3 screw ups in a 3 year span is horrid. That's in addition to building a team that's small, soft and slow, not particularly skilled, when the league's successful teams have moved away from those traits. As much as a player like Kadri would've helped our forward make-up issues, just imagine how awful we'd be without TJ Brodie.

Overall, there's some decent bones in the skeleton of this team, there just aren't many. I think there needs to be some changes to the team, but that's a lot easier said than done.

 

[super6646]

This team even manages to piss me off in my dreams lol. Let’s just hope they don’t implode to Edmonton after a bad offside call...

 

[JPeeper]

There's definitely issues with this team, that have been evident for multiple seasons. Last year was definitely an overachieving year, but this year shouldn't be this bad.

The whole "hey guys, Bill Peters is a racist" thing, has made a lot of people tend to forget that prior to that, the Flames had quit on him, the same way they'd quit on Hartley and Gulutzan. That right there shows there's a definite issue with the team's leadership. I think Gulutzan was probably on the money when he said these guys only play when it's easy. It's not really a team built around guys who've won at the professional level, outside of Backlund none of the players around for a long time have even medaled in the World Championship, I know the World Championship isn't much, but this isn't a team that's had deep playoff runs preventing players from going.

Management has a lot of blame too, if the stories about Brouwer, Hamilton AND Neal, all being locker room issues, are actually true. 3 screw ups in a 3 year span is horrid. That's in addition to building a team that's small, soft and slow, not particularly skilled, when the league's successful teams have moved away from those traits. As much as a player like Kadri would've helped our forward make-up issues, just imagine how awful we'd be without TJ Brodie.

Overall, there's some decent bones in the skeleton of this team, there just aren't many. I think there needs to be some changes to the team, but that's a lot easier said than done.

Gaudreau was a perennial winner before joining the Flames. Tkachuk scored the game winner for the Memorial Cup. Our starts [should] know how to win.

 

[Dack]

Gaudreau was a perennial winner before joining the Flames. Tkachuk scored the game winner for the Memorial Cup. Our starts [should] know how to win.

It's the team more than the personnel. We don't set our stars up for success and then call them out for not being good enough. Gaudreau will do absolutely fine (yeah in the playoffs too, people seem to forget that he had 9 points in 11 games in his rookie year when both Monahan and Hudler were playing injured) elsewhere assuming that this is just an off season. Same goes for Tkachuk.

The entire team sucked in last years playoffs. Last years top line performed statistically (not good but about break even) as the best line on the roster, that doesn't matter when the 2nd pair and the 3rd line both killed the team anytime they were on the ice.


I've become increasingly disillusioned with Treliving. I don't think he's a bad GM but I also don't see him as a good one, in a word he's mediocre.


As an added bonus we're building around wingers again. Because it worked so well in the Iginla era outside of 2004.

 

[DFF]

At the end of the day, the main problem is BT f***ed this team up with the UFA signings and the hamonic deal. It robbed the team the cap space and the draft picks to get the depth it needs to compete.

On top of that the core pieces, gaudreau, gio, backlund and hamonic are playing like shit way below their standard. Out of those, only Johnny has any hope of coming out of the slump....we 'll be first round exit or 9th place again and the cycle continues. BT is working from a flawed plan.

 

[lightstorm]

Gaudreau was a perennial winner before joining the Flames. Tkachuk scored the game winner for the Memorial Cup. Our starts [should] know how to win.

Yeah Gaudreau was a winner when it was easy, in the NCAA against notable powerhouses such as Ben Hutton, Noel Acciari and Mark "one-goal" Jankowski

 

[Dack]

Yeah Gaudreau was a winner when it was easy, in the NCAA against notable powerhouses such as Ben Hutton, Noel Acciari and Mark "one-goal" Jankowski

Or you know maybe a 5' 9 winger shouldn't be your best forward? Put him on a line or even a team where the opposition can't focus entirely on slowing him down and I think his playoffs would be a different story.

 

[Dack]

Also the Hamonic trade was such a colossal waste of assets. Love Travis Hamonic the person but in his time in Calgary he's been at best a #4 and at other times a bottom pairing guy and for that we paid.

12th overall (likely would have been an even higher pick if we hadn't had Hamonic), and two seconds (another asset that Treliving has not handled well at all). Those picks should have been used or at the very least traded for someone around the age of our younger core.

 

[Mobiandi]

To quote a true philosopher from this section, Treliving isn't serious about winning if Mark Jankowski is still with the Flames at the end of the bye week, while Czarnik is left to languish in the minors.

That is step number one in getting this season back on track and the easiest one to make

 

[Mobiandi]

Also the Hamonic trade was such a colossal waste of assets. Love Travis Hamonic the person but in his time in Calgary he's been at best a #4 and at other times a bottom pairing guy and for that we paid.

12th overall (likely would have been an even higher pick if we hadn't had Hamonic), and two seconds (another asset that Treliving has not handled well at all). Those picks should have been used or at the very least traded for someone around the age of our younger core.

The fact that he was so bad against the Avs and is outright terrible this season turned this trade from a win-win in my eyes into an ugly loss on our end