OT: All Things Game of Thrones II (The thread is dark and full of spoilers)

[Starat327]

There's been great moments of this season but its been marred with poor writing like last season. I guess Dany just "fast traveled" north of the wall to find Jon Snow and co.

Or that the NK threw a spear and killed Viserion and Drogon almost was taken out by Bronn. She had to lose Rhaegal to a scorpion as well?

There's far better writing to be created if one wanted to reduce the plot holes and lack of depth to the story.

Oh, one of the 'raven' people. Now I understand.

What I dont understand is what makes the NK throwing an ice spear at a dragon to kill it 'bad writing', but to be honest with you, I dont even want to go down that road. Content to just agree to disagree here, because I can tell by this post that the screenplay could have been you winning the lottery and you'd have complained about the amount won not being enough.

 

[Starat327]

Well, when people claim stuff comes out of nowhere despite it being set up for a decade. Which seems to be pretty common. Or when they make flat-out incorrect claims to support criticisms that collapse upon any sort of scrutiny.


My favorite is when people throw out stuff like "THIS WOULD'VE BEEN BETTER" and it's just garbage. Like, "Bran warging a dragon to stop it would've been best!" Yeah, no, that would be way worse.

You say you have no expectations. That's obviously false. You obviously have many expectations and you're upset that it isn't going the way you wanted. Well, that's how movies, books, and shows often go. I truly don't understand why you guys torment yourselves with something you despise. It's super easy to not watch. It's even easier than watching. Or are you all addicting to complaining?

You didn't hear? If enough people post frowny emojis to @gameofthrones Twitter, they're going to have to re-shoot the final episode! Then we can have a super detailed, non fantasy ending to our.....fantasy series. Dany actually dies of cardiac arrest. Jon's battle wounds catch up to him (you know, the ones he was brought back from the dead from). There will be no dragons because....well, they're not realistic at all. Once that's all done, the states of Westeros all compete for sovereignty a la 600 or so a.d Europe and ultimately noone sits on the throne. We always wanted a histo-docu this whole time. We just never knew it!

 

[Psuhockey]

The writers were done with this show and wanted to do other things and the cast knew it.

 

[mja]

I think it was rather fitting how Cersei and, to a lesser extent, Jaime died. KL was the Lannister seat of power and I believe Cersei was inextricably tied to it. All she had built and defended literally and figuratively came crashing down on top of her.

Exactly. The show didn't give us what we wanted, which was to see Cersei the villain die a horrible but enjoyable death. It instead gave us a broken woman in the arms of her brother/lover as he comforted her as her entire world literally crashed down upon her. We were denied gratification. That's not bad writing. That's subversive writing.

People complaining about the show going Hollywood make no sense to me. The Hollywood ending is Jon and Dany valiantly fighting and defeating the evil Cersei, but with Jon dying in Dany's arms / Dany pregnant with the child who will go on to bring peace to the 7 kingdoms, ruling wisely.

Instead, we have a character who has always been an egotist, who has always felt entitled to rule, who's always been ready to use violence to accomplish her goals, with a bit of a sadistic streak, who couldn't parse her own hypocrisy in ending slavery but strictly adhering to absolute monarchy predicated on heredity and her monopoly on weapons of mass destruction, isolated and alienated, unloved by the foreign people she's come to 'liberate', having lost her closest friends and two of her 'children', betrayed by one of her advisors, continuously failed by another, and rejected by her lover who also now has a better claim to the one thing that's given her whole life meaning up until that point. She snaps and she just so happens to be riding a dragon when she does it. And it's not just snapping, there's political value to her laying waste to the entire city. She will never be accepted as queen by the people of Westeros, not with Jon's secret out of the bag; she will only ever be accepted as queen through terror.

Emilia Clarke is not my favorite actor on the show, but she killed it this episode. When she makes the choice to raze the city (by the way, the blood-thirsty army unleashing it's rage on the innocents is far more aligned to actual history than the Hollywood version where the good guys restrain themselves out of honor and chivalry), so many competing emotions and thoughts are beautifully playing out on her face. She wrestles with the choice but finally succumbs to her worst impulses and rage, and we don't get the Hollywood war, with clearcut good guys to root for and bad guys to hiss. We got war in all of its horror.

This has all been set-up by the way, since way back when her brother got his crown. This has been the endgame since before the first book was published. Some people just didn't realize it because most (definitely not all) of the time that Dany has used violence it has felt justified and we were rooting for her.

 

[Lindberg]

Oh, one of the 'raven' people. Now I understand.

What I dont understand is what makes the NK throwing an ice spear at a dragon to kill it 'bad writing', but to be honest with you, I dont even want to go down that road. Content to just agree to disagree here, because I can tell by this post that the screenplay could have been you winning the lottery and you'd have complained about the amount won not being enough.

You completely misunderstood what I wrote, not surprising. My point was that Dany never seemed to apparently learn that spears are able to kill her dragons. It almost happened to Drogon, and it happened to Rhaegal and Viserion.

Or better yet they could have simply asked Bran what Cersei's plans were at Kings Landing but that must be some out of the box thinking.

 

[Lindberg]

Well, when people claim stuff comes out of nowhere despite it being set up for a decade. Which seems to be pretty common. Or when they make flat-out incorrect claims to support criticisms that collapse upon any sort of scrutiny.


My favorite is when people throw out stuff like "THIS WOULD'VE BEEN BETTER" and it's just garbage. Like, "Bran warging a dragon to stop it would've been best!" Yeah, no, that would be way worse.

You say you have no expectations. That's obviously false. You obviously have many expectations and you're upset that it isn't going the way you wanted. Well, that's how movies, books, and shows often go. I truly don't understand why you guys torment yourselves with something you despise. It's super easy to not watch. It's even easier than watching. Or are you all addicting to complaining?

As I previously mentioned they could have asked Bran what Cersei's plans were because its obvious he can see into whoever's past he chooses. I'm not upset that its not going the way I wanted I'm pissed off they wrote such a bad ending with so many plot holes.

Dany going mad at the sounding of the bells is just such poor/bland writing. If you're accepting of substandard writing good on you I guess.

 

[Starat327]

Exactly. The show didn't give us what we wanted, which was to see Cersei the villain die a horrible but enjoyable death. It instead gave us a broken woman in the arms of her brother/lover as he comforted her as her entire world literally crashed down upon her. We were denied gratification. That's not bad writing. That's subversive writing.

People complaining about the show going Hollywood make no sense to me. The Hollywood ending is Jon and Dany valiantly fighting and defeating the evil Cersei, but with Jon dying in Dany's arms / Dany pregnant with the child who will go on to bring peace to the 7 kingdoms, ruling wisely.

Instead, we have a character who has always been an egotist, who has always felt entitled to rule, who's always been ready to use violence to accomplish her goals, with a bit of a sadistic streak, who couldn't parse her own hypocrisy in ending slavery but strictly adhering to absolute monarchy predicated on heredity and her monopoly on weapons of mass destruction, isolated and alienated, unloved by the foreign people she's come to 'liberate', having lost her closest friends and two of her 'children', betrayed by one of her advisors, continuously failed by another, and rejected by her lover who also now has a better claim to the one thing that's given her whole life meaning up until that point. She snaps and she just so happens to be riding a dragon when she does it. And it's not just snapping, there's political value to her laying waste to the entire city. She will never be accepted as queen by the people of Westeros, not with Jon's secret out of the bag; she will only ever be accepted as queen through terror.

Emilia Clarke is not my favorite actor on the show, but she killed it this episode. When she makes the choice to raze the city (by the way, the blood-thirsty army unleashing it's rage on the innocents is far more aligned to actual history than the Hollywood version where the good guys restrain themselves out of honor and chivalry), so many competing emotions and thoughts are beautifully playing out on her face. She wrestles with the choice but finally succumbs to her worst impulses and rage, and we don't get the Hollywood war, with clearcut good guys to root for and bad guys to hiss. We got war in all of its horror.

This has all been set-up by the way, since way back when her brother got his crown. This has been the endgame since before the first book was published. Some people just didn't realize it because most (definitely not all) of the time that Dany has used violence it has felt justified and we were rooting for her.

I appreciate this post.

 

[Starat327]

You completely misunderstood what I wrote, not surprising. My point was that Dany never seemed to apparently learn that spears are able to kill her dragons. It almost happened to Drogon, and it happened to Rhaegal and Viserion.

Or better yet they could have simply asked Bran what Cersei's plans were at Kings Landing but that must be some out of the box thinking.

You're completely misunderstanding what the 3ER does. Theres honestly nothing left to talk about here.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Bran isn't Bran. I don't even think he cares if the Starks survive anymore.

Let alone the fact that that's not what the 3ER does.

 

[Starat327]

Bran isn't Bran. I don't even think he cares if the Starks survive anymore.

Let alone the fact that that's not what the 3ER does.

Why stop there? The 3 ER should have just let everyone know that the NK was gonna do and saved everyone from fighting. Story's over and everyone goes home happy.

 

[Beef Invictus]

As I previously mentioned they could have asked Bran what Cersei's plans were because its obvious he can see into whoever's past he chooses. I'm not upset that its not going the way I wanted I'm pissed off they wrote such a bad ending with so many plot holes.

Dany going mad at the sounding of the bells is just such poor/bland writing. If you're accepting of substandard writing good on you I guess.

Bran is kind of far away. You also assume he cares. The thing he cares about is over.

Bran has made it very clear that he's done what he needed to do to take down the NK, and even that was as hands off as possible, letting humanity manage it or fail. He doesn't care about the rest.

You whine about bad writing while stumping for worse writing.

 

[Starat327]

We want less predictable endings!
*Cersei dies a very metaphorical death that no one expected*
What terrible writing about killing Cersei!

We want less predictable endings!
*Dany follows 7 seasons worth if buildup to her characters arc*
Danys change came out of nowhere!

 

[Lord Defect]

Then why have Bran continued to be portrayed in any aspect as a member of the family still? Why tell Theon he is a good man? Why be present for the true name revealing? Why be present during the pre battle build up?
If he mentioned that he now was beyond caring about minute details of humankind and only cares that they continue to exist in the grand scheme?
Have him state his intentions as a finite thing and not portray him on the thresholds of 3ER and sulking emo kid?

 

[Starat327]

Then why have Bran continued to be portrayed in any aspect as a member of the family still? Why tell Theon he is a good man? Why be present for the true name revealing? Why be present during the pre battle build up?
If he mentioned that he now was beyond caring about minute details of humankind and only cares that they continue to exist in the grand scheme?
Have him state his intentions as a finite thing and not portray him on the thresholds of 3ER and sulking emo kid?

Are we seriously forgetting that the entire point of the NK attacking winterfell was, in fact, to kill the 3ER? Or are we just going to pretend being present in a battle plan that is being designed to protect you is a bad thing?

Honestly, it's just nitpicking to nitpick at this point.

 

[Lord Defect]

Are we seriously forgetting that the entire point of the NK attacking winterfell was, in fact, to kill the 3ER? Or are we just going to pretend being present in a battle plan that is being designed to protect you is a bad thing?

Honestly, it's just nitpicking to nitpick at this point.

No. Not at all. I’m not talking about that and I think you know it. I’m talking about him still being portrayed at that point as a member of the family, as Bran and not strictly as the 3ER. Having him interact with others as if he still cares and then having him chill in the chair in the courtyard as if he doesn’t. The back and forth.
Having him partially care when it suited the writers was pure fan service, if only for the sake of Theon, and it did not fit a character that is no longer human and does not care about humanity beyond the grand scheme of things.
Do as you wish as long as your actions do not set off a chain reaction that ends humanity. Other than that the 3ER doesn’t care about the details.

 

[Juicy Pop]

Are we seriously forgetting that the entire point of the NK attacking winterfell was, in fact, to kill the 3ER? Or are we just going to pretend being present in a battle plan that is being designed to protect you is a bad thing?

Honestly, it's just nitpicking to nitpick at this point.

That's one of those plot points that feels so flimsy. Why exactly does Bran matter? If he had left him alive and had gone on to scour the continent, then who exactly is that 'complete history' even going to be useful to?

I might have believed that Bran was actually an important objective if he actually did anything significant after the battle.

 

[mja]

You whine about bad writing while stumping for worse writing.

This, this, a thousand times this. That's the thing that drives me crazy. There are definitely valid complaints to be had with the writing / show, but some people's notions on what would be better is mind-bogglingly awful.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

I don’t know how anyone can view the outcomes of the 3ER and Lord of Light mysticism as anything but disappointing in show form. Enormous aspects of the show that didn’t have any clever reveals or conclusions. They just turned out to be fantastical mechanisms to tie up other plot lines. I’m hoping for something a lot more satisfying related to each in the books.

 

[Starat327]

No. Not at all. I’m not talking about that and I think you know it. I’m talking about him still being portrayed at that point as a member of the family, as Bran and not strictly as the 3ER. Having him interact with others as if he still cares and then having him chill in the chair in the courtyard as if he doesn’t. The back and forth.
Having him partially care when it suited the writers was pure fan service, if only for the sake of Theon, and it did not fit a character that is no longer human and does not care about humanity beyond the grand scheme of things.
Do as you wish as long as your actions do not set off a chain reaction that ends humanity. Other than that the 3ER doesn’t care about the details.

I sont remember bran being a part if the family much at all. He may have been in the room, but hes incredibly despondent and emotionless to everything that's going on. I dont see telling someone who is about to die for you as being heavily emotional, especially when you had the capability to see everything theyve done on their arc to get to that point.

To be clear, I'd have loved some additional backstory here, but it's pretty close that it was cut to make room for action scenes. If you ended season 7 and didnt expect 8 to be incredibly tome lapsed from a story perspective, you were watching a different t show than the rest of us. We all knew that stories were gonna be compressed.

This isn't directed to you as much as a general populace thing: during episode 1 and 2 the outcry was too much story. Episode 3 was too unrealistic (oh. And too dark). Episode 4 was too much story. And episode 5 is just unbelievable, apparently. Theres no way to end the story to make everyone happy (myself included), but for everything you want to add, you've gotta offset it with something else coming out. The only egregious waste of time this season to me has been the golden company. I personally enjoyed the Jamie euron battle, but can at least understand why others thought it unnecessary. Wrongly had just played too big of a role in the last two seasons to not give him an on screen death, though. He killed a dragon, destroyed danys fleet, and several other momentous parts of the plot.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Looking at odds of who will sit on the Iron Throne how the f*** is Bran the top?

Eff that.

 

[Starat327]

Looking at odds of who will sit on the Iron Throne how the **** is Bran the top?

Eff that.

Howland Reed is going to sit on the iron throne.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Howland Reed is going to sit on the iron throne.

Skelton Ned, HorseNed, Skyleton Ned, or the Night King.

 

[Lord Defect]

I sont remember bran being a part if the family much at all. He may have been in the room, but hes incredibly despondent and emotionless to everything that's going on. I dont see telling someone who is about to die for you as being heavily emotional, especially when you had the capability to see everything theyve done on their arc to get to that point.

To be clear, I'd have loved some additional backstory here, but it's pretty close that it was cut to make room for action scenes. If you ended season 7 and didnt expect 8 to be incredibly tome lapsed from a story perspective, you were watching a different t show than the rest of us. We all knew that stories were gonna be compressed.

This isn't directed to you as much as a general populace thing: during episode 1 and 2 the outcry was too much story. Episode 3 was too unrealistic (oh. And too dark). Episode 4 was too much story. And episode 5 is just unbelievable, apparently. Theres no way to end the story to make everyone happy (myself included), but for everything you want to add, you've gotta offset it with something else coming out. The only egregious waste of time this season to me has been the golden company. I personally enjoyed the Jamie euron battle, but can at least understand why others thought it unnecessary. Wrongly had just played too big of a role in the last two seasons to not give him an on screen death, though. He killed a dragon, destroyed danys fleet, and several other momentous parts of the plot.

Does your opinion change at all that D&D apparently turned down additional time, money and season(s) to wrap the story up?

 

[Starat327]

Does your opinion change at all that D&D apparently turned down additional time, money and season(s) to wrap the story up?

Not without the rationale as to why, no. If they had taken the first few seasons as 'stall time' to allow GRRM to finish the next book so they could continue along, and GRRM didnt deliver, absolutely not.

If they said no (and yes, I know they said 73 hours is what they foresaw) to additional time because they were being primadonnas and they thought they could tell the story better? Sure.

I feel like its somewhere in between. It's a TV show that got really big, really fast, so they needed to pander to the non book readers by doing things that will upset people like you and I, and I accepted that. I'm also extremely high on GRRMs writing, and feel as though trying to draw out a story that woulsve tried to mimic his storytelling would have failed miserably. The show is 1000% more tolerable when you just break it into a pre and post book series and judge them accordingly as opposed to pretending that the post-book storyline was ever going to live up to the book stories.

 

[Starat327]

Skelton Ned, HorseNed, Skyleton Ned, or the Night King.

Plot twist: Syrio Forel was never confirmed dead. Syrio for king.