OT: All Things Game of Thrones II (The thread is dark and full of spoilers)

[Flybynite]

There were 560 babies named Khaleesi last year in 2018. Khaleesi, the name for queen in the fictional Dothraki language, is even more popular than the dragon-riding character's actual name of Daenerys, which was given to 163 baby girls in 2018.

Sorry we named you after a mass murderer who committed extreme acts of violence which we would consider war crimes.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Plot twist: Syrio Forel was never confirmed dead. Syrio for king.

Wait a second, I missed the biggest one of all in my list,

Alive Ned.

 

[Lord Defect]

Not without the rationale as to why, no. If they had taken the first few seasons as 'stall time' to allow GRRM to finish the next book so they could continue along, and GRRM didnt deliver, absolutely not.

If they said no (and yes, I know they said 73 hours is what they foresaw) to additional time because they were being primadonnas and they thought they could tell the story better? Sure.

I feel like its somewhere in between. It's a TV show that got really big, really fast, so they needed to pander to the non book readers by doing things that will upset people like you and I, and I accepted that. I'm also extremely high on GRRMs writing, and feel as though trying to draw out a story that woulsve tried to mimic his storytelling would have failed miserably. The show is 1000% more tolerable when you just break it into a pre and post book series and judge them accordingly as opposed to pretending that the post-book storyline was ever going to live up to the book stories.

I don’t really compare this to the book on the whole. I moreso compared the first 5 seasons to the last 3. Wether I read or watch something, in the grand scheme of things I only want to be entertained and not have to overthink on character motivations. We’re getting scenes that on the whole are pointless, and take up valuable time that could have been used to flesh out the how or the whys.
Knowing (ok possibly knowing) that they turned down a chance to allow these things to happen, and knowing that they have a nice deal with Star Wars feels like a slap in the face.
Following the show for 7 seasons so far, I feel obligated to finish the show due to the amount of time I spent watching it. I need to know how the story ends. I wouldn’t walk out of a movie if the last 15 minutes of the movie is terrible, but I will if the first 30 minutes are.
The first 5 seasons were fantastic, so I’m not walking out.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I don’t know how anyone can view the outcomes of the 3ER and Lord of Light mysticism as anything but disappointing in show form. Enormous aspects of the show that didn’t have any clever reveals or conclusions. They just turned out to be fantastical mechanisms to tie up other plot lines. I’m hoping for something a lot more satisfying related to each in the books.

I don't think anyone disagrees.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Looking at odds of who will sit on the Iron Throne how the **** is Bran the top?

Eff that.

Someone is gonna need to dig the thing up first.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Someone is gonna need to dig the thing up first.

Similar to the amount of Dothraki and Unsullied that are still alive, the Throne room will just magically be clear sans roof.

 

[mja]

The only egregious waste of time this season to me has been the golden company.

I actually loved the Golden Company as a literal joke. In terms of total screen time, they didn't get but a minute or two in mention or action combined over two seasons, but instead were a comic illustration of just how futile Cersei's efforts ultimately were always destined to be.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I expect Gendry to sit on the Throne.

She legitimized Gendry and now it’s official since she’s Queen.
Jon kills Dany.
He declines Iron Throne to be a lumberjack in Oregon.
Gendry is King.

That’s where I’d put my money outside of the obvious of Jon.

 

[bauer]

I don’t know how anyone can view the outcomes of the 3ER and Lord of Light mysticism as anything but disappointing in show form. Enormous aspects of the show that didn’t have any clever reveals or conclusions. They just turned out to be fantastical mechanisms to tie up other plot lines. I’m hoping for something a lot more satisfying related to each in the books.

most of the shows character outcomes has turned out really disappointing. even the actors are now starting to speak out against the terrible way it has ended. Conleth Hill (Varys) just came out and said he thought the character development got much worse after season 6. Kit Harrington also called the ending disappointing. this is a disaster.

i haven't heard spoilers for the final episode, but i know people that have and they say it actually gets much worse. what a mess.

 

[Starat327]

I don’t really compare this to the book on the whole. I moreso compared the first 5 seasons to the last 3. Wether I read or watch something, in the grand scheme of things I only want to be entertained and not have to overthink on character motivations. We’re getting scenes that on the whole are pointless, and take up valuable time that could have been used to flesh out the how or the whys.
Knowing (ok possibly knowing) that they turned down a chance to allow these things to happen, and knowing that they have a nice deal with Star Wars feels like a slap in the face.
Following the show for 7 seasons so far, I feel obligated to finish the show due to the amount of time I spent watching it. I need to know how the story ends. I wouldn’t walk out of a movie if the last 15 minutes of the movie is terrible, but I will if the first 30 minutes are.
The first 5 seasons were fantastic, so I’m not walking out.

Inadvertently, you are though. The first few seasons had the benefit of having s fantastic storyline already built, all they had to so was cut out some of the not as important stuff because on a screen, you dont get the luxury of time. The problem was always going to be how long do you tell this story on screen? You could make 15 seasons out of the books that are already written. Nevermind that the books were always meant to be slow played, with an 'infinite'timeline. Again, the TV show doesnt have the luxury of that.

The last couple seasons didnt benefit from a pre designed storyline. They had to make it up as they went and I dont think the disagreement is that writing coulsnt be better. There are definitely problems in seasons and 7 and 8. The disagreement comes, I think, in the sense of what you want to play out. Adding more NK and Bran backstory goes down a road that quite honestly, isnt all that interesting to the common viewer. More wouldve been nice, but going too in depth loses the audience. Spelling out every little detail is costly and tiresome, and you have to keep character timelines in mind, as well. The show does t get the benefit of keeping Maisie William's as a small girl forever, but the show timeline is much shorter than how long it took to film, etc.

Theres a lot more to consider than just " they had more time, they just didn't want to use it."

I'd have loved 10 seasons, but even then, is that enough? GRRM did so well in going through details that I think if you tried to portray that all, you lose half your audience due to "non action", and I think the general reaction to episode 1 and 2 of this season even speaks to that.

 

[Starat327]

I actually loved the Golden Company as a literal joke. In terms of total screen time, they didn't get but a minute or two in mention or action combined over two seasons, but instead were a comic illustration of just how futile Cersei's efforts ultimately were always destined to be.

I'm just saying if you wanted to designate time for more 'storytelling', thatd be the first place I go. I dont mind them being there for the reason you mentioned, though.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Similar to the amount of Dothraki and Unsullied that are still alive, the Throne room will just magically be clear sans roof.

That Dothraki line looked pretty thin but that was a boatload of Unsullied.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I actually loved the Golden Company as a literal joke. In terms of total screen time, they didn't get but a minute or two in mention or action combined over two seasons, but instead were a comic illustration of just how futile Cersei's efforts ultimately were always destined to be.

They're the Quentyn Martell of the show. Minimal investment in terms of story-space relative to everyone else, leading to a hilarious end that illustrates a point.

 

[Ruck Over]

Inadvertently, you are though. The first few seasons had the benefit of having s fantastic storyline already built, all they had to so was cut out some of the not as important stuff because on a screen, you dont get the luxury of time. The problem was always going to be how long do you tell this story on screen? You could make 15 seasons out of the books that are already written. Nevermind that the books were always meant to be slow played, with an 'infinite'timeline. Again, the TV show doesnt have the luxury of that.

The last couple seasons didnt benefit from a pre designed storyline. They had to make it up as they went and I dont think the disagreement is that writing coulsnt be better. There are definitely problems in seasons and 7 and 8. The disagreement comes, I think, in the sense of what you want to play out. Adding more NK and Bran backstory goes down a road that quite honestly, isnt all that interesting to the common viewer. More wouldve been nice, but going too in depth loses the audience. Spelling out every little detail is costly and tiresome, and you have to keep character timelines in mind, as well. The show does t get the benefit of keeping Maisie William's as a small girl forever, but the show timeline is much shorter than how long it took to film, etc.

Theres a lot more to consider than just " they had more time, they just didn't want to use it."

I'd have loved 10 seasons, but even then, is that enough? GRRM did so well in going through details that I think if you tried to portray that all, you lose half your audience due to "non action", and I think the general reaction to episode 1 and 2 of this season even speaks to that.

You're moving the goalposts. If @Defect says he is only comparing the show to the show, and you interpret that as comparing the show to the book, you've misconstrued his intents and are now arguing a different subject. A lot of criticism falls on D&D and their decision making process. If those actions can never be isolated for critical review in part or whole, then there is no basis for a reconciliation of kneelers and freefolk.


There were a lot of loose ends prior to season 8's beginning. Add on top of that we knew there'd only be 6 episodes when there's usually 10 (or 7 in S7). Knowing the recent advance pacing of the show from seasons 6 & 7, one could've reasonably expected season 8 to be fast paced as well. When the first two episodes were as slow as molasses (RIP Umber child), people were rightfully miffed, the show had reverted back to season 4 and previous pacing. That stuff isn't on GRRM or the books, that's on the narrative approach and decision making of D&D. As a result, we've seen two glorious battle scenes that comprised most of one whole episode each, and one additional slower episode (s8e4) before the finale. Herky jerky story telling.

 

[Starat327]

You're moving the goalposts. If @Defect says he is only comparing the show to the show, and you interpret that as comparing the show to the book, you've misconstrued his intents and are now arguing a different subject. A lot of criticism falls on D&D and their decision making process. If those actions can never be isolated for critical review in part or whole, then there is no basis for a reconciliation of kneelers and freefolk.


There were a lot of loose ends prior to season 8's beginning. Add on top of that we knew there'd only be 6 episodes when there's usually 10 (or 7 in S7). Knowing the recent advance pacing of the show from seasons 6 & 7, one could've reasonably expected season 8 to be fast paced as well. When the first two episodes were as slow as molasses (RIP Umber child), people were rightfully miffed, the show had reverted back to season 4 and previous pacing. That stuff isn't on GRRM or the books, that's on the narrative approach and decision making of D&D. As a result, we've seen two glorious battle scenes that comprised most of one whole episode each, and one additional slower episode (s8e4) before the finale. Herky jerky story telling.

I'm not though. The first few seasons were 100% book based. The last few weren't. It stands to reason that the last few seasons would be lesser in quality because they didnt have a strong base (read: the books) to base on. Any comparison of early season to later seasons is pretty much a comparison of books to non books.

 

[Ruck Over]

I'm not though. The first few seasons were 100% book based. The last few weren't. It stands to reason that the last few seasons would be lesser in quality because they didnt have a strong base (read: the books) to base on. Any comparison of early season to later seasons is pretty much a comparison of books to non books.

Regardless if D&D had a completed guide, or a sketch of a guide, or just an inkling of an idea, they still made the decisions to put forth what they did. Them standing on the shoulders of others does not absolve them from still standing. It's a vacation of responsibility that they were able to tell a better story when copy+pasta from someone else's work.

I get from this that D&D cannot be criticized because they couldn't copy someone else's work. They should be absolved from any criticism because it's not their fault even though they are the two individuals in charge of the creative process.

 

[Rodu58]

 

[Beef Invictus]

Lots of NSFW Australian ranting, but this is on point.

 

[Ruck Over]

That Dothraki line looked pretty thin but that was a boatload of Unsullied.

There were also more northmen/wildling looking fellows where I'd expect more of the Vale forces. Tormund makes reference to returning North, so wildlings should be at a minimal if any. And since Sansa was against going to fight at KL (especially in the immediate) it'd reckon those North houses would side with her and forgo a trip down South as well.

But hey, it was a cool scene, visually pleasing, so who cares how many Unsullied there were. They are an elite fighting force, the best of Essos. So they could hold their own against any non-dragon/non-squisher opponent and survive.

 

[Ruck Over]

Best analysis of the show around. NSFW language used.

 

[Starat327]

Regardless if D&D had a completed guide, or a sketch of a guide, or just an inkling of an idea, they still made the decisions to put forth what they did. Them standing on the shoulders of others does not absolve them from still standing. It's a vacation of responsibility that they were able to tell a better story when copy+pasta from someone else's work.

I get from this that D&D cannot be criticized because they couldn't copy someone else's work. They should be absolved from any criticism because it's not their fault even though they are the two individuals in charge of the creative process.

No, that's not what's being said. You've missed the mark again. I've already said the writing could be better, in fact, I I thays been covered in spades. The problem is you and others wanted it to be a seamless transition from a script to work off of and not see a drop in quality when the story had to be developed by people who had the disadvantage of 5000+ pages of backstory but no clear end game to work towards. All of the characters were set out on a path, but at any time, any of them could die and it would grossly affect the story.

If you cant separate the book based episodes from the non book based, you're going to be sorely disappointed. I prefer to judge them separately, and while they're flawed, they're a lot more enjoyable than the "lol arya cant jump that far" give them credit for. They are still good episodes, but not great like they were, and they're just not playing out to everyone's wants and hopes, despite everyone apparently not having any.

 

[Jack Straw]

Skelton Ned, HorseNed, Skyleton Ned, or the Night King.

It's going to be Gendry and his big hammer.

 

[TimeZone]

This Season has just been a complete cluster-f*** disaster.

I knew I was going to be disappointed when I found out the Season was only six episodes, but not even I could imagine they would sink this low.

 

[Ruck Over]

No, that's not what's being said. You've missed the mark again. I've already said the writing could be better, in fact, I I thays been covered in spades. The problem is you and others wanted it to be a seamless transition from a script to work off of and not see a drop in quality when the story had to be developed by people who had the disadvantage of 5000+ pages of backstory but no clear end game to work towards. All of the characters were set out on a path, but at any time, any of them could die and it would grossly affect the story.

If you cant separate the book based episodes from the non book based, you're going to be sorely disappointed. I prefer to judge them separately, and while they're flawed, they're a lot more enjoyable than the "lol arya cant jump that far" give them credit for. They are still good episodes, but not great like they were, and they're just not playing out to everyone's wants and hopes, despite everyone apparently not having any.

I am sorely disappointed, that's why myself and a few others often share our less than rosey opinions of the show.

And again, you miss the mark, again. D&D went into this project with the knowledge the book series was incomplete. They had a discussion with GRRM and apparently knew enough to satisfy GRRM's whims they could competently tell the story. I'm guessing they discussed his book release timeline, and whatever the answer, they obviously went forward with the TV show.

So, they have the written books, book 5 coming out a few months after the first tv show. How they decided to make the original episodes pace, which characters to include or cut, those were all D&D decisions. Had they started the show differently, even further from the books, maybe they're not in the same position now as they are. Forest Gump is a very good movie (I'd say great but there are detractors from it.) The book it was based on? Whoa nelly is that thing wild and fun, but incoherent, and the movie did a lot of trimming, a LOT. D&D had that available to them. The book series was already popular, but not nearly the cultural phenomenon it is now, way way down the list under the LotR. If D&D decided to lean on the books so heavily in the first few seasons that was a narrative choice they made. That's my point, the whole show is about their decisions, not the source of the material. They could've made better decisions then, which would theoretically be more consistent to what they are doing now.

But hey, we both think we're right and the other individual is wrong.

 

[Beef Invictus]

There were also more northmen/wildling looking fellows where I'd expect more of the Vale forces. Tormund makes reference to returning North, so wildlings should be at a minimal if any. And since Sansa was against going to fight at KL (especially in the immediate) it'd reckon those North houses would side with her and forgo a trip down South as well.

But hey, it was a cool scene, visually pleasing, so who cares how many Unsullied there were. They are an elite fighting force, the best of Essos. So they could hold their own against any non-dragon/non-squisher opponent and survive.

In the end it's not like they needed many soldiers.