OT: All Things Game of Thrones III (The End!?)

[Flyotes]

Why are you diminishing her accomplishments?

Never mind that the series is full of people seeking control of the North.

Am I? I thought I was being fair. Being Queen in the North is essentially being the handsomest Denny's waiter.

As I understand it, controlling the north is basically herding cats. It needs to be controlled, otherwise it diminishes the stature of the Iron Throne, but for political purposes, it is largely left alone, which is how it has operated and why no one on the new council really cares when Sansa defies them on it. Another group, King or Queen, less familiar with Sansa, would probably not allow it unless they were politically weak, or unwilling to go to war in the short term.

Also, Arya did some things. Brienne too.

Really nothing taken seriously in a standard Western ideology says women can't "do some things." But they don't usually end up as the most powerful political person. Usually.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Am I? I thought I was being fair. Being Queen in the North is essentially being the handsomest Denny's waiter.

As I understand it, controlling the north is basically herding cats. It needs to be controlled, otherwise it diminishes the stature of the Iron Throne, but for political purposes, it is largely left alone, which is how it has operated and why no one on the new council really cares when Sansa defies them on it. Another group, King or Queen, less familiar with Sansa, would probably not allow it unless they were politically weak, or unwilling to go to war in the short term.



Really nothing taken seriously in a standard Western ideology says women can't "do some things." But they don't usually end up as the most powerful political person. Usually.

What? No. The North is a major realm, and one that was never conquered by the others.

You're greatly selling the North short here. Remember, it was the strength of the North that built Robert's reign. What was Robert's line? "You put me on the throne?"

Cersei criticized Ned for not taking the throne himself when he had the chance. And his response isn't "I couldn't have" it's about how it wouldn't have been right. Cersei certainly thought Ned could have been overall King. That's not indicative of a lesser realm.

Your description is more in line with the Frey's standing.

 

[deadhead]

Really nothing taken seriously in a standard Western ideology says women can't "do some things." But they don't usually end up as the most powerful political person. Usually.

Hmm, tell that to Elizabeth I or Catherine the Great.

 

[Flyotes]

What? No. The North is a major realm, and one that was never conquered by the others.
You're greatly selling the North short here. Remember, it was the strength of the North that built Robert's reign. What was Robert's line? "You put me on the throne?"

It wasn't just the North, it was also the support of the Vale (after some infighting in both there and the Stormlands IIRC). Combined, they have one of the largest armies on the continent.

It's a major realm, no doubt, but not 1st place--maybe not even 4th place due to the culture/climate. Let me make my Denny's joke. But it's still a largely feudalistic society in the wintry north, with many disparate clans, takes a long time to raise the armies, and is largely left alone as the Northmen are isolated and want to stay out of Southern politics. They take exception to attempts at being ruled, beyond the exception the proves the rule, the Starks, and are happy to declare their own King at the drop of a hat. KL wants the North to bend the knee and then let them be. I doubt a Southron would feel at all comfortable there. Many of the characters express dislike of the area, have never seen the wall, and so forth. I'm not sure letting Sansa run the north is that big a deal to a depleted country that will have to get back on its feet, via the new leaders (they selected Bran for heavenssake over Sansa-- that should be infuriating to everyone). Sansa winning would have been nice.

Hmm, tell that to Elizabeth I or Catherine the Great.

I said 'usually.' I'd appreciate it if you responded in good faith.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It wasn't just the North, it was also the support of the Vale (after some infighting in both there and the Stormlands IIRC). Combined, they have one of the largest armies on the continent.

It's a major realm, no doubt, but not 1st place--maybe not even 4th place due to the culture/climate. Let me make my Denny's joke. But it's still a largely feudalistic society in the wintry north, with many disparate clans, takes a long time to raise the armies, and is largely left alone as the Northmen are isolated and want to stay out of Southern politics. They take exception to attempts at being ruled, beyond the exception the proves the rule, the Starks, and are happy to declare their own King at the drop of a hat. KL wants the North to bend the knee and then let them be. I doubt a Southron would feel at all comfortable there. Many of the characters express dislike of the area, have never seen the wall, and so forth. I'm not sure letting Sansa run the north is that big a deal to a depleted country that will have to get back on its feet, via the new leaders (they selected Bran for heavenssake over Sansa-- that should be infuriating to everyone). Sansa winning would have been nice.

Sansa did win. It doesn't take terribly long for the North to raise armies, they got moving pretty fast. The North's forces are also more significant than the Vale's, normally; the Vale's forces took on more significance because everyone else had been depleted.

The nobility selected the most neutral king they could. He's aloof, and the council was doing the real ruling. That's happened often in real history, following strict and active rulers where the nobility has the means to select. Sansa is more of the old model of absolute monarch they'd been putting up with than Bran.

 

[Flyotes]

Sansa did win. It doesn't take terribly long for the North to raise armies, they got moving pretty fast. The North's forces are also more significant than the Vale's, normally; the Vale's forces took on more significance because everyone else had been depleted.

The nobility selected the most neutral king they could. He's aloof, and the council was doing the real ruling. That's happened often in real history, following strict and active rulers where the nobility has the means to select. Sansa is more of the old model of absolute monarch they'd been putting up with than Bran.

IIRC, the North and the Vale have about the same military power. They're also equal to Dorne.

"According to a semi-canon sources from 2005, the Vale can raise perhaps as many as forty-five thousand men.[11] Their strength is comparable to the North and Dorne, according to George R. R. Martin." The ASOIAF wiki.

From that same Wiki, the North takes awhile to gather their men.

I wouldn't call that winning, not in the grand scheme of things. I'll agree with you if you mean that she got what she wanted. If the onus was getting the throne, then I'd disagree and it isn't as interesting as if she did win and then took the job for the same Washington-esque reason "i don't want it, ergo, i'm perfect for it." Keep in mind, Bran is also a monarch.

The naive princess who becomes tortured into a strong, survivor, absolute ruler queen is more interesting. Bran's kind of dull. He's basically the creepy guy on the bus.

 

[Embiid]

Bran's kind of dull. He's basically the creepy guy on the bus.

 

[Flyotes]

Can we consider Bran, for a minute? What is with that line about: "Why do you think I came all the way here for?" There are green seer powers, historical powers (wouldn't help that much, except maybe in a predictive sense, still seems like a reach)-- but did he know the city would be destroyed and told no one? Or was that just lazy writing?

 

[deadhead]

I said 'usually.' I'd appreciate it if you responded in good faith.

Catherine the Great is right up there with Peter the Great in terms of creating modern Russia.
Elizabeth I is up there with her father in terms of creating modern Britain.

They're not just "exceptions," they're at the top of the standings.

Queens were limited until the birth of the modern state simply because most Kings had to be decent warriors, it's not like Genghis Kahn got there by giving orders from his tent. So it was less sexism that the reality that when war is fought through "manual" combat, it's going to be decided by brawny men and they get to rule. Woman tend to rise in more organized societies where warfare becomes professionalized (Western Europe, China, the Ottoman Empire) and power is more in the ability to play court politics. There were some Empresses and Queens who were the power behind the throne with a husband or son as figurehead.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Can we talk about Davos suggesting the Unsullied take The Reach and start their own families there?

How does THAT make it into the show?

 

[deadhead]

Can we consider Bran, for a minute? What is with that line about: "Why do you think I came all the way here for?" There are green seer powers, historical powers (wouldn't help that much, except maybe in a predictive sense, still seems like a reach)-- but did he know the city would be destroyed and told no one? Or was that just lazy writing?

And if he told someone, what would they do?
Simply put Dany on her guard and maybe ensure she rules indefinitely, and is even more cruel and capricious.
If Bran sees the pattern of history (shades of Foundation and Dune), it may well be allowing the city to burn is the best path, because if it's unavoidable, then the key is to ensure it's not repeated.

 

[baudib1]

I thought Sansa was going to win, and she would have been the best choice, but her being queen of an independent North is true to her character arc.

I think the best people to rule the seven kingdoms would have been Margaery and Renly, the show really did a disservice to Renly's character IMO.

But Sansa, Renly and Margaery are the best candidates to fit into the existing power structure, and clearly we were going to get something different. Bran doesn't exactly break the wheel, he changes the wheel though. It'd be like if Samwise Gamgee becomes Gandalf and is crowned king because Aragorn decided he wanted to just go be a ranger in the wilderness.

 

[mja]

I mean, I've just always read Dany's character completely differently than @Flyotes apparently has. He seems to legitimately see her as a pure "liberator". That's always been suspect to me. She's always been focused on her divine birthright. Breaking chains is secondary to that, and not consistent with her benevolent dictator political philosophy. We do get to see her rule throughout the series and she makes a mess of things pretty much at every step of the way when it comes to actual governance. She only excels as a conqueror, and that's in large part because she's magically impervious to fire / has a monopoly on weapons of mass destruction and she's quite ruthless in exploiting all of that to her advantage to smite her enemies and inspire devotion in her subjects.

And her fall from grace has been planned since the inception of the story, it's not something the show writers came up with.

There are more interesting well-drawn powerful female characters in this series than in any other in memory. Dany successfully conquered city after city and freed thousands of slaves before her downfall. Sansa fulfills her destiny to be the true queen standing at the end of the series, ironically devoted to the place she desperately wanted to move away from as a child. Arya literally faces off against death and learns to not be self-destructively consumed by vengeance. Brienne has become a leading knight and is the most purely noble character in the entire series. It's Lady Olenna that takes out the sociopathic Joffrey and the most talented politician is arguably Margaery Tyrell. Cersei is a compelling three-dimensional villain driven to increasingly violent actions to protect herself and her family. All the evil that Cersei does is about protecting herself and her family or getting vengeance on those that have harmed her or her family, none of it is purely power for power's sake. Catelyn is far more of a player than her husband, and is the central character in the most mind-blowing moment in the entire series. Somehow seeing this series as an affirmation of the patriarchy takes quite a bit of work.

 

[Beef Invictus]

IIRC, the North and the Vale have about the same military power. They're also equal to Dorne.

"According to a semi-canon sources from 2005, the Vale can raise perhaps as many as forty-five thousand men.[11] Their strength is comparable to the North and Dorne, according to George R. R. Martin." The ASOIAF wiki.

From that same Wiki, the North takes awhile to gather their men.

I wouldn't call that winning, not in the grand scheme of things. I'll agree with you if you mean that she got what she wanted. If the onus was getting the throne, then I'd disagree and it isn't as interesting as if she did win and then took the job for the same Washington-esque reason "i don't want it, ergo, i'm perfect for it." Keep in mind, Bran is also a monarch.

The naive princess who becomes tortured into a strong, survivor, absolute ruler queen is more interesting. Bran's kind of dull. He's basically the creepy guy on the bus.

If you don't call that winning then you're just deadset on pushing a narrative.

 

[gertbfrobe16]

one of the reasons the show was enjoyable is, it wasn't preachy or overtly pushing social issues. the people were what they were and no big deal was made of it. too many shows are about making social statements and the story is crap to get a message across. too much agenda, not enough entertainment.

 

[Rebels57]

Can we talk about Davos suggesting the Unsullied take The Reach and start their own families there?

How does THAT make it into the show?

Good point. How exactly are they supposed to "start their own families?"

 

[Ruck Over]

I'm kinda surprised this discussion is still ongoing.

Here's a video I've been anticipating even more than the show finale.

 

[baudib1]

It's complicated.

GRRM created a lot of powerful and terrific female characters in a patriarchal society. It's a world where the roles and accomplishments of women are decidedly downplayed, overlooked or ignored throughout history. For instance, it's quite clear that many, many women were central figures in the Targaryen conquest and 300-year dynasty, but we learn in the show that they've very much been relegated to the dustbins of history -- see Arya's conversation with Tywin at Harrenhal where she reminds him that Aegon's sister-wives had as much to do with the conquest of Westeros as he did.

D&D took this world and these characters and did 14-year-old misogynistic shit to them.

 

[baudib1]

Good point. How exactly are they supposed to "start their own families?"

Pretending that the Hightowers don't exist is really idiotic.

 

[Rebels57]

Pretending that the Hightowers don't exist is really idiotic.

I'm not sure what this means.

 

[Rebels57]

It's complicated.

GRRM created a lot of powerful and terrific female characters in a patriarchal society. It's a world where the roles and accomplishments of women are decidedly downplayed, overlooked or ignored throughout history. For instance, it's quite clear that many, many women were central figures in the Targaryen conquest and 300-year dynasty, but we learn in the show that they've very much been relegated to the dustbins of history -- see Arya's conversation with Tywin at Harrenhal where she reminds him that Aegon's sister-wives had as much to do with the conquest of Westeros as he did.

D&D took this world and these characters and did 14-year-old misogynistic **** to them.

Brienne weeping over Jamie still pisses me off.

 

[Ruck Over]

Brienne weeping over Jamie still pisses me off.

Being scorned by one's first lover can be an emotionally tough situation. /s

It was, and continues to be, crap.

 

[baudib1]

I think turning Jaime into a f***boi is worse.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Good point. How exactly are they supposed to "start their own families?"

I viewed it as temp measure to get them out of KL

And though the unsullied cant start of families the Dothraki could certainly do that and would be future of whatever house Greyworm started with Unsullied survivors simply his primary army

Also if he left and established his own house he could in theory bring more Dothraki and people of Essos to his lands

Greyworm like Bran would be a one off ruler but unlike Bran Greyworm would have means to establish a successor of choice from Dothraki or whoever is brought from Essos

Lets not forget Dany unable to conceive an heir was not an issue for her taking throne

Davos simply wanted war to end and was prepared to give Greyworm/Unsullied/Dothraki lands to get it done

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Also it wouldn't be unprecedented in human history

Pompey after defeating pirates resettled large #'s of captured pirates or pirates who willingly surrendered in Soli , Dyme and Cilicia believing that they would accept to abandon pirating against Roman Empire while changing ways after being given lands and in some cases local leadership of those lands instead of being put to death as well most would have done in those times

So really what Davos wanted to do was something similar by ending bloodshed and offering Unsullied and Dothraki good lands and Greyworm a lordship to accomplish it