OT: All Things Game of Thrones III (The End!?)

[Ruck Over]

The implication that I said Russian troll farms are to blame for GOT criticism.

That was sarcasm due to the continuation of the sidebar conversation between yourself and Rebs devolving into blaming whatever on Russia, that Peter Man also chimed in on. I found it amusing, so I included it to spark joy in this thread.

Excluding the comment, "Something something Russia?", would my previous comment be considered a straw man argument?

Heck, I even put an edit in there as a peace offering, and that was ignored. Because protectors gotta swell up and be cock diesel, 24/7.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That was sarcasm due to the continuation of the sidebar conversation between yourself and Rebs devolving into blaming whatever on Russia, that PeterMan also chimed in on. I found it amusing, so I included it to spark joy in this thread.

Excluding the comment, "Something something Russia?", would my previous comment be considered a straw man argument?

Heck, I even put an edit in there as a peace offering, and that was ignored. Because protectors gotta swell up and be cock diesel, 24/7.

You lost benefit of the doubt in here when you began making stuff up to critique. It indicated you weren't seeking to be reasonable, but just hate for it's own sake, and you've been very quick to offense when that reality is pointed out.

So sarcasm isn't exactly obvious.

 

[baudib1]

I'm not sure what this is in relation to what I said. You're mixing book stuff and show stuff, which I've been yelled at doing before, so I'm not sure if that's allowed, /s.

The Ironborn declared themselves independent, and Dany had even told Yara they could remain as such in Dany's NWO, but in the finale, the Iron Islands remain part of the 6 Kingdoms. Not sure what Stannis has to do with anything, seeing as he's been dead for a good long while.

I'm not really concerned with the book lore, as the show has been repeatedly described as it's own thing. Dorne was never conquered by the Targs either, yet that Kingdom acquiesced and became a willing part of the 7 Kingdoms whom recognized the Iron Throne as the power source and bent the knee. This was before a Dornish princess was married into the Targ family tree. So the fact that the North wasn't rofl-stomped way back when doesn't really apply to much. It wasn't mentioned in the show, not sure why it's pertinent to mention it now.

A consistent question asked throughout the show was, "Are children responsible for their parents actions?" It was left open-ended as a direct & plain reply was not satisfactorily given. However, we are led to believe that Children do not stray far from their parents (apple... falling... tree), as Dany is inherently depicted as her father, and Jon as his supposed father. If that were a truism for this world, (Tyrion is wise/clever as his father was), then Sansa should also be a kneeler, as both Catelyn and Ned respected the authorities of the land, Catelyn even more so than Ned being aware of the game and how to best play it.

But whatever, everything not explicitly said is open to interpretation, and everything said can be construed as desired. Whims and wants.

There's a video where Sophie Turner as Sansa narrates the history of the North and the Starks, and it basically lines with directly with book lore so one would have to assume it's canon.

The North has very recent reasons to not want to be part of the other kingdoms, including Ned Stark's beheading and the Red Wedding. Not to mention that the Northern people are very different from the others; they practice a different religion and have many different customs, and are basically very ethnically distinct -- being descendant from the First Men while the other kingdoms (not Dorne) were largely conquered by the Andals.

The South and the Crown not sending help in the Battle of Winterfell would only exacerbate the hard feelings between North and South.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Edit- Maybe much like Citizen Kane, or It's a Wonderful Life, the GoT ending will be panned today by a number of people, only to be later appreciated on a larger scale by those many years into the future. It took Kane about 15 years to gain traction as the celebrated work it now is, and Wonderful Life languished for approx 30 years before gaining it's footing as a film classic.

Sopranos would be good example of revision with time

Made in America was not seen that highly by many fans and was very controversial

There were even people upset at Phil Leotardo death scene

But since then a lot of people have come around on it as well as final Sopranos seasons which at time were being trashed as downgrade in quality from early seasons

 

[baudib1]

I've seen a lot of people talk about Battlestar Galactica recently as a show that ended badly, which surprised me. I quite liked the ending and final season.

 

[Ruck Over]

You lost benefit of the doubt in here when you began making stuff up to critique. It indicated you weren't seeking to be reasonable, but just hate for it's own sake, and you've been very quick to offense when that reality is pointed out.

So sarcasm isn't exactly obvious.

Hey man, like, that's your opinion.

It's fine if the sarcasm isn't obvious, I squarely do not agree with many of your taeks. Regardless if you believe you are in the right, your opinions are not the defacto basis of all truth.

 

[Ruck Over]

There's a video where Sophie Turner as Sansa narrates the history of the North and the Starks, and it basically lines with directly with book lore so one would have to assume it's canon.

The North has very recent reasons to not want to be part of the other kingdoms, including Ned Stark's beheading and the Red Wedding. Not to mention that the Northern people are very different from the others; they practice a different religion and have many different customs, and are basically very ethnically distinct -- being descendant from the First Men while the other kingdoms (not Dorne) were largely conquered by the Andals.

The South and the Crown not sending help in the Battle of Winterfell would only exacerbate the hard feelings between North and South.

I've taken a stance similar to protective arguments presented here, that if the subject material was not in the show, it should not be relied upon for a strong basis to argue. The video in question was not included in the program airing and thus is not relied upon for common knowledge.

The Vale is South and part of forces that fought for Winterfell. The Crown at this point means Cersei, and it's to no one's surprise that she did not commit armies to the North to preserve against the Long Night. However, Jamie did arrive, so there's that. (Not to mention Dany should have conscripted a few Southerners during the Battle of the Gold Road. And still there were more others she left as charred remains during that battle.)

White Harbor is part of the North, and they practice the religion of the 7 gods. Sansa, a Northerner by birth was a practitioner, influenced by her mother from the Riverlands. While the Old Gods may be a prominent religion in the North, they are not the only religion. Yes, Ned built a Sept specifically for Catelyn, so it's accepted Winterfell wasn't a bastion of religious diversity before Ned and Catelyn.
(Some of this is book stuff, some of it show stuff, parse and exclude as appropriate and necessary.)

 

[Beef Invictus]

Hey man, like, that's your opinion.

It's fine if the sarcasm isn't obvious, I squarely do not agree with many of your taeks. Regardless if you believe you are in the right, your opinions are not the defacto basis of all truth.

I'm the 3 Eyed Gritty.

 

[baudib1]

I've taken a stance similar to protective arguments presented here, that if the subject material was not in the show, it should not be relied upon for a strong basis to argue. The video in question was not included in the program airing and thus is not relied upon for common knowledge.

The Vale is South and part of forces that fought for Winterfell. The Crown at this point means Cersei, and it's to no one's surprise that she did not commit armies to the North to preserve against the Long Night. However, Jamie did arrive, so there's that. (Not to mention Dany should have conscripted a few Southerners during the Battle of the Gold Road. And still there were more others she left as charred remains during that battle.)

White Harbor is part of the North, and they practice the religion of the 7 gods. Sansa, a Northerner by birth was a practitioner, influenced by her mother from the Riverlands. While the Old Gods may be a prominent religion in the North, they are not the only religion. Yes, Ned built a Sept specifically for Catelyn, so it's accepted Winterfell wasn't a bastion of religious diversity before Ned and Catelyn.
(Some of this is book stuff, some of it show stuff, parse and exclude as appropriate and necessary.)

If you're arguing that Sansa and the North should be grateful to a Daenerys/Aegon Targaryen VI dynasty established soon after the Battle of Winterfell I would largely agree with you. However that didn't happen and from what we can tell, probably wouldn't have anyway. Sansa was never bending the knee to Daenerys. If Jon had sat on the IT it might have been a different story.

I don't know what the purpose of arguing over the validity of the video history of the North and Starks presented by HBO is. If you want to argue that Aegon I actually did conquer the North then feel free to believe so. That doesn't really change anything else in my post. The North is essentially unconquerable even if you want to believe in a conquest of the North that doesn't exist in books or show other than a throwaway line by Tyrion in the finale.

 

[Juicy Pop]

I think the biggest loss from the shortened seasons is that we didn't even get to see Dany 'rule' for more than 5 minutes.

Imagine if she was able to hold a court and make the populace outside of KL actually feel the impact of her reign. The southern lords have basically been business as usual despite several world-altering threats all falling within the span of a few months.

 

[deadhead]

Why is that a surprise?
It's not like the Black Death (which killed 30-40% of the European population) ended the Middle Ages.
Even the economic and social changes brought forth by labor shortages faded away in a couple centuries.

It would take first the Industrious Revolution (in the low lands) and then the Industrial Revolution (which really didn't have an impact until the 19th century when steam was applied to transportation and as a prime mover in manufacturing) to create the modern world.

 

[Ruck Over]

If you're arguing that Sansa and the North should be grateful to a Daenerys/Aegon Targaryen VI dynasty established soon after the Battle of Winterfell I would largely agree with you. However that didn't happen and from what we can tell, probably wouldn't have anyway. Sansa was never bending the knee to Daenerys. If Jon had sat on the IT it might have been a different story.

I don't know what the purpose of arguing over the validity of the video history of the North and Starks presented by HBO is. If you want to argue that Aegon I actually did conquer the North then feel free to believe so. That doesn't really change anything else in my post. The North is essentially unconquerable even if you want to believe in a conquest of the North that doesn't exist in books or show other than a throwaway line by Tyrion in the finale.

Well, the basis of most of my comments is that the writing, the narrative approach taken by the show, is bunk.

The first paragraph- yup. If Sansa could hypothetically bend the knee to Jon per your statements, why not Bran? Bran is actually her brother, instead of her cousin/half-brother.

The second paragraph- sure. I don't really care. It's just the facetious manner in which the show protectors like to argue fine points of detail. I never bothered to see this video, and don't disagree with the content. However, the North had bent the knee, whether by diplomacy or sword point. So this new stance of the North doesn't bend is misplaced, a detail of faulty story-telling.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well, the basis of most of my comments is that the writing, the narrative approach taken by the show, is bunk.

The first paragraph- yup. If Sansa could hypothetically bend the knee to Jon per your statements, why not Bran? Bran is actually her brother, instead of her cousin/half-brother.

The second paragraph- sure. I don't really care. It's just the facetious manner in which the show protectors like to argue fine points of detail. I never bothered to see this video, and don't disagree with the content. However, the North had bent the knee, whether by diplomacy or sword point. So this new stance of the North doesn't bend is misplaced, a detail of faulty story-telling.

What a trap.

Critics: They didn't address X details!
Others: Actually they did, let us tell you.
Critics: Stop facetiously arguing details!

 

[Embiid]

Watching random episodes from seasons 1-5....jeesh they kind of put most episodes from the final two seasons to shame...

 

[trostol]

From the book...did they merge Aegeon into Jon?

 

[Beef Invictus]

From the book...did they merge Aegeon into Jon?

I don't think so, I think they just jettisoned that storyline and probably wisely so.

One element that made it in is the Golden Company, and they definitely made the leader of the Golden Company way more badass...but based on their awful leader in the book, I'd expect their book fate to mirror their show fate barring a change in management.

 

[trostol]

another thing..was that Longclaw Jon had back at the end...i thought it was stuck in Dany as Drogon flew away

 

[Flybynite]

Speaking about the books made me look at the copies I had and I recalled I didn't read the first two stories until around 2000 or 2001. There used to be a used bookstore on Morrell Avenue near Holy Family College(well now University). I got the first two books there. So it made me realize we're talking about people who read the books who had theories about the plotline for 20... almost 25 years. People were speculating about Jon's parents being Lyanna Stark & Aegon Targaryen two decades ago and the books STILL HAVE NOT gotten to the point of confirming it. The tv show actually confirmed it.

And what was the payout? Did it even matter at all? The only impact to the show for Jon having been the son of Aegon & Lyanna was Bran the Broken needs to find a new Master of Spies because Varys was killed by Dany because of it. That's it. That's the impact to a theory that spanned decades.

 

[Flybynite]

another thing..was that Longclaw Jon had back at the end...i thought it was stuck in Dany as Drogon flew away

He stabbed her with a dagger. Never drew his sword.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

another thing..was that Longclaw Jon had back at the end...i thought it was stuck in Dany as Drogon flew away

Pretty sure he used a dagger

He didn't draw his sword while making out with Danny and then flip it upward which would have been impossible to hide from her

 

[trostol]

ok..i was looking at it wrong..looked like the wolfs head hilt was sticking out of her lol

 

[Lindberg]

Jon could have prevented all of this if he decided to just pork his hot aunt for the sake of the realm.

 

[Rebels57]

Speaking about the books made me look at the copies I had and I recalled I didn't read the first two stories until around 2000 or 2001. There used to be a used bookstore on Morrell Avenue near Holy Family College(well now University). I got the first two books there. So it made me realize we're talking about people who read the books who had theories about the plotline for 20... almost 25 years. People were speculating about Jon's parents being Lyanna Stark & Aegon Targaryen two decades ago and the books STILL HAVE NOT gotten to the point of confirming it. The tv show actually confirmed it.

And what was the payout? Did it even matter at all? The only impact to the show for Jon having been the son of Aegon & Lyanna was Bran the Broken needs to find a new Master of Spies because Varys was killed by Dany because of it. That's it. That's the impact to a theory that spanned decades.

Not sure how this went over your head, but Jon being Targaryen is what drove he and Dany apart which ultimately led to her snapping, killing innocents, and then getting killed by Jon...so i'd say it was pretty important plot wise.

As in everything in Season 8, it wasn't WHERE WE ENDED UP, it was HOW WE GOT THERE.

 

[Flyotes]

Seems like a poor argument. Season 8 was also part of "how we got there." There wasn't a lot of meat on the bone. It felt rushed, which can backfire for a drama, lessening impact, etc.

They also had an opportunity to do something radical or different with the ending, but instead went with standard political and romantic tropes. Lover #1 kills lover #2 for ideal, etc. Boring.

 

[Oskar Man]

Watching random episodes from seasons 1-5....jeesh they kind of put most episodes from the final two seasons to shame...

I'm already into season 3 of a re-watch binge and it's night and day