OT: All Things Game of Thrones III (The End!?)

[Oskar Man]

Not sure how this went over your head, but Jon being Targaryen is what drove he and Dany apart which ultimately led to her snapping, killing innocents, and then getting killed by Jon...so i'd say it was pretty important plot wise.

As in everything in Season 8, it wasn't WHERE WE ENDED UP, it was HOW WE GOT THERE.

 

[Flyotes]

Someone asked why Bran didn't just tell Arya what is in the west, which I found funny.

 

[Rebels57]

So i was curious as to why Drogon's fire didn't kill the Night Knight so I was doing some research. Here is the "explanation" from D&D.

Weiss explained: "We thought it was important that whatever the plan was it doesn't just work because that would be dull.

"There's no reason to know for certain that the fire wouldn't kill or destroy the Night King, but there's also no particular reason to believe that it would."

Basically, they literally had no explanation. These 2 really are dullards lol

 

[Lord Defect]

Wow. That’s sad. One of the white walkers puts out fire as it walked on it in an earlier season. The WW and NK had resistance to fire if not immunity, the wights did not.
This is your show, you make the rules.

 

[deadhead]

Except Bran knew, or there was no reason to set a trap with him as bait.
Just burn the mother.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Seems like a poor argument. Season 8 was also part of "how we got there." There wasn't a lot of meat on the bone. It felt rushed, which can backfire for a drama, lessening impact, etc.

They also had an opportunity to do something radical or different with the ending, but instead went with standard political and romantic tropes. Lover #1 kills lover #2 for ideal, etc. Boring.

Isn't the end essentially what GRM wanted?

Dany was always going to burn KL and die , Etc , Etc , Etc

What did you want? Dany to burn Jon and Ayra and fly off to destroy Winterfell? People would be even more pissed if that is how it ends

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wow. That’s sad. One of the white walkers puts out fire as it walked on it in an earlier season. The WW and NK had resistance to fire if not immunity, the wights did not.
This is your show, you make the rules.

Dragonfire is described as distinct from normal fire, but I do wonder if DD realize that.


Much as I'm confident that they don't understand the themes GRRM likely has in mind with the ending as he described it to them.

 

[Flyotes]

Isn't the end essentially what GRM wanted?

Dany was always going to burn KL and die , Etc , Etc , Etc

What did you want? Dany to burn Jon and Ayra and fly off to destroy Winterfell? People would be even more pissed if that is how it ends

I don't know what I wanted, specifically, but it could have ended differently. Not sure why you'd choose that ending about Winterfell. Maybe none of those things happens. Ayra could have eliminated Cersei after Cleganebowl wearing a Tyrion mask, Dany could have ruled justly, Jon could have went north with the wildlings, to visit Dany regularly on a dragon where ever she is (if they didn't lamely spear that one), in order to swear off his birthright. Or, Dany could have left Tyrion on the Iron Thorne to hold the throne for her, deciding she truly belongs in a fight against the slave-cities, to liberate the East (she didn't seem to love the West), and follow her ideals as a breaker of chains (which seemed vital to her soul). White walkers could have won, instead.

This is just spitballing off the top of my head.

Instead, I feel like we got the standard depiction.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don't know what I wanted, specifically, but it could have ended differently. Not sure why you'd choose that ending about Winterfell. Maybe none of those things happens. Ayra could have eliminated Cersei after Cleganebowl wearing a Tyrion mask, Dany could have ruled justly, Jon could have went north with the wildlings, to visit Dany regularly on a dragon where ever she is (if they didn't lamely spear that one), in order to swear off his birthright. Or, Dany could have left Tyrion on the Iron Thorne to hold the throne for her, deciding she truly belongs in a fight against the slave-cities, to liberate the East (she didn't seem to love the West), and follow her ideals as a breaker of chains (which seemed vital to her soul). White walkers could have won, instead.

This is just spitballing off the top of my head.

Instead, I feel like we got the standard depiction.

I'm not sure what makes any of those endings less of a "standard depiction" than what we got, though.

 

[Flyotes]

I'm not sure what makes any of those endings less of a "standard depiction" than what we got, though.

I'm trying to dance around the chance that several intellectuals have pointed out-- that Dany had a chance to be a progressive, female, non-crazy, hero leader. Instead, we got a very standard man saves the day ideology.

 

[deadhead]

I'm trying to dance around the chance that several intellectuals have pointed out-- that Dany had a chance to be a progressive, female, non-crazy, hero leader. Instead, we got a very standard man saves the day ideology.

Uh, that's so politically correct I want to vomit.
Do you think Sheryl Sandberg is more moral and non-crazy than Zuckerberg?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I'm trying to dance around the chance that several intellectuals have pointed out-- that Dany had a chance to be a progressive, female, non-crazy, hero leader. Instead, we got a very standard man saves the day ideology.

I don't think the day was very saved at all.

 

[mja]

I don't know what I wanted, specifically, but it could have ended differently. Not sure why you'd choose that ending about Winterfell. Maybe none of those things happens. Ayra could have eliminated Cersei after Cleganebowl wearing a Tyrion mask, Dany could have ruled justly, Jon could have went north with the wildlings, to visit Dany regularly on a dragon where ever she is (if they didn't lamely spear that one), in order to swear off his birthright. Or, Dany could have left Tyrion on the Iron Thorne to hold the throne for her, deciding she truly belongs in a fight against the slave-cities, to liberate the East (she didn't seem to love the West), and follow her ideals as a breaker of chains (which seemed vital to her soul). White walkers could have won, instead.

This is just spitballing off the top of my head.

Instead, I feel like we got the standard depiction.

No offense, but those are all awful. I can't think of anything I'd want to see less than Arya killing Cersei with Tyrion's face. That wouldn't be an "Oh, shit!" moment, that would be a "Oh, for the love of god!" moment. Dany was never a great ruler. She only ever succeeded as a conqueror, in large part because she was ruthless. She's always been a hypocrite on the slavery issue, given her political aspirations. Indeed, "breaker of chains" is part of the savior complex that is her tragic flaw. I'm not even going to address the nihilism of a potential White Walker victory.

I'm trying to dance around the chance that several intellectuals have pointed out-- that Dany had a chance to be a progressive, female, non-crazy, hero leader. Instead, we got a very standard man saves the day ideology.

No, we didn't. Dany isn't crazy. She's not a villain, per se. She's a tragic hero in the greek / Shakespearean tradition. I'm trying and struggling to find another example (there has to be others, I'm just blanking on any at the moment) of a female warrior character in the same vein.

Progress isn't just female characters being the heroes, it's also female characters being the tragic heroes. Reading her merely as a cliched villain when she's been one of the story's two primary protagonists is facile.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No offense, but those are all awful. I can't think of anything I'd want to see less than Arya killing Cersei with Tyrion's face. That wouldn't be an "Oh, ****!" moment, that would be a "Oh, for the love of god!" moment. Dany was never a great ruler. She only ever succeeded as a conqueror, in large part because she was ruthless. She's always been a hypocrite on the slavery issue, given her political aspirations. Indeed, "breaker of chains" is part of the savior complex that is her tragic flaw. I'm not even going to address the nihilism of a potential White Walker victory.



No, we didn't. Dany isn't crazy. She's not a villain, per se. She's a tragic hero in the greek / Shakespearean tradition. I'm trying and struggling to find another example (there has to be others, I'm just blanking on any at the moment) of a female warrior character in the same vein.

Progress isn't just female characters being the heroes, it's also female characters being the tragic heroes. Reading her merely as a cliched villain when she's been one of the story's two primary protagonists is facile.

Boudica? Rode a wave of conquest based on revenge for crimes against her family and it destroyed her.

 

[mja]

Boudica? Rode a wave of conquest based on revenge for crimes against her family and it destroyed her.

Yes, but she's a historical personage (and perhaps the inspiration behind Dany?), and I'm trying to find an example in literature.

 

[GKJ]

I think the biggest loss from the shortened seasons is that we didn't even get to see Dany 'rule' for more than 5 minutes.

Imagine if she was able to hold a court and make the populace outside of KL actually feel the impact of her reign. The southern lords have basically been business as usual despite several world-altering threats all falling within the span of a few months.

I felt like the thing they were going for was that she had reached her destiny having achieved the throne, even if it was for 30 seconds. But that was it, that was her arc.

I think one thing that the writing couldn't get past, say, consider how many different storylines they had going on through the first, what, 5-6 seasons of the show, and the way they presented those episodes, and they get to season 8 and everyone is coming together, so those lanes are converging, and there's less space between all the characters, and that's just not how the series was written prior to that.

 

[mja]

I felt like the thing they were going for was that she had reached her destiny having achieved the throne, even if it was for 30 seconds. But that was it, that was her arc.

I think one thing that the writing couldn't get past, say, consider how many different storylines they had going on through the first, what, 5-6 seasons of the show, and the way they presented those episodes, and they get to season 8 and everyone is coming together, so those lanes are converging, and there's less space between all the characters, and that's just not how the series was written prior to that.

This was most definitely an issue that they struggled with. Brienne's knighting is a highlight of the season for the way the writing deftly brought together 6 characters in an extended sequence of dialogue that didn't just work but truly sang, but it's the exception that proves the rule.

I also think they were just plain exhausted and started to take cinematic short cuts with the plotting to get the thing done before Kit Harrington started to lose his hair or Sophie Turner & Maisie Williams started having children. Some of those shortcuts worked in my opinion - the doomed Dothraki charge, no matter how strategically dubious, was thematically and visually beautiful, while others weren't as successful - i.e. Euron's ambush.

The story definitely would have been better served with more episodes for the story to breath in the last 2 seasons. Jamie should have been captured back in season 7 after the Field of Fire, and that should have led to the events which included capturing a wight to appease Cersei / the loss of Viserion, but that adds at least a whole episode, if not two. 8.04 should have been two separate episodes with a lot more build up to what is nearly a perfect episode for me, 8.05 (the blemish being the Euron / Jamie battle, which was just a vain attempt to make Euron a meaningful character, dude should have been ignominiously roasted or eaten by Drogon for taking out his brother). 8.06 should also have been two separate episodes. Dany being carried away by Drogon should have been the final image of the penultimate episode, and that way we'd more time to better build to that moment, exploring Jon's dilemma so that the outcome was more in doubt. The Tyrion / Jon conversation probably should have happened before Tyrion arrest, not after. Maybe the reason the Unsullied don't execute Jon on the spot is that Dany's final words or gesture are a command to leave him unharmed, or Drogon mysteriously intervenes to protect him before taking flight. The time jump also wouldn't have been so jarring. Jon's punishment should have been a mission to rebuild the watch, as completely absurd and unnecessary as that mission clearly is, and his abandonment of that mission both completely unambiguous but his and everyone else's motivations completely ambiguous. Grey Worm should haven't said they were sailing to Naath. They just should have showed him landing on an island filled with emotion. Bran needed another hour of screen time quite frankly, but mostly likely back in season 5 or whenever it was he disappeared because the writers couldn't figure out a way to make living in a tree watchable TV. All of this is well and good, but it likely means that they'd only just be filming season 8 right now, and while that's not a huge consideration for us, the viewers, it is a huge consideration for everyone involved in making the show.

Getting off topic with this next bit, but something I haven't seen commented on at all is Dany's blindness towards Jon. We hear from both Arya & Tyrion that he's a threat to her and that she knows it, but Dany doesn't see him as such at all. Instead, she implicitly trusts him and loves him. It's a small measure of redemption for her character. She wasn't just ruthlessly focused on power, but instead truly wanted to change the world and wanted the man she loved to help her change it. She just didn't see that she had turned into a monster.

And now I'll be stunned if anyone actually bothers to read all of that, lol.

 

[deadhead]

I think Dany knew Jon wouldn't betray her personally, what she didn't understand was that he wouldn't betray the people of Westeros - he could never really leave the Night's Watch.

Jon didn't kill Dany to gain the throne, which would have been dishonorable, but rather, to prevent her from using Drogon to trample all of Westeros under her foot.

 

[mja]

I think Dany knew Jon wouldn't betray her personally, what she didn't understand was that he wouldn't betray the people of Westeros - he could never really leave the Night's Watch.

Jon didn't kill Dany to gain the throne, which would have been dishonorable, but rather, to prevent her from using Drogon to trample all of Westeros under her foot.

I knew if anyone would read that, that it would have to be you, deady. And sure, the question isn't whether Jon would betray her, but whether or not she'd view him as a threat, i.e. whether his very existence would jeopardize her reign / life. She articulated just that fear an episode ago. If she were irredeemable, she would have terminated the threat. She doesn't. Far from it, she's already making plans of conquering the world together.

 

[Deadpool8812]

very underwhelming finale

rush job

 

[Flyotes]

I don't think the day was very saved at all.

I disagree. Her designs on the rest of all opposition, to potentially lay waste to any civilization that wouldn't agree with her, was saving, maybe not the literal day, but the future, from excessive violence. This is, of course, resolved by the standard trope -- and moments away from assuming the seat of power in the region, making her formally "top boss." The ideology is present.

No offense, but those are all awful. I can't think of anything I'd want to see less than Arya killing Cersei with Tyrion's face. Dany was never a great ruler. She only ever succeeded as a conqueror, in large part because she was ruthless. I'm not even going to address the nihilism of a potential White Walker victory.

I hear you. I'm just offering alternatives. The Tyrion's face idea corresponds to the prophecy in the book, delivered by Maggie the Frog, which is part of the reason Cersei is terrified of the imp. She can't imagine Jaime hurting her. We never really got to see Dany rule for an extended period of time. The suggestion from those around her is that they admire her and believe she would be good. I just have to take that on good faith. The White Walkers winning seems like a thing Martin could do, although now, not so much. These little pet theories floated around ASOIAF a long time and had support.

No, we didn't. Dany isn't crazy. She's not a villain, per se. She's a tragic hero in the greek / Shakespearean tradition.

Progress isn't just female characters being the heroes, it's also female characters being the tragic heroes. Reading her merely as a cliched villain when she's been one of the story's two primary protagonists is facile.

Dany is a lot of things, but I thought the Mad Queen situation was pretty obvious. Not necessarily "crazy crazy" but mad in the sense she's willing to radically exert her will to protect her ideals, her family, and justice against those who wronged her. Written as someone willing to burn a city has to be a little batty, right? I'm less concerned about her tragic sense and more concerned about how the writers chose to give Jon a justification for killing her (a woman seeking the highest station, an agenda of freeing slaves, an army full of diversity, cured by best man, pound for pound, in Westeros). If anything, making her Greek or Shakespearean would be shoving a Western agenda on her in order to eliminate her character from winning.

Keep in mind, they made her the antagonist in the end. Could have been more interesting to have her come out of a litany of major wars cleanly.

Uh, that's so politically correct I want to vomit.

Not trying to start a politics debate here, but I'd argue the opposite is true. You're probably being more politically correct by defending the standard Western ideology. That's the norm. I'm being politically incorrect by asking for more out of the character than themes I've seen beaten to death before. I think fans sense it-- it just wasn't an interesting ending. Not enough meat, rushed, and not interesting.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I disagree. Her designs on the rest of all opposition, to potentially lay waste to any civilization that wouldn't agree with her, was saving, maybe not the literal day, but the future, from excessive violence. This is, of course, resolved by the standard trope -- and moments away from assuming the seat of power in the region, making her formally "top boss." The ideology is present.



I hear you. I'm just offering alternatives. The Tyrion's face idea corresponds to the prophecy in the book, delivered by Maggie the Frog, which is part of the reason Cersei is terrified of the imp. She can't imagine Jaime hurting her. We never really got to see Dany rule for an extended period of time. The suggestion from those around her is that they admire her and believe she would be good. I just have to take that on good faith. The White Walkers winning seems like a thing Martin could do, although now, not so much. These little pet theories floated around ASOIAF a long time and had support.



Dany is a lot of things, but I thought the Mad Queen situation was pretty obvious. Not necessarily "crazy crazy" but mad in the sense she's willing to radically exert her will to protect her ideals, her family, and justice against those who wronged her. Written as someone willing to burn a city has to be a little batty, right? I'm less concerned about her tragic sense and more concerned about how the writers chose to give Jon a justification for killing her (a woman seeking the highest station, an agenda of freeing slaves, an army full of diversity, cured by best man, pound for pound, in Westeros). If anything, making her Greek or Shakespearean would be shoving a Western agenda on her in order to eliminate her character from winning.

Keep in mind, they made her the antagonist in the end. Could have been more interesting to have her come out of a litany of major wars cleanly.

I struggle to buy into this anti-woman "man saves the day" agenda thing when Sansa is made queen, and she was the one who always led the charge against Dany to boot.

 

[Flyotes]

I struggle to buy into this anti-woman "man saves the day" agenda thing when Sansa is made queen, and she was the one who always led the charge against Dany to boot.

Sansa is a bright spot, but Western culture isn't against having strong women near the action. That's more liberal and standard. It would have been something if she won the Iron Throne out right.

She also played her part against Dany (a liberating force), wants her brother to maintain the old order, but then retreats to the north, a largely disconnected area no one wants, isn't fully involved in the true seat of power any longer, the one that has a major influence over the majority of lives, money, influence.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sansa is a bright spot, but Western culture isn't against having strong women near the action. That's more liberal and standard. It would have been something if she won the Iron Throne out right.

She also played her part against Dany (a liberating force), wants her brother to maintain the old order, but then retreats to the north, a largely disconnected area no one wants, isn't fully involved in the true seat of power any longer, the one that has a major influence over the majority of lives, money, influence.

Why are you diminishing her accomplishments?

Never mind that the series is full of people seeking control of the North.

 

[Rebels57]

I struggle to buy into this anti-woman "man saves the day" agenda thing when Sansa is made queen, and she was the one who always led the charge against Dany to boot.

Also, Arya did some things. Brienne too.