All purpose trade/roster building thread part 12

[Chan790]

I'm not sure "ignored" is necessarily quite the best word. I mean, we've obviously (as the Canes) had Irbe & Ward who were both pretty great at their peak...I can't speak to the Whalers as I didn't watch much NHL hockey then and it was mostly before my time. And holy **** have we TRIED to get good goalies by taking some flyers and gambles (just look at all the goalies we've had in the past decade)...I think for some reason this franchise just fails to identify the talent OR somehow destroys them. Ward is the last NHL quality goalie we drafted. Now obviously JR didn't care much about drafting or prospects, and even moreso when it came to goalies, so that was an especially dark time while we rode Ward into the ground. We've reused, recycled, tried our AHL goalies, and just nothing has worked out very well for a long time now. Guys like Lack and Darling LOOKED like they could become the guys to make the jump, and they absolutely imploded here. We do finally have some decent darts with Maki & Koch (and a few longshots), but they're a few years out at best. Granted when there are goalies like Lehner out there for the taking and we go with Mrazek/Reimer that definitely brings up some questions about ignoring the glaring goalie problem, BUT we don't know if the failure was our end or just no interest from his part (same with other high-profile UFAs and goalies)

You've hit on something I've thinking, but haven't found a good way to talk about.

With his addiction and mental health history, considerations on how an organization is going to handle your issues if you relapse or have a reoccurence of your mental health has to be a factor when choosing a team to play for.

I've never gotten the sense anybody thinks the Canes handled the Darling situation well...and if I'm Lehner, I might listen to a Canes offer to use it to increase my market and AAV...but I wouldn't sign here because of it.

 

[DaveG]

Darling was a situation that was impossible to handle well. Dude gets paid, moves away from his family support system in Chicago, and then basically spends his off-season eating at Bojangles all the time coming in to camp bordering on Keith Tkachuk levels of overweight.

The team also got him in touch with a sports psychologist, let him take leave when needed to deal with the family situation last year, and pulled strings with USA hockey to get him in to the world's team in a low pressure situation.

Sometimes a dumpster fire situation is just always going to be a dumpster fire. And we got burnt, bad. If anything where we went wrong was in not pulling a Jake Dotchin when he came to camp that overweight.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I've never gotten the sense anybody thinks the Canes handled the Darling situation well...and if I'm Lehner, I might listen to a Canes offer to use it to increase my market and AAV...but I wouldn't sign here because of it.

It is very difficult to know how much of the Darling situation was the organization and how much was him. I will say he was given a full season to figure himself out, and still handed a chance to be a 1a the season after that. I don't recall the timeline but I don't know if any of us ever knew the full behind the scenes story (was he just out of shape and unfocused after the payday which began a spiral, was the spiral started by a dip back in to prior vices, etc).

I didn't think the Canes were unfair to him given the circumstances and his play, including giving him an extended personal leave of absence. If anything they were accommodating; most players playing at his level would be shown the door fairly quickly.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Sometimes a dumpster fire situation is just always going to be a dumpster fire. And we got burnt, bad. If anything where we went wrong was in not pulling a Jake Dotchin when he came to camp that overweight.

Agreed. I know the scene had nothing to do with his fitness, but that video from training camp of him being wheeled in on a cart really did become a humorous caricature of his play that first year.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I understand the thought process though. If Mario can't get through these two blue columns despite being made of paper, it was a safe assumption a puck couldn't get past Scott Darling.

 

[Chrispy]

...I think for some reason this franchise just fails to identify the talent OR somehow destroys them. Ward is the last NHL quality goalie we drafted....

...and signed.

Because it never gets old, **** Andersen and his agent.

 

[Svechhammer]

We went above and beyond for Darling hoping he's work himself through his issues. The fact that he was still technically a member of the team until we traded him this past offseason is impressive because most teams would have sent him packing a long time before. Not only did we give him a chance after coming to camp severely out of shape, but then we still gave him a chance after putting up numbers that are essentially going to be remembered as essentially the Mendoza Line for goaltenders. And yet, we still had faith in him.

If I was a player, that's the kind of team I'd want to play for. Eventually doing things like this and having this kind of reputation will pay off, even if its not immediate.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

We went above and beyond for Darling hoping he's work himself through his issues. The fact that he was still technically a member of the team until we traded him this past offseason is impressive because most teams would have sent him packing a long time before. Not only did we give him a chance after coming to camp severely out of shape, but then we still gave him a chance after putting up numbers that are essentially going to be remembered as essentially the Mendoza Line for goaltenders. And yet, we still had faith in him.

If I was a player, that's the kind of team I'd want to play for. Eventually doing things like this and having this kind of reputation will pay off, even if its not immediate.

Yeah I’m not sure how anyone would blame the team in any way/shape/form for what Darling did to himself. He was given a lot of rope and he extended it as far as it could go.

 

[Stickpucker]

The whole goalie thing is so weird because it seems like there are always some good ones available but we're never in on them...we rather roll the dice on some guy "rebounding" or "finding his potential"

MAF was available...I don't know if JR would've traded him in the division...but look what he's done for Vegas. Lehner has been available for a few seasons....Greiss and Halak have been undervalued and available on and off over the last 8 years while constantly putting up good numbers. All of these guys better than what I can recall in the last 20 years save one or two years of Cam's time here.

Halak is a guy I've seen as pretty good for 10 years...but he keeps getting kicked around the league and no respect...even after he single handedly won some playoff series for some bad teams. We've never even shown interest in the guy. No clue what's up with that.

Maybe loyalty to guys who aren't performing??

 

[Svechhammer]

The whole goalie thing is so weird because it seems like there are always some good ones available but we're never in on them...we rather roll the dice on some guy "rebounding" or "finding his potential"

MAF was available...I don't know if JR would've traded him in the division...but look what he's done for Vegas. Lehner has been available for a few seasons....Greiss and Halak have been undervalued and available on and off over the last 8 years while constantly putting up good numbers. All of these guys better than what I can recall in the last 20 years save one or two years of Cam's time here.

Halak is a guy I've seen as pretty good for 10 years...but he keeps getting kicked around the league and no respect...even after he single handedly won some playoff series for some bad teams. We've never even shown interest in the guy. No clue what's up with that.

Maybe loyalty to guys who aren't performing??

Would not be shocked if analytics is playing heavily into our goaltending situation. Once you get above a certain price point, you probably hit diminishing returns on how much benefit it provides a team when it means you have to make tougher decisions elsewhere. We might not have the guys who are going to put up the absolute best numbers that we can afford, but we're getting guys who are putting up numbers good enough for us to compete while spending as much as we can on the rest of the roster because we're getting them for pennies on the dollar while their value was low.

 

[DaveG]

Iirc Fleury only made himself available to Vegas. He had a full nmc and could control where he went.

I get Kevs point here overall. We just never have had a guy that's just solidly top 5 in the league in net for an extended time. We've had some short blips of excellence from Ward, Irbe, Burke, and Liut but those were typically 4 years max and aside from one year of Liut they were never a surefire top 3 guy league wide. Feels like us and maybe Ottawa are the only teams that haven't had a guy that can be either top 10 for a 7-8 year stretch or top 3 for a 4-5 year stretch since the team entered the league.

Burke had that potential but he wanted out after the move to Greensboro. Giggy had the potential and we traded him. Ward had the potential and looked like he was going to do it until we ran him into the f***ing ground. Andersen.... f*** his agent.

 

[WreckingCrew]

...and signed.

Because it never gets old, **** Andersen and his agent.

Ugh, yea, fair point, the one time since Ward we DID draft a decent goalie he said "hell no"

The whole goalie thing is so weird because it seems like there are always some good ones available but we're never in on them...we rather roll the dice on some guy "rebounding" or "finding his potential"

MAF was available...I don't know if JR would've traded him in the division...but look what he's done for Vegas. Lehner has been available for a few seasons....Greiss and Halak have been undervalued and available on and off over the last 8 years while constantly putting up good numbers. All of these guys better than what I can recall in the last 20 years save one or two years of Cam's time here.

Halak is a guy I've seen as pretty good for 10 years...but he keeps getting kicked around the league and no respect...even after he single handedly won some playoff series for some bad teams. We've never even shown interest in the guy. No clue what's up with that.

Maybe loyalty to guys who aren't performing??

I'm with you on Halak, I long thought he could be a good stop-gap or 1A/1B type option, he consistently puts up pretty much .915-.920 anywhere he goes (except NYI 17-18 he had .908 in 54GP). Guess we'll see this year, we have 2 expiring goalies after next season with Lehner/Markstrom coming up as potential UFA targets

 

[Svechhammer]

At a certain point we are going to have to shit or get off the pot when it comes to Ned. He has nothing more to prove at the AHL level, we are going to have a spot open for someone to come in an compete next year, and we're probably only a year or two away from bringing Kotchetkov over to see what he can do stateside. Honestly, that's probably what had me the most bummed out about the lockdown happening, because it robbed us of a chance to really see what Ned could do at this level.

 

[AD Skinner]

I've posted about the goalie strategy a few times and I really think (at least under the current borg) they'll continue on a carousel of so-so and affordable until it burns them. Mcelhinney may have low key saved the season last year and he was a waiver claim. Reimer has been adequate if not better than that, and they got him for dumping Darling who was an unmitigated disaster. Look at bobrovsky in Florida; they sign him to a gigantic deal and he's pedestrian. If you aim for league average you're more likely to hit it than trying to go hunting for elite, and then you have space/money to fill out the rest of the roster

 

[A Star is Burns]

At a certain point we are going to have to shit or get off the pot when it comes to Ned. He has nothing more to prove at the AHL level, we are going to have a spot open for someone to come in an compete next year, and we're probably only a year or two away from bringing Kotchetkov over to see what he can do stateside. Honestly, that's probably what had me the most bummed out about the lockdown happening, because it robbed us of a chance to really see what Ned could do at this level.

Is getting off the pot moving on from him? Do that one.

 

[DaveG]

Is getting off the pot moving on from him? Do that one.

It is if we can get something of value for him. Hypothetical but say Arizona would take him for Raanta to create room to sign Hall to an extension, and Ottawa would take Reimer for a mid round pick after his bonus, does anyone say no to that?

 

[Chrispy]

It is if we can get something of value for him. Hypothetical but say Arizona would take him for Raanta to create room to sign Hall to an extension, and Ottawa would take Reimer for a mid round pick after his bonus, does anyone say no to that?

I wouldn't play hardball over the pick with Ottawa at that point. Conditional 7th on Reimer's play, since re-signing conditionals are apparently illegal now? OK.

 

[Svechhammer]

It is if we can get something of value for him. Hypothetical but say Arizona would take him for Raanta to create room to sign Hall to an extension, and Ottawa would take Reimer for a mid round pick after his bonus, does anyone say no to that?

I might try to offload Mrazek to Ottawa instead, but I wouldn't break things off if they insisted on Reimer.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I might try to offload Mrazek to Ottawa instead, but I wouldn't break things off if they insisted on Reimer.

While I agree, Reimer will only make 850k but have a 3.4 million cap hit. That is Ottawa's wheel house.

 

[DaveG]

I might try to offload Mrazek to Ottawa instead, but I wouldn't break things off if they insisted on Reimer.

Dorion probably would not care which but Melnyk is all about those cap hits that are millions more than they're actually being paid

 

[Svechhammer]

While I agree, Reimer will only make 850k but have a 3.4 million cap hit. That is Ottawa's wheel house.

But it also gives us a decent buffer in salary for the upcoming Hamilton/Svech negotiations.

At the same time, we have also proven that we don't give a fuuuuu about offloading someone to free up room for someone else, so that probably won't even matter down the line.

Hell, the way we operate, I could see Mrazek, Reimer, and Ned all moved this offseason, picking up someone like Lehner in free agency, and thinking Forsberg has what it takes to back him up, because... reasons

 

[DaveG]

I wouldn't play hardball over the pick with Ottawa at that point. Conditional 7th on Reimer's play, since re-signing conditionals are apparently illegal now? OK.

Yeah i wouldn't be picky. Even getting one year of competence in net from getting rid of Darling is a huge f***ing win to begin with.

 

[DaveG]

But it also gives us a decent buffer in salary for the upcoming Hamilton/Svech negotiations.

At the same time, we have also proven that we don't give a fuuuuu about offloading someone to free up room for someone else, so that probably won't even matter down the line.

Hell, the way we operate, I could see Mrazek, Reimer, and Ned all moved this offseason, picking up someone like Lehner in free agency, and thinking Forsberg has what it takes to back him up, because... reasons

Beautiful thing about a proposed trade for Raanta is he's an impending UFA after next season.

 

[Svechhammer]

Beautiful thing about a proposed trade for Raanta is he's an impending UFA after next season.

And then we get to do the goalie shuffle for a 4th straight offseason?

Oh, now that's something that'll get your nips hard.

 

[A Star is Burns]

I think I'd just stick with what we have over Raanta. When he's healthy and on, sure, he's probably better. But I don't want to deal with his frequent lack of availability.