All Purpose Trade / Roster Building Thread - start of 2021 season edition

[LakeLivin]

Can the Canes loan Jarvis to a team in one of the European leagues next season? I don't think he's eligible for the AHL, and juniors really don't seem to make much sense for him. If I'm not mistaken, that route worked out pretty well for Austin Matthews.

 

[MinJaBen]

Can the Canes loan Jarvis to a team in one of the European leagues next season? I don't think he's eligible for the AHL, and juniors really don't seem to make much sense for him. If I'm not mistaken, that route worked out pretty well for Austin Matthews.

You are conflating his playing in Europe prior to the draft with this situation. He has played in the NHL since his first eligibility; he was never loaned.

 

[LakeLivin]

You are conflating his playing in Europe prior to the draft with this situation. He has played in the NHL since his first eligibility; he was never loaned.

So if the Canes don't keep Jarvis with the big team, are you saying they'd have to keep him in juniors, with no option of loaning him a European team? Didn't know if the age thing was limited to playing in the AHL.

 

[Lempo]

Can the Canes loan Jarvis to a team in one of the European leagues next season? I don't think he's eligible for the AHL, and juniors really don't seem to make much sense for him. If I'm not mistaken, that route worked out pretty well for Austin Matthews.

Yes. Sellgren for example is signed by Canes and Loaned to SHL.

Unless there is some crazy ass rule in some transfer agreement. Boys of 18 and 19 who were drafted from Europe need to be offered back to the team they were transferred from if they don't make it to the NHL roster before they can be loaned to AHL, but I'm not aware that the NHL/CHL transfer agreement would have a rule that boys drafted from CHL can't be loaned to Europe. Though, they do have the rule about the AHL, so it is very possible there may prohibition about loaning to other associated leagues than CHL (and it just doesn't come up as usually the AHL is where they would be loaned to).

It's actually a damn good question.

 

[Lempo]

Actually, let's make it a "no":

In this agreement is the rule we all should know, but often forget: CHL players drafted by NHL teams who are 18 or 19 can play in the NHL or the CHL only.

Nick Robertson, the CHL Transfer Agreement and You

There is a download link to the agreement in the artice, but I can't copy text from it. But yes, a 18-19 old player not retained in NHL must be assigned the Junior Club of the CHL he last played with or has contractual obligations to.

A conditioning loan to the AHL for an injured NHL player is allowed.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I think Trocheck could be a longer term piece depending on price. He turns 29 in the offseason he becomes UFA so a 4 year deal or so isn’t too ridiculous. But that depends on whether they still see Necas as a C or a RW.

Re: Gardiner, I think any deal waits on the expansion draft. If they can’t sign Hamilton and lose a D to Seattle, they need Gardiner and he may be in the top 4.

How does he fit in next season's Top 4? Big minutes with Slavin isn't happening. 2nd pairing with Pesce was unpalatable before and in that case, that likely means Skjei eating top pairing minutes with Slavin. Gardiner and Skjei playing together full-time with one on his off-side to boot and club with championship aspirations don't quite go together.

If a replacement for Hamilton in the Top 4 is brought in from outside the organization, Gardiner is again an inefficiency on the 3rd pairing at his AAV. Not only that, but he's redundant with Bean, assuming he becomes the 3rd D protected, ready for that same sheltered, puck moving LD spot.

The cap structure is more logical with a ~$4 mil 3rd liner and a 1 year, ~$1.5 mil type veteran/Euro FA on the 3rd pairing than the other way around.

 

[Chrispy]

How does he fit in next season's Top 4? Big minutes with Slavin isn't happening. 2nd pairing with Pesce was unpalatable before and in that case, that likely means Skjei eating top pairing minutes with Slavin. Gardiner and Skjei playing together full-time with one on his off-side to boot and club with championship aspirations don't quite go together.

If a replacement for Hamilton in the Top 4 is brought in from outside the organization, Gardiner is again an inefficiency on the 3rd pairing at his AAV. Not only that, but he's redundant with Bean, assuming he becomes the 3rd D protected, ready for that same sheltered, puck moving LD spot.

The cap structure is more logical with a ~$4 mil 3rd liner and a 1 year, ~$1.5 mil type veteran/Euro FA on the 3rd pairing than the other way around.

I’ve liked the look of Gardiner-Pesce more than Skjei-Pesce this season.

If Hamilton stays, one of Bean/Skjei/Fleury/Gardiner goes to Seattle. Then you have a point that Gardiner is too expensive for a bottom pairing.

If Hamilton is gone, one of Skjei/Fleury/Gardiner goes to Seattle. Now the top 4 is

Slavin-XXX
Skjei/Gardiner-Pesce

If Fleury is the pick, I could see Slavin-Skjei and Gardiner-Pesce if a new RHD isn’t signed. If Skjei is the pick, bring in a RHD and Gardiner slots right into the second pairing with Bean-Fleury as a good bottom pairing.

The other issue is the market besides Hamilton for an offensive RHD is Barrie and then not great: Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[spockBokk]

I’ve liked the look of Gardiner-Pesce more than Skjei-Pesce this season.

If Hamilton stays, one of Bean/Skjei/Fleury/Gardiner goes to Seattle. Then you have a point that Gardiner is too expensive for a bottom pairing.

If Hamilton is gone, one of Skjei/Fleury/Gardiner goes to Seattle. Now the top 4 is

Slavin-XXX
Skjei/Gardiner-Pesce

If Fleury is the pick, I could see Slavin-Skjei and Gardiner-Pesce if a new RHD isn’t signed. If Skjei is the pick, bring in a RHD and Gardiner slots right into the second pairing with Bean-Fleury as a good bottom pairing.

I don’t think they’ll put Gardiner into a 2nd pairing slot again unless they have to. I too think he has played well next to Pesce, and next to Fleury for that matter. However, they keep scratching him in favor of Bean. I don’t think Bean has been that impressive lately and wouldn’t mind sitting him in favor of a Fleury-Gardiner 3rd pairing, but they seem dead-set on keeping Bean in the lineup.

I’m not sure if Gardiner is hurt or what the reason may be, but I don’t think RBA will ever trust him with more than 20mins a night.

I don’t think Hamilton is irreplaceable, especially with his play so far this season, but I hope they don’t have to replace him. Though again, I don’t really anymore think they will end up re-signing him.

 

[LakeLivin]

Actually, let's make it a "no":



Nick Robertson, the CHL Transfer Agreement and You

There is a download link to the agreement in the artice, but I can't copy text from it. But yes, a 18-19 old player not retained in NHL must be assigned the Junior Club of the CHL he last played with or has contractual obligations to.

A conditioning loan to the AHL for an injured NHL player is allowed.

One sliver of hope is that the NHL/CHL Transfer Agreement expires after this season. They'll probably extend it for another year (which is what they did last year), but one can always hope that they come to their senses and put in some kind of exception that would cover players like Jarvis.

 

[Lempo]

One sliver of hope is that the NHL/CHL Transfer Agreement expires after this season. They'll probably extend it for another year (which is what they did last year), but one can always hope that they come to their senses and put in some kind of exception that would cover players like Jarvis.

'Tis the sort of hope the lottery companies have based their business on.

 

[Chrispy]

I don’t think they’ll put Gardiner into a 2nd pairing slot again unless they have to. I too think he has played well next to Pesce, and next to Fleury for that matter. However, they keep scratching him in favor of Bean. I don’t think Bean has been that impressive lately and wouldn’t mind sitting him in favor of a Fleury-Gardiner 3rd pairing, but they seem dead-set on keeping Bean in the lineup.

I’m not sure if Gardiner is hurt or what the reason may be, but I don’t think RBA will ever trust him with more than 20mins a night.

I don’t think Hamilton is irreplaceable, especially with his play so far this season, but I hope they don’t have to replace him. Though again, I don’t really anymore think they will end up re-signing him.

I agree Hamilton is not irreplaceable but the market this offseason looks subpar.

If they lose Hamilton, who do you bring in? Pay almost as much for Barrie? Larsson and then try to figure out the PP with Bean (assuming no Gardiner)? Not many good options to replace Hamilton on the PP; I think Bean and Gardiner are the best options if they won’t pay Hamilton’s price.

edit: if you’re down Hamilton and Gardiner and one of Skjei/Fleury, that leaves you Slavin, Pesce, Bean, and Fleury/Skjei. That removes almost all the d depth in one offseason. I’d much rather hang onto Gardiner in that scenario.

 

[LakeLivin]

'Tis the sort of hope the lottery companies have based their business on.

Yeah, I know.

 

[spockBokk]

Gardiner dealing with an upper body injury, per Tripp. That makes some sense with him being out the past few games.

 

[MinJaBen]

So if the Canes don't keep Jarvis with the big team, are you saying they'd have to keep him in juniors, with no option of loaning him a European team? Didn't know if the age thing was limited to playing in the AHL.

I’m not saying he can’t be loaned to Europe (I doubt it), but your example was irrelevant to the question as it never happened.

That said, I doubt there is a big loophole in the CHL agreement like what would be necessary to allow sending a player to the European equivalent of the AHL.

 

[poobags]

'Tis the sort of hope the lottery companies have based their business on.

This is poetry.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Is Bean, dare I say, a left shot replacement for Adam Fox?

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Is Bean, dare I say, a left shot replacement for Adam Fox?

Not sure he controls the play quite at the same level but obviously he’s still getting a feel for the NHL. His instincts certainly seem to be spot on and I’d say he’s holding his own well enough in the defensive zone. Not a bad comparison... wish we could have had both

 

[Lempo]

Is Bean, dare I say, a left shot replacement for Adam Fox?

Why? Are Rangers offering 2nd + 2nd?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Why? Are Rangers offering 2nd + 2nd?

They might if we ask!

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

I’ve liked the look of Gardiner-Pesce more than Skjei-Pesce this season.

If Hamilton stays, one of Bean/Skjei/Fleury/Gardiner goes to Seattle. Then you have a point that Gardiner is too expensive for a bottom pairing.

If Hamilton is gone, one of Skjei/Fleury/Gardiner goes to Seattle. Now the top 4 is

Slavin-XXX
Skjei/Gardiner-Pesce

If Fleury is the pick, I could see Slavin-Skjei and Gardiner-Pesce if a new RHD isn’t signed. If Skjei is the pick, bring in a RHD and Gardiner slots right into the second pairing with Bean-Fleury as a good bottom pairing.

The other issue is the market besides Hamilton for an offensive RHD is Barrie and then not great: Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

November 2021 --> Rumor: Carolina in the market for a Top 4 RHD

My view on the inefficiency of Gardiner even sans Hamilton is predicated on Skjei being around next season. Perhaps he serves a purpose if both Skjei and Hamilton are gone. However, I don't see Skjei as much of a risk of being selected by Seattle. This team isn't going to pay the Kraken to take him. I don't think he's worth much to the league in this environment; he's an okay 4th best defenseman on a good team with a remaining commitment that doesn't add to his value. There are better opportunities to leverage cap space and lesser chances to grab a young piece that can slot into the lineup right away elsewhere in the league.

 

[Chrispy]

I've said this before, I think Skjei could easily be Seattle's target if the options are Skjei, Gardiner, Fleury:

Fleury is 25 before next season, Skjei is 27.
Fleury is signed for 2022 then is arbitration eligible. He can be UFA after 2024.
Skjei is signed through 2024. So same level of control but Skjei is more expensive.

Skjei can shown to be able to play a lot more minutes and against tougher competition than Fleury. I think Francis could see Skjei as a top pairing guy for Seattle year 1. That's worth the salary he is making and I doubt Francis finds a better D exposed this off-season.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

As you pointed out, Skjei is 27. He's played 300+ NHL games. He is what he is. A Leddy or de Haan can soak up top pairing minutes on a rebuilding team out of the chute.

If Francis is looking for a Nate Schmidt-esque surprise, Fleury would be the better gamble based on his pedigree.

 

[bleedgreen]

I've said this before, I think Skjei could easily be Seattle's target if the options are Skjei, Gardiner, Fleury:

Fleury is 25 before next season, Skjei is 27.
Fleury is signed for 2022 then is arbitration eligible. He can be UFA after 2024.
Skjei is signed through 2024. So same level of control but Skjei is more expensive.

Skjei can shown to be able to play a lot more minutes and against tougher competition than Fleury. I think Francis could see Skjei as a top pairing guy for Seattle year 1. That's worth the salary he is making and I doubt Francis finds a better D exposed this off-season.

Fleury was playing top four minutes well in the NHL when he was 20/21 years old. Under Francis. Francis likely disagrees with Fleury’s path since and I’d be really surprised if he didn’t think Fleury is equal or better than Skjei defensively.

I think he’s better than Skjei defensively. I’d be fine with Fleury playing in Skjei’s spot next to Pesce next year.

Skjei’s selling point is his open ice skating, and the way he transitions moving forward once out of his own end as well as his ability to get back when he gets deep offensively. He lacks poise with the puck in his own end, and doesn’t seem to have a naturally defensive brain. He’s kind of a more developed Hanifin.

I could see Francis being paid to take Skjei and not minding it because the salary helps them and the player will have a good role. He’s not a bad choice but I doubt Francis wants Skjei over Bean or Fleury. Elevating Skjei to an even higher role likely makes him worse.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd say Fleury-Pesce reminds me of de Haan-Pesce, but since those 2 played a total of 83 minutes together over 72 regular season and playoff games, I don't think most of us have a good recollection of that.

At this point you can argue Fleury can eat more minutes, but I think we have evidence he's a D with little offensive ability, a less physical de Haan. Is that a D you build around, especially in Seattle?

Bean (or Slavin) makes much more sense with Pesce than Fleury if both Bean and Fleury remain in Carolina next year.

 

[WolfOfBroadStreet14]

What is the deal with Fleury? He’s someone I liked a lot in his draft year but haven’t followed him much since. I’ve seen him being traded in some armchair GMs recently and wondered what it’s take to acquire him.

also what’s his potential like at this stage and what has he turned into?